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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

womens attitudes to crossdressing

881 replies

calikid · 29/07/2012 01:16

hi everyone,

i write this as a response to the numerous comments on a variety of posts regarding reaction to any stories where crossdressing is a subject. Firstly i'd like to make it clear that i am male and as such appreciate i may be laying myself bare to the onslaught of comment that is likely to come my way. although male i love to wear "womens clothes". What I would like to know is simply why shouldn't I. can anyone give me one valid reason why I shouldn't? because I have never been able to think of one.
I am happily married with two dds and a beautiful wife , all of whom i love very much. My wife knows all about my dressing and has been with me to a couple of tv gatherings. i told her not long after we got together and she was totally fine with it, we have been married now for 8 yrs. we do not let the children know as they are still quite young.
In all other respects I am very much one of the lads......I like football and beer (but then so do many women!), i work in construction, I teach martial arts, I help with housework , I don't mind ironing(coz i can do it while watching tv!)
I take a size 10 and look pretty good in a skirt and heels, but then so does my wife, its just she can do it whenever she pleases and good for her. its just the injustice and ignorance of society that infuriates me.
I'm curious to know how the rest of women feel about the issue

OP posts:
Offred · 02/08/2012 08:00

So with respect do fuck off with your "educating society" bullshit. If you would like an actual discussion free from affected victimhood then go ahead.

izzyizin · 02/08/2012 08:07

I mean FFS people thatcher wore a skirt

Seems to me it's a shame Bliar didn't. Although of course that might mean we had even more of Mrs Bliar than we were forced to stomach was good for us.

Offred · 02/08/2012 08:08

And likeatonne - the misreading is apparently universal. I had a bee in my bonnet lovely phrase Grin about the op charging in to educate us all under the guise of having a discussion with a load of promotion of intolerance in himself and then ignoring the discussion in favour of high-fiving with his fans. He can do that if he wants, I don't care if you want to start a calikid/likeatonne/unicorn fan club, it doesn't intimidate me that you agree or bother me if you want to do that. It never has, I have never said it did. Pointing out that something exists is not the same as saying it shouldn't or that it's existence bothers you... Again with the extrapolations...

not even gonna read the rest of the crap you think I think

Offred · 02/08/2012 08:10

I think bliar probably did but society would never accept him so maybe he is forced to wear a bra to cd meet ups

Bliar is exactly the type of repressed intolerant right wing Tory to be prone to that sort of false logic...

Offred · 02/08/2012 08:15

So anyway, now I am feeling pretty riled about it and humourless and how it has taken escalating to the point of aggression and almost 700 posts to discuss something that was raised in the first few comments...

izzyizin · 02/08/2012 08:26

I've never seen Bliar as 'repressed' as such but, virtually, the reverse, Offred. As in a 2'-bit thespian or snake oil salesman full of himself.

And, of course, the religieuse in him gave rise to his belief that he was no less than God's annointed able to skate walk on the oily waters of Campbell's spin.

Offred · 02/08/2012 08:31

Yes, I see that too but I think he's repressed because I would be surprised if anybody had ever seen any part of him that is real. He suppresses everything about himself and contains it within an outer charisma, Cameron tries this too really except he is much shitter at it "I met a black man once".

Offred · 02/08/2012 08:31

Snake oil salesmen is what is required to attain the premiership.

Fairenuff · 02/08/2012 10:49

Well OP it seems that we are destined to be ships that pass in the night. I have caught up with the debacle debate and am going to make one massive post so that it will be easier for you to see my questions and respond.

< tries to be helpful > Smile

So, here we go

regards bra stuffing, if i dress to blend at a cd meeting yes i wear a bra and fill it, but the bottom line is if i had choice to dress as a man in "finery" i wouldn't bother as is frankly neither comfortable nor necessary

Ah, now I might be about to learn something here. Are you saying OP that even when at a cd meeting, you cannot just wear a skirt? You have to go the whole hog and stuff a bra? Unbelievable.

The very group that are asking to be accepted are discriminating against you? Is that right?

Or do you choose to wear a bra and wig.

i use cd meetings because they are the safest way of being dressed withiut recrimmination and to meet others other similar outlook, and dreess up fully at them cos everyone else does and yes its nice to dress up once in an while

Which is it, to conform or choice?

You are full of contradictions. Could you please clarify something. In an ideal world would you want to be a man in a skirt or would you want to be a man dressed as a woman?

You are making it sound as if you don?t really want to do the whole bra and wig thing but you do it because a) it helps you blend in and b) it?s fun to dress up!

The safest way of being dressed without recrimination

Recrimination from who? Surely you could arrive in the wig and bra and then once you are safe inside, remove them and just be yourself?

Or are we then back to the fact that you are choosing to dress in wig and bra because you prefer it? Which is it. You are not clear.

i don't bother with femme name as that as you say does come across as mimicry and thats not what i'm about

Or is it? What are you doing when you wear the wig and bra, if not mimicry?

i don't think the wearing of a dress should in any way undermine my masculinity in the same way the wearing of a trousers has in any way undermined womens feminity

It doesn?t! Have you actually read the thread? No-one has said that. We have all said that men around the world wear ?dress? type garments. For example in the Middle East and Africa and Asia and parts of Europe.

They don?t wear wigs and stuff bras, nor should you if that?s not what you want.

its the attitudes at cd meetings as to how good they appear dressedup. i repeat, i'd rather there wasn't the social pressure to look like women but better to just be men in dresses. and alot of cds end up conforming cos thats the scene and thats where most acceptance is

Here it is again. They sound like knobends. What are doing hanging around with people like that if it?s not what you believe, not what you want and not doing your self esteem any good.

What do you gain from meetings? Validation? Certainly not. Acceptance? Nope. Not that I can see from your posts.

Please would you explain what it is you get from meetings in full drag that you couldn?t get just dressed in a skirt. TIA Smile

padding bras or wearing a skirt is nothing to do with stereotyping women. its got everthing to do with wearing a skirt and then trying to avoid being ridiculed for doing so by trying to appear like the type of person who is accepted to be wearing a skirt. If a man could wear a skirt with no recrimmination, then there would be no need to pretend to be a woman by padding a bra

Like I said, men do and they don?t wear bras. There have been enough examples already on this thread. Who would you rather look like Eddie Izzard or Lily Savage? That?s your choice.

Why is there recrimination for a man dressed as a man and just wearing a skirt/dress but no recrimination for a man in full drag? Could you give some examples of your experiences. Who finds it more acceptable for you to wear a wig and bra? Genuninely, I am baffled by that one as it seems to me that if someone is going to attack you for wearing a skirt, surely that fact that you have all the trappings on isn't going to stop them?

And if it?s really what you want then maybe you should start your own club and march to Downing Street or something. Do something to make it more acceptable if that?s the only thing that?s stopping you.

I uderstand that you want to protect your kids but you can raise awareness without involving them more than you are comfortable with. I certainly think you could wear a skirt at home in front of them a la David Beckham. What's wrong with that?

Either way, time to burn your bra don't you think?

I think that?s it for now but if any other questions spring to mind, I?ll let you know Grin

< worries that the thread will fill up before I get any sensible answers >

TheDreadedFoosa · 02/08/2012 11:10

I woke up this morning thinking of this thread.
Realised i had not disclosed about dp/xp's CDing to anyone begore, here or in RL.
So to do so in response to your OP Calikid, and to get from you a snippy comment about a typo makes me wonder just how bothered or interested you actually are in the opinions/experiences of others? Not to mention your manners.
I feel you've come here to enlighten us, us women, about the politics of female clothing. We've fucking well been there, we live it. Thanks though.
And youre not some rare bird we all want to admire, a bloke in a skirt is not exotic, its a cliche.

TheSmallClanger · 02/08/2012 11:20

I remembered this last night. The one in the black vest top and gloves looks pretty nice, actually. No bras, wigs or heels, but a gang of men in swishy skirts.

Fairenuff · 02/08/2012 12:18

Clanger I love that link! Those men look fab and completely masculine.

Just shown it to my dcs and they agree.

There was a programme on a few weeks ago about people who are horders. One of the men featured liked to cross dress. There was another programme about losing weight where a 34 stone man lost about 10 stone in a year. He also happened to be a cross dresser. Both these programmes were on before the watershed and my dcs watched them with me. They did giggle a bit but were not scornful or nasty about these men. Cross dressing is much more mainstream than it used to be and prejudice is taught to children, not integral.

When my ds was about 10 years old, he had long hair. The man at the local chip shop thought he was girl and talked to him as if he was. This did not make my ds run home to cut off his long hair. He just told me with a laugh that 'the old guy down the chippy thinks I'm a girl, mum'. Even at that age, he recognised that the older generation don't necessarily keep up with what's new but that doesn't mean that he has to change to fit in with old fashioned views.

anairofhopeFORGOLD · 02/08/2012 15:03

There has been some really good post on this thread. My only concern is that the OP is not very informative.

I wish mn had a like button :-(

anairofhopeFORGOLD · 02/08/2012 15:19

Question: where and what is your wife doing when you are postng on here late at night?

Does having children and lack of sex or time with your wife make you want to wear skirts more?

anairofhopeFORGOLD · 02/08/2012 15:22

Are you scared about telling your children and think they will see you differently and have lots of questions? Do you think it will affect their lives and relationships?

anairofhopeFORGOLD · 02/08/2012 15:24

When do you intent to tell them?

Doez your wife dress up alot?

Do you pick her clothes?

How is your relationship with your wife right now?

Fairenuff · 04/08/2012 10:15

AF it looks like you were right after all. OP must have enough for his copy.

How do you spot them, is it some kind of radar or have you been on mn so long that it just jumps out at you? Grin

Faylalu · 13/11/2012 13:16

Hello Calikid, my husband crossdresses and he looks fantastic! He has recently 'come out' about it (about 7 weeks ago) and tbh it has done our relationship the world of good! We have always had a strong relationship (loving/good comms/great sex), but it has taken him so much courage and bravery to tell me what he wants to do - and why shouldn't he! It's def made us stronger - he can freely talk about what he likes, we discuss make-up and styles that would suit him. At first, I was a bit unsure as, I guess you would be because its new and very different - but he's still my husband NOTHING has changed. We go shopping together and we plan to go to some TV/CD events. He's very much a 'bloke', but just really likes womens clothes. We have a toddler and one on the way - we have decided to be open about dh's CD as we don't want it to be a 'big secret' - we want an open and honest family life and that means dh can 'girl up' without fear of what the children might think.

I get frustrated when read about women finding out that their partner is a CD - jesus, they're only clothes! And I doubt he'd be comfortable to walk about the streets in them - it's very much a private thing (unless you go to an event) so what's the big deal? He loves and feels he can trust them enough to tell them and all they do is be 'horrified' or 'heartbroken' - it's not like you've found out something really (Jimmy Savile) awful.

Anyway, Calikid, good on you! My dh likes 50's style rockabilly dresses (I bought him his first) and bright red lippy! He looks adorable in it!

MollySometimes · 23/11/2012 01:27

Perhaps it may help to hear from a crossdresser. I began when I was six or seven. I am in my eighties now. My dh hated it at first, but her intelligent curiosity prompted her to read current research and she finally accepted it in the privacy of our home. She had all the usual worries. Was I gay? No. The vast majority of male crossdressers are herterosexual. Did I want to become a women? No. The few who do are quite rare. We discussed and mutually agreed on certain rules, i.e., not outside the home, don't wear pink lingerie.
What she likes best about my dressing, which is primarily what I do to relax rather than ruin my liver with booze, is that I listen better and talk with her better when I am Molly.

tallwivglasses · 23/11/2012 01:51

Bloody hell this thread spans years!

Actually I quite like to see what my favourite mnetters we spouting on about before I was even aware of mumsnet.

FlatFacedArmy · 23/11/2012 09:42

This topic does make me quite uncomfortable.

I've always liked to think of myself as very open minded, and fairly easy going in such matters. My husband has a number of fetishes and I took them fairly well when he eventually came out with them, one by one. Cross dressing was one, but he initially said it was "just a prop for a particular fantasy". A bit of a leap for me, I thought I had an average vanilla marriage, though I knew his tastes in porn were on the kinky side, but ok. We had been together 9 years at this point.

After a while the outfits came out every time. He started to build up quite a collection, "borrowing" things he thought I wouldn't miss and did a lot of shopping online, on the high street and market stalls. To be honest, the more I saw him dressed up, the less I fancied him. Especially combined with some other fetish gear, I found it extremely off putting. I WANTED to be ok with it, but I wasn't. I think it was partly because I saw him put so much effort into buying clothes, shoes and sex toys for this new persona and he never bought anything like that for me. He didn't get me a card for our wedding anniversary that year and when I mentioned it got really snappy about not having time to go to card shops as he was working all day. The hypocrisy of him somehow having time to go to new look, river island or primark to buy tarty dresses designed for teenagers was lost on him. I felt that he'd found his ideal woman, and it wasn't the one he was married to. He planned sexy date nights with himself but never me. I felt redundant, like a spare part, one who was a killjoy and only seemed to be getting in the way.

We still had a great friendship, and we still had sex as often as ever - but I faked all my orgasms for a year. He knew I was getting uncomfortable with it, I started asking him to please not dress up as much (but he couldn't stop) then please not when I was around (and he used sneak out of bed in the middle of the night to dress up) and I remember the fight we had because I hadn't gone out with my friends at night for almost 3 weeks and he wanted time to himself... And eventually he got very defensive and hurt over my obvious revulsion and I felt I had already damaged that fragile trust enough that I couldn't voice any further discomfort out loud. I loved him and didn't want to hurt him, even though I was desperately unhappy. And angry, because my lovely sexy masculine husband had been replaced by a six foot TV fetishist in my clothes. And try as I might, I'm just not interested in that.

Eventually, about 18 months from the first time I saw him dressed up, I posted on another forum about losing the spark or something, and he caught me checking the replies on my phone. We had a long talk. He threw out all the girly clothes and hasn't crossdressed since to my knowledge. I didn't make him, he volunteered. (The bondage stuff stays and so do the heels, but no dresses, bras, thongs, fake boobs.) I didn't give him an ultimatum or anything. But I was honest and said that i didn't want to be in a relationship where I felt no attraction to the other person - especially as it was not just lack of attraction but a physical revulsion that I couldn't fight. I remember seeing him dressed up in my mind every time we had sex, having to fake it though i wanted to freeze and push him off, and blinking back tears over his shoulder when he finished. And trying not to let him see that because I loved him and didn't want to hurt him. It took a long, long time for that to fade.

Wow. That was cathartic! Grin sorry for the wall of text!!

ike1 · 23/11/2012 10:10

...that's one hell of a post FFA! Really highlights how TV can become a selfish act. Sorry but most men who dress up to look like women look crap anyway and I think this is why some women feel it is an insult to their gender

fromparistoberlin · 23/11/2012 10:19

ike1

thats a sweeping generalisation, saying "some women see it as an insult to their gender"

siorry but I had to flag it. I 100% get how flatface feels howver

FlatFacedArmy · 23/11/2012 11:17

Paris, I think putting the qualifier some women probably disqualifies it from being quite so sweeping a generalisation! Grin

Ike, there was a thread on wwyd a little while ago about CD and a few posters mentioned their DHs thought they looked so sexy and practically had to be torn away from admiring themselves in the mirror (as did mine) - one poster said "Mine thinks he looks HOT too! Are they all looking in the same magic mirror? He looks like a bloke in a skirt!"

Made me laugh. Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder... certainly all I saw was a sweaty man in a dress!

tisnottheseasonyet · 23/11/2012 14:01

If my DP forbade be from wearing anything which was too "manly" like jeans or trouser suits, I'd be having serious words with him, and I suspect a lot on here would be calling him a sexist pig.
Double standards.