womens attitudes to crossdressing

[calikid]

hi everyone,

i write this as a response to the numerous comments on a variety of posts regarding reaction to any stories where crossdressing is a subject. Firstly i'd like to make it clear that i am male and as such appreciate i may be laying myself bare to the onslaught of comment that is likely to come my way. although male i love to wear "womens clothes". What I would like to know is simply why shouldn't I. can anyone give me one valid reason why I shouldn't? because I have never been able to think of one.
I am happily married with two dds and a beautiful wife , all of whom i love very much. My wife knows all about my dressing and has been with me to a couple of tv gatherings. i told her not long after we got together and she was totally fine with it, we have been married now for 8 yrs. we do not let the children know as they are still quite young.
In all other respects I am very much one of the lads......I like football and beer (but then so do many women!), i work in construction, I teach martial arts, I help with housework , I don't mind ironing(coz i can do it while watching tv!)
I take a size 10 and look pretty good in a skirt and heels, but then so does my wife, its just she can do it whenever she pleases and good for her. its just the injustice and ignorance of society that infuriates me.
I'm curious to know how the rest of women feel about the issue

Policewomen wear uniform as do men

just by challenging some of the negativity and ignorance i've encountered on here perhaps a miniscule of education has been shed

I would say this is a fairly safe place to try and raise awareness.

I would also say that your style of posting and patronising comments won't endear your cause.

If you could just listen to some of the very valid opinions shared and take on board that people are prepared to be frank and honest in response to your initial enquiry: "I'm curious to know how the rest of women feel about the issue", you might realise that, on this thread at least, most women don't have a problem with men in skirts or dresses.

Don't forget, it's normal everyday wear for some men in certain cultures.

You have stated that you want to wear a dress or skirt, as a man. No wig, no makeup, no heels, no stuffed bra. Overwhelmingly, the women on this thread have said, fine. No problem. They might not want to be married to you but they respect your right to sit in your local, having a pint in a dress.

You have also stated that the only reason you wear all the paraphenalia is because of the circles you move in. If you don't 'look like a woman' they ostracise you.

So it seems that the real problem lies, not with women, but with the men dresssed as women that you currently choose to socialise with.

this post is a joke ......... i hope !

What's the difference between sensual and sexual in this circumstance?

When I wear trousers I don't feel sexual or sensual. I am just wearing trousers.

I don't have any sort of 'experience'. I just put clothes on.

I know you call it sensual and not sexual. but the fact that it's either makes it not about clothes, surely?

I still don't care if someone chooses to wear trousers, skirts or dress as a fish , but I don't understand all the it's not sexual it's sensual stuff. As though that makes some sort of massive and important difference.

It's still not just wearing clothes, is it?

MY XH was a CD.
He was actually the sort of person that Lucylloyd describes - he was always pushing the boundaries and yes he had sex with men, whilst dressed as a woman.
I do know that some of the CDs that my XH mixed with had very similiar attitudes to him.
IMO consenting adults can do whatever they like, but I don't want to be in a relationship with some one who always wants more.

I cannot see any reason at all why Lucy should be ashamed of her self.
Maybe she is speaking through experience too.
I think it is you with a bad attitude - sorry if that offends.

cali but you're not educating anyone. You just sound so closed and angry. You're not listening and you're being extremely negative.

You're giving your cause a bad name, tbh.

?lucy,.......sorry but its been a while since i've heard such stereotypical, uniformed codswallop. To assume that all cds are on the slippery slope to having sexual relations with another man is absolute nonsense, and its this sort of ignorance that perpetuates the concept that men who are anything but macho in actions and appearance are unworthy as mates. you shouild be ashamed of yourself.?

Firstly, I have worked as a Trustee for one of the country?s leading Transgender groups, so I speak from experience.

I didn?t say ?all cds are on the slippery slope to having sexual relations with another man?, I said, ?Men .. have an irresistible desire to explore. Dressing ( harmless in itself) becomes not enough, they want to go out, shop and socialise as a woman. That is where the problems can start. Most women are hetero sexual, so most women enjoy relationships with men. And the logical conclusion to chasing the female goal is a relationship with a man.?

Most men, in my experience, who start to explore cross dressing overwhelmingly identify as heterosexual. Most men, in my experience, who then progress to going out in public and socialising en femme fantasise about, or practise, sex with men.

One of the big problems for cross dressing men is that they genuinely don?t know themselves where it will all end- which is a big problem for their partners.

I said nothing of macho appearance and behaviour, and many women like a more rounded man, perhaps even with some feminine traits. That is quite different from asking a woman to accept a male partner who wishes to dress to attract men.

Of course some men just like to dress in women?s clothes, that is fine. Why, is a question that some don?t ask themselves.

I didn't name change, I just left! there was a thread I couldn't handle and then I left and got a real life... but now I am back a little bit... just a small bit...

You cannot separate the clothes from the context in my opinion. I very firmly agree, an have said before, that there is a massive difference between wearing clothes and dressing up in the attire which is used to pigeonhole, oppress and sexualise women. Cali you seem extremely confused about which of these things you are doing, about what exactly it is you want to do, what you are here for. You are, I agree, understandably defensive. That said, you started this thread. Your stated aims being to educate wimmin. You absolutely have to take responsibility for that provocation. Hundreds of posts later you have not properly articulated your feelings about crossdressing or countered the concerns raised about gender stereotyping and sexism. Men can just wear skirts nowadays and make up, whatever, your point seems to be that you have some kind of monopoly on the fear of being verbally or physically attacked on the street based on your clothing, that is also insulting in the context of the high levels of street and workplace harassment women face based on their biology, children and the elderly face based on their age and the unacceptably high levels of violence levelled against all vulnerable people. I just think there is a lot you need to examine about yourself before you arrogantly try to educate other people about anything.

"there is a massive difference between wearing clothes and dressing up in the attire which is used to pigeonhole, oppress and sexualise women. Cali you seem extremely confused about which of these things you are doing" - Offred

That is the nature of the beast Offred.

The thread title is about women's attitudes to cross- dressing, the reply to which is generally relaxed.

A tougher question is the extent to which the motivation for cross dressing has the potential to be corrosive within a conventional male/female heterosexual relationship, the reply to which is it can be very corrosive.

If a man wants to dress, and behave and be treated like a woman, fine. But if he wants to explore his sexuality whilst retaining the safety of a heterosexual relationship, and male mode when it suits him, the woman may quite reasonably decide that she is not to be used as an insurance policy or safe harbour.

there is a massive difference between wearing clothes and dressing up in the attire which is used to pigeonhole, oppress and sexualise women

In a nutshell.

Yay, Offred is back

fairenuff, hello! :)

cali - what does lucy need educating about specifically? The proposition that some people take to crossdressing because they are not psychologically comfortable with homosexual tendencies and find it easier to explore them within a form of heterosexual sexual role play surely is pretty logical and I'm sure it is correct.

That does not preclude men, hetero or homo sexual, from wearing skirts or "women's" fabrics (I'm unsure I really understand the genderisation of fabric but anyway) or high heels or makeup which are things currently in this extremely small collision point of culture, geography and history considered "feminine"... If they want without it being sexual or about sexual or gender confusion...

I dispute the idea that a man would be attacked in the street for this because it is not my experience although simultaneously I can understand why you might be afraid to try this out. However, that said, if you are not prepared to put your head above the parapet in order to defend or promote your rights then please do not be so presumptive as to turn back and make prejudiced attacks against another group of people.

If that is what you were doing.... there was an awful lot of " I look damn good in a dress" type of language that was offputtingly self-promoting....

Cali: No one needs educating by someone with your attitudes.

Personally I would never, ever have a relationship again with a man who was a CD or who had any sort of fetish.
I spent 30 years married to a CD.
I went to events and enjoyed chatting the the CDs and hearing their stories.

I've chatted to the Birkenhead Tranny (his own name) in the shop he/she works in - no problem.

BUT my XH was obsessive about it.
Our lives revolved round it to the exclusion of anything else.

If I see a man in a skirt - no problem, though I think men dressing up as little girls is very, very questionable and it does actually make me feel quesy.

can you see what people are saying? I have great sympathy with some of the principles espoused BUT I suspect your behaviour and attitudes are increasing hostile responses which seem to come primarily from; 1. women who are concerned about sexism, 2. women who are concerned about Lucy's point, that crossdressing is sometimes a way of covertly and safely exploring questions about sexuality and 3. heterosexual women influenced by the same ideas about gender as a lot of cross dressers (clothing is gendered) and who find their partners less attractive when they self-identify as the gender they are not sexually attracted to.

I don't think any of these things are really down to education are they? Can you not understand why the first two are valid and logical concerns and why the third is as valid a personal choice as putting on a sensual fabric?

Well, Lucy said:

'Firstly, I have worked as a Trustee for one of the country?s leading Transgender groups, so I speak from experience.'

So she must be pretty knowledgable. Perhaps you have something to learn from her?

Unless that Transgender group was called The Beaumont Society. They don't like anything in the least bit 'poofy'.

You can't really say "Transvestites this" or "Transvestites that". The term has to cover anything from people with a fetish, to repressed homosexuals, to more or less transsexuals. Some use their cross-dressing as an excuse to shag about, others don't and are deeply disgusted and embarrassed by those that do.

And some wives and partners are fine with it, some aren't.

lets look again at the BIG picture and ignore all the stereotyping going on. firstly let me say that I genuinely don't think that those of you with whom I disagree on some points are against what I espouse in general, and surely you wouldn't be taking the time to post if you were. its more the appreciation of the bigger underlying factors which cause many of the issues to which lucy alludes which need addressing.
I contest that the majority of cds who proceed to dress publicly fantasise or practise sex with men. this in my experience is categorically not true, and if that is lucys experience then it may be more to do with the cohort with which she has come into contact and not the cd population as a whole. it is certainly not representative of all cds !

I'm not sure lucy said it was... However perhaps you can see conversely why it might be irritating that you presume to educate "women"... ya know, as an entire group...

Either way, you've failed to deal with any of the points again:

Sexism? Issues with one's own sexuality? Gender stereotyping? What exactly you believe/feel?

Why can't you wear a skirt and heels when you want?
largely self-imposed restrictions I believe...

Why is any of the other shit even comment worthy?
"I am happily married with two dds and a beautiful wife , all of whom i love very much. My wife knows all about my dressing and has been with me to a couple of tv gatherings. i told her not long after we got together and she was totally fine with it, we have been married now for 8 yrs. we do not let the children know as they are still quite young." and "In all other respects I am very much one of the lads......I like football and beer (but then so do many women!), i work in construction, I teach martial arts, I help with housework , I don't mind ironing(coz i can do it while watching tv!)
I take a size 10 and look pretty good in a skirt and heels,"

Why, if you are coming to educate women frame the post as a question and end it with "I'm curious to know how the rest of women feel about the issue"? You have not been remotely interested in how the select group of women on this thread feel, other than to use it to support this internal persecution complex you have....

I genuinely don't think that those of you with whom I disagree on some points are against what I espouse in general

I'm still unclear as to what you do 'espouse in general'

This was your original point:

i love to wear "womens clothes". What I would like to know is simply why shouldn't I. can anyone give me one valid reason why I shouldn't? because I have never been able to think of one

You are starting from the premise that 'women' object to you wearing a skirt or dress. Where have you got this from? Have you ever been out just wearing a dress without the wig, bra, heels etc. If so, who has objected? Just women, or men too. Which men? Just random men in the street or the men you socialise with?

You have been too vague to make a proper point or enable a proper discussion. You keep bringing it back to the fact that 'women' are against you wearing a dress when in fact the problems you face involve all members of society, male and female alike.

Anyone who looks different will stand out. That's just life. If you shave your head and cover yourself with tattoos and piercings people will look at you and make a judgement. It's not possible to be strikingly different and not attract attention, positive and negative.

If you want to blend in, you will have to start small. Start wearing a publicly acceptable 'male' skirt, like a kilt. Wear it regularly to and from the local shops, etc. until your neighbours get used to it and it's not unusual anymore. Then you can start to add to your outfit. Gradually. If you really want to just wear floaty, sensual clothes, this will be easy.

If you want to dress 'as a woman', that is a different matter which attracts all the speculation discussed above. But you say you don't, so that doesn't apply to you does it?

?just listen to the shit lucy is coming out with and tell me again that she doesn't need educating!? Calikid

What education do you have in mind?

?lets look again at the BIG picture and ignore all the stereotyping going on. I contest that the majority of cds who proceed to dress publicly fantasise or practise sex with men. this in my experience is categorically not true, and if that is lucys experience then it may be more to do with the cohort with which she has come into contact and not the cd population as a whole. it is certainly not representative of all cds !? calikid

Maybe it is you who seek to represent one view, your view, as the stereotype?

I emphatically do not generalise or stereotype, I think that the T community is diverse in its practise and motivation. I respect whatever experiences you have as presented in good faith.

There is no doubt that the strength of T desires varies. My own experience is that there is a distinction between those who dress for solitary pleasure at home, and those who venture outdoors to interact as a woman. Passing, and the pursuit of passing, can be obsessive. Typically overtly feminine wear tends to be favoured, skirts and heels over trousers and flats. That may also be wear that is seen to be overtly sexually attractive. That then begs the question ?attractive to whom??

T pornography also has a pronounced bias in favour of ultra feminine imagery, and masculine domination.

I am not surprised by your aggressive reaction to my points, because I have found that the very nature of emerging T?s is that they have ?the urge? without understanding it, and it is only by exploring that they can understand, which makes it so difficult for wives to deal with. By agreeing to their man exploring they are endorsing the possibility that he may wish to transition, therefore losing him, or he may wish to explore sexual encounters with men, which would be unacceptable to most women. But by denying him that exploration, all that she is left with is a frustrated partner.

A man who socialises en femme is seeking third party validation, otherwise why bother?

"A man who socialises en femme is seeking third party validation, otherwise why bother?"

again you suggest that a man is seeking the sexual attention of men. this is the point with which i contest. yes that may be the case in many cases but it is definitely not the case is all cases! There are plenty of men who enjoy the trappings of feminity and equally plenty of women who enjoy those of masculine clothing. They aren't about seeking the attention of other women are they? They are just dressing in a way they feel comfortable.

I don't contest that some cds do fall into this category but to emphasise that by dressing like this you are reinforcing a barrier to heterosexual females that should they have a relationship with someone who does then there is a high probability that they may be seeking more and this undermines the overall impression and enhance perpetuates the predjudice. this then leads to fear of discovery and secrecy which then leads to mistrust and an undermining of the relationship

why bother?

we bother because we enjoy wearing the clothes and often the most acceptable way to do this is trying to appear as invisible as possible to minimise negativity. its almost easier for society to deal with a man dressed and made up to look female than a man wearing the same outfit and presenting as male.

I have often done the latter and i have received lots of negativity. Don't get me wrong i have received positive responses too but invariably its the negativity that sticks in the mind.
as i said earlier then reason i don't now is because of my concerns over the effect it would have on my children. I have always been honest with my wife and she is supportive, but she has similar concerns for the children.

Lucy do you enjoy wearing both trousers and skirts?