womens attitudes to crossdressing

[calikid]

hi everyone,

i write this as a response to the numerous comments on a variety of posts regarding reaction to any stories where crossdressing is a subject. Firstly i'd like to make it clear that i am male and as such appreciate i may be laying myself bare to the onslaught of comment that is likely to come my way. although male i love to wear "womens clothes". What I would like to know is simply why shouldn't I. can anyone give me one valid reason why I shouldn't? because I have never been able to think of one.
I am happily married with two dds and a beautiful wife , all of whom i love very much. My wife knows all about my dressing and has been with me to a couple of tv gatherings. i told her not long after we got together and she was totally fine with it, we have been married now for 8 yrs. we do not let the children know as they are still quite young.
In all other respects I am very much one of the lads......I like football and beer (but then so do many women!), i work in construction, I teach martial arts, I help with housework , I don't mind ironing(coz i can do it while watching tv!)
I take a size 10 and look pretty good in a skirt and heels, but then so does my wife, its just she can do it whenever she pleases and good for her. its just the injustice and ignorance of society that infuriates me.
I'm curious to know how the rest of women feel about the issue

i don't want to pretend to be a woman, i only do that because of what is convenient

You have now entered the realms of pure, unadulterated, bolleaux.

What the effing fuck do you think you're doing dressing up as woman? Are you seriously trying to convince yourself, or those around you, that when you're in drag you don't want to pretend to be a woman even for a short time?

If the answer is no, the solution is simple. Stop dressing up as a woman and choose a more expedient convenient way of expressing your sexuality.

i don't deny mimicry is certain situations but is only because of the situations. as i've said long ago in thread i used to often go out dressed without make up or wig etc. now in my life with kids its not suitable, their protection comes first. and i do't don all the trappings at home. previously i have been out as a man plenty of times and hopefully have done my bit to show to society that a man can wear skirts without having to mimic women

not that one. x post.

the 'But I hope she'll realise that whether its a wiq or a miq there's no shame in holding true to one's own moral values when one's idols are revealed to have stuffed bras feet of clay' one.

i know it's wrong. but the stuffed bras/ feet of clay killed me.

cali, do you recognise any of the accusations of sexism with regard to the stereotyping of women you are doing? any of them?

you are padding freaking bras. you are reducing 'woman' to tits and what she wears (as long as it isn't jeans and a t shirt). you aren't after equality at all.what you are doing is propping up the status quo. in it's entire, flawed, 'women wear skirts, not men' entirety.

gender warrior my arse.

the looking good thing i referred to isn't my angle , its the attitudes at cd meetings as to how good they appear dressedup. i repeat, i'd rather there wasn't the social pressure to look like women but better to just be men in dresses. and alot of cds end up conforming cos thats the scene and thats where most acceptance is

padding bras or wearing a skirt is nothing to do with stereotyping women. its got everthing to do with wearing a skirt and then trying to avoid being ridiculed for doing so by trying to appear like the type of person who is accepted to be wearing a skirt. If a man could wear a skirt with no recrimmination, then there would be no need to pretend to be a woman by padding a bra!

'it's not suitable'.
why?

if they see you dressed at home (and by 'dressed', i don't mean 'dressed', i mean wearing a skirt, not in full garb), they will already associate it as perfectly normal. if you aren't dressing at all at home in front of the kids, you can't really be seen to be teaching them anything. so all of your 'society is so unfair' is being compounded by you. you are teaching your kids that women wear skirts. but you are popping on here to educate us? really?

look, i know it's not your fault that there are idiots around who beat up cross dressers. or cross dressers kids. but really, either you see it as something you want to change (and you make at least small inroads in that direction, like teaching your kids that it's ok, but that society frowns on it) or you run the risk of your kids turning out to be the sort of idiots that look on cross dressers as aberrant.

and i'm still not convinced about your motivation.

i'd love to believe that you'd leave the house in a frock with your hairy legs out, boots on, and a wekk's stubble, and pop off to the next meeting. but i don't. i'm equally not as sure that you've ever done that.

when was the last time you went out in public with a skirt on, but not 'dressed'? when was the last time you went out in public dressed?

what do you do when you go to your meetings? skulk out with your head down? or pop in and say 'night' to the kids with your earrings jangling? and then walk out to the car in your heels and wave bye to the neighbours?

i think you feel quite guilty about all this, and are quite glad that the kids give you a cover. and anonymous forums give you a bit of catharsis.

that's all fine.

but don't pretend it's because we, the readers of your threads, are in any way intolerant. i think it might have been better if we had all been repelled, tbh. that way you would have felt a bit vindicated.

well, whatever you want to wear, bra, padding, skirt, heels, whatever, i wish you well.

i'm sorry you aren't strong enough to be a man in a dress. without women taking it upon themsleves to wear trousers to huge societal discord, we would all still be in floor length skirts.

clothing does not have to be gendered. but you are making it so.

that's our whole point, cali.

and you are reinforcing more boundaries than you are breaking.

which i'm gutted about.

why the fuck can't a man wear a dress?

well, he can. but you prefer to go the whole hog and pretend to be a man imitating a woman. or at least you do that, to maintain the status quo.

it's so monumentally depressing.

i don't habve to wear skirts in irder to educate the kids that cd is ok. we only have to tell them its ok and challenge them if the come back from school with other ideas. in the same way we'd challenge them about being homophobic . doesn't mean we have to become gay to prove the point.

and yes i have gone out totaally as a man without all the garb, but as i've sasid many times, its not now appropriate where we are at in life. its better to maintain the quo for the sake of the kids and approach it when there is no chance that it could affect them. its no a gamble we are prepared to tke for the sake of furthering a cause. the children come first. Won't stop us educating them though.

i don't think you're intolerant, quite the opposite, you're having a very reasoned discussion.

but no i 'm not making clothing gendered, if i was i would n't weat skirts.

Well guess fucking what, honey? If more men wore skirts without bras, fishnets, stilettoes and other drag queen paraphenalia, they would become accepted as men who happen to opt for skirts over trousers in the same way that women whom opt for trousers over skirts without choosing to bind their tits, stick on fake sideburns and moustache, or stuff their crotch with socks, are not perceived as being raving dykes lezzies.

As a man who dresses as a woman, you are perceived by society as a man who is aping a woman. A man who is trying to be women. A man who may be trying to get his rocks off by pretending to be women so that he can be fucked by another man.

We wanted you to be a hero. And you've proved yourself to be just another tranny who's chosen to conform to all of the stereotypes that the word 'transvestite' implies.

izzy and mad, you'rer startin to drift towardfs accusations again. what would you do if your dh liked skirts, would you say fuck go out and challenge the stereotype and fuck wot anybody says to the kids at school and bullies then cos their dad is a cock in a frock, anfd then he loses his job cos the pricks he works with don't want a tranny on site and all the neighbours snigger when they go to the shop and they know its cos of their dad, so you end up selling the house and moving schools cos life has become intorerable. stress indoors cos dw says its all your fault, why weren't you just happy with dressing up at home instead of trying to be a hero!

thisd might be the extreme scenario, but when kids are involved its not a risk any responsible parent is going to take.

it's not appropriate.

but it's appropriate to sneak out in a wig, full slap, with fake tits? (oh and some clothes)

don't.get.it.

it may save you answering some awkward questions from the kids, which is convenient at the mo.

i quite agree that you shouldn't fake sexuality in order to educate your offspring. i'm not quite sure why you're faking gender behind your kid's backs. either it's appropriate to wear a skirt and let it be 'normality' in your house, or it's not.

how on earth is it better to sneak out once a month under the cover of darkness to go and validate other men dressed as women, when you haven't the metaphorical balls to even say to them 'well, this is a pile of horse isn't it? why are we going to all the bother of plucking and waxing and nonsense when all we really really wanna do is watch tv in a comfy frock?'

i'm slightly concerned that you profess to disagree with what the support group is doing on such a fundamental level, but you continue to go. it's alittle dishonest. disingenuous?

i mean, at least unicorn and her man are completely up front about it. they know who they are, and honestly join in all the festivities and fetishism on the level.

do you see yourself as very different to the other cders in your group? does your wife?

see, this where it goes off at a tangent again.

if dh suddenly announced he wanted to wear a skirt, i would be kinda surprised. (we do cross dress for those murder mystery dinner parties, as an aside - we started doing it when i vastly pregnant with dd1, two weeks before her due date. i was fecking pissed off that yet again i was expected to don strumpet garb as a default position. so i told him he was going to be the strumpet, and i was going to be the pilot. i painted on a moustache and he threw a total tantrum, but what can you do with a monstrously pregnant wife, so he did as he was told and wore a huge blonde wig and a skirt. so it's now tradition and he's got over himself.)

i'd be faintly interested why. he hasn't shown the slightest interest in twenty years. if he'd been dressing on the sly, i'd see it as dishonest and have a problem. that said, he doesn't really grasp the whole equality thing as a concept. he lives it, to the extend that he cooks way more than i do, cleans, and was left with the kids when i went to wrok many many times. but i don't think he cares too much about fighting for the right of men to wear what has been traditionally considered women's clothing. doesn't stop me fancying eddie izzard, and wouldn't have stopped me fancying dh if he'd been a cd when we met, but it's not part of who he is. so it would mean i would have to re-evaluate that.

no idea how i would react, tbh. it isn't something that i can ever envisage happening.

re the kids. tbh it would be more about how i felt.

i mentioned upthread about my friend whose stepdad is now called susan. after twenty years. i guess they did it to protect the kids whilst they were at school. i don't think the kids found it any easier to deal with at twenty.

you just aren't challenging anything though. which is way different from your opening post claims.

and why we're all so disappointed.

don't start out all 'i wear a frock, what ya gonna do about it?' and then end up squeeing 'well, acksherly i just wear frock in secret with my drag friends'.

i can understand your decision re your kids. and i loathe the potential for violence around this stuff.

doesn't stop me feeling like you're a sell out though. not trying to destroy gendered behaviour AT ALL.

anyways, gotta take the kids out for ice cream, they're angsty.

have a quiet night.

If my hypothetical dh enjoyed wearing skirts as opposed to trying to be one, or more colloquially, a piece of one, I'd like to think that I'd back him.

In fact, I can see me in a Saville Row tailors helping him to choose suiting that will lend itself to skirt and pair of trousers rather than the traditional 2 pairs of strides that traditionally accompanies every bespoke hand tailored jacket because the arse wears out before the jacket gives up the ghost

The remainder of your disaster scenarios may be writ large in your imagination but I doubt that it would form part of my reality.

That said, no responsible parent would knowingly compromise the welfare and wellbeing of their dc and if you have reason to believe that your personal and private preference place your dc at unacceptable risk, the choice is yours.

Give up indulging your preference until such time as your dc won't be harmed by it or continue to indulge in what you may perceive to be secrecy but which, in fact, may be common knowledge.

That doesn't seem much of a sacrifice to me but, of course, you are suffering from a compulsion, a habit, that maybe as hard to give up as smoking the natural flower of the earth that is tobacco which is only availabe in its adulterated with the chemicals state that maximises profits for vast conglomerates.

how many fucking times do i have to say, i have done plenty of dressing in public without make up etc, if that isn't challenging i don't know what is.

i'm just not gouing to do it now because of the potential damage it could do to the kids..............theres no way to guage what the damage could be , but its not worth the risk.

in future i will again and will have no compunctions about being honest with the dds , but not til they're older. thats our considered decision

i've done my teeth and am otf to bed

good night izzy and mad

Do you realise that what you posted at 03.27 is what we should be addressing?

Namely, the prejudice that comes from ignorance fear of the unknown.

It's a great shame that it's taken so very long to get to this point but I thank you for your honesty and, hopefully, later today we can put our minds to giving consideration to the issues and the fears that underpin transvestism for so many men.

FWIW, I feel heartened that unicorn and chloe found each other and are able to provide the safety and security that each of them craved, and I hope they'll continue to give each other the joy that comes from being accepted and appreciated and adored warts and all by a beloved oh.

I know. Kids make you afraid. But it's dishonest.

I don't think creeping out and doing it on the sly is the answer.

So, what was this thread for, really? Just a rant about society? And you expected us all to nod and agree? Or we're you after a bun fight?

Why Mn?

Nice post, izzy.

I'm still baffled about why here, in relationships, asking for women to contribute, as if the issue was with female intolerance, and not the fear of masculine violence.

I wish everyone struggling with gender issues peace and strength. And their families health and safety.

This would have been a very different thread with that post at the beginning. I still don't like the rules. But I understand completely why you feel the need to play by them.

'Night, kid, and I wish you sweet dreams in the arms of Morpheus.

Also a teetering on the brink of an almost unforgivably belated goodnight to Lurking - just to confirm, honey, you are aware that my number in the queue is 146 which guarantees delivery of Eddie up down my chimney on Dec 25?

And if he ain't sitting in my stockings at the bottom of my bed when I wake up on Christmas Day I shall scweam and scweam until I'm thwick in AF's handbag

A fond adieu to you too, mad. It's been a pleasure that I look forward to repeating in the very near future Enjoy the ice cream - and please save me a scoop of Macadamia nut, Vermont maple syrup, or Double expresso depending on which continent you are on

Maple syrup.

Incidentally, on the Eddie front (and I am proper rofling that you worked out how many sleeps until Christmas at approximately the same time that my kids were debating the existence of Santa Claus in the back of the car, on the 1st of freaking August) I didn't even register he was a cross dresser for about two years. Didn't even occur to me. I thought he was well ballsy and was a big fan after his insistence on doing his full on stand up routine in French. Was vair impressed by his general air of ruggedness and ability to accept his French wasn't perfect, but goddammit he was going to put himself through it. And get some applause. The fact that he was wearing make up and the odd item of women's apparel didn't even register. I remember later on someone making a point about him cross dressing, and having to look it up.

I'm not the most observant of folk where apparel is concerned.

But I'll pop back and check the Fred on Christmas morning to see if his your package arrived safely.

There's something self-contained chunky and compact about Mr Izzard. He reminds me of my favourite handbag. I want to put a handle on his back and sling him over my shoulder

I feel as if it any encounter I have with him will be on the lines of irresistable force meets immovable object - and I live in hope know that we'll both feel the earth move see stars

Of course it's going to happen. I cosmically ordered him along with several other goodies before this thread came into being and I see this post as being evidence that he'll be mine appear on his due date.

Gosh, better reign it in now otherwise I'll be thanking the kid for postihg

Apropos your mention of swishy skirts, mad, it occurs to me that enormous crinolines are tres useful for mothers of multitudes to hide their fecundity from unsuspecting would-be suitors - stick the dc underneath the hoops where they can be wiping snotty nose on multitudes of petticoats while the putative dfs of their future half-sibling are interviewed for suitability - o dear, nearly strayed into territory crudite there.

So you're under the flag of the maple leaf? Which province? Maybe I can give you a wave from the borderline later this month...

Ok, so now some of the actual issues are being talked about.

I have been with a cd or person as I prefer to call him who regularly just walked about in his ordinary life, wearing whatever he felt like wearing and was not bullied or abused in the small town where I get picked on for cowboy boots. He just wears the clothes he feels like, he has never worn a bra, he has never been beaten up. Unfortunately he managed to get some woman up the duff and felt he had to marry here and she beats him refuses to allow him to do "it" anymore "in case he gets beaten up". So it didn't happen for all the 10 years he previously was doing it, he became the Eddie Izard of our small town but when he married her he would suddenly get beaten up? The only thing I think is stupider than people who hide themselves to conform is people who hide others to conform...

Now the crux of this for me, the irritation I've had all along at this thread is the setting of yourself up as the great defender of individuality and equality, coming here to educate the intolerant (in a safe way) but who is apparently actually only restrained by. Yourself.

HOW you choose to restrain yourself reinforces and promotes intolerance and prejudice against cd, it reinforces and promotes sexist attitudes but you come here to educate us?!

I honestly do not give a fig if you want to live your life in that way, any of the choices, any of the keeping it from your kids, any of it. I. Just. Don't. Care. What I care about is that you think you can come here all superior with puffed up feathers to educate us about tolerance... It is an insult to cd and to women and to MN, the things you have said.

It is the equivalent of saying I'm mixed race and I've seen some racism on this forum so I'm coming here to educate you, society is mainly white so I married a white woman to fit in, I only do it so I don't get bashed up and I pass for being white. It is crap how society is like that and I am fighting to change it.

Fucking insulting isn't it? So, if that's how you live your life (with all your paranoia about being beaten up that means you have to wear a bra) please don't get the idea that the act of merely wearing a skirt means you have authority to lecture anybody on tolerance.

That really is all I've been bothered about.

I mean FFS people thatcher wore a skirt

And I've already said. If DH "came out" about wanting to wear a skirt I would be nonchalant...

I would not feel the need to run screeching "think of the children" and covering their eyes (we have more children than I have hands anyway).

In terms of my relationship I wouldn't even care that he had "kept it a secret" because we are both private people and like it that way and I think I wouldn't see it as my business until he felt like sharing it tbh.

I am not basing this on lack of experience.