womens attitudes to crossdressing

[calikid]

hi everyone,

i write this as a response to the numerous comments on a variety of posts regarding reaction to any stories where crossdressing is a subject. Firstly i'd like to make it clear that i am male and as such appreciate i may be laying myself bare to the onslaught of comment that is likely to come my way. although male i love to wear "womens clothes". What I would like to know is simply why shouldn't I. can anyone give me one valid reason why I shouldn't? because I have never been able to think of one.
I am happily married with two dds and a beautiful wife , all of whom i love very much. My wife knows all about my dressing and has been with me to a couple of tv gatherings. i told her not long after we got together and she was totally fine with it, we have been married now for 8 yrs. we do not let the children know as they are still quite young.
In all other respects I am very much one of the lads......I like football and beer (but then so do many women!), i work in construction, I teach martial arts, I help with housework , I don't mind ironing(coz i can do it while watching tv!)
I take a size 10 and look pretty good in a skirt and heels, but then so does my wife, its just she can do it whenever she pleases and good for her. its just the injustice and ignorance of society that infuriates me.
I'm curious to know how the rest of women feel about the issue

Off i will standup and rise in arms with you to validate your sence of humour....... But only on the internet!

Oh god, I didn't get that far.

Likeatonne, your lunchtime posts are abso-freaking-lutely hilarious. You win the humour prize. For deffo.

Women like embroidery more than men. adult women are better readers and communicators because they biologically have to look after babies.

'what they'd be more comfortable with naturally' bwaaaaaah ha ha ha ha ha!

Likea, doubtless you ebf'd and all, and are clinging to that as a biological fact of the necessity of you staying in the home and your partner wage earning and serving it up as an excuse for him to not to do his share of the parenting, but do you honestly, really, genuinely believe all that horse? Is there not a faint glimmer of understanding that how you choose to parent, and who you choose to parent (in both senses - offspring and adult) might just have a teensy ickle impact on how the adult turns out? I mean, I know you do - but you are choosing to perpetrate gendered traits (as in, traits which have been assigned a gendered nature, that are not innate) by the choices you make. you (and the rest of society) are perpetrating what the op is (allegedly) arguing against!

Bwah ha ha ha ha!

If we all parented, and all worked (or not) in equal measure, it wouldn't eradicate the penis. Honest. It would just mean we'd lose the crap about 'women are more nurturing' and 'men can't wear skirts'.

I like the way you think you're all pro gender equality though. delusional

madwoman - this is not my views, the brain wiring is subject of scientific research - no it's not about the needs of a MAN (aren't you slow?) but the needs of a BABY who needs their mother when they are born as primary carer, a man can't breastfeed - where there is a CHOICE iin that, and most babies want their mum above the father to feel content - it's also a FACT (nothing bloody new) that women aer fragile after birth and needd looking after before they can back to work (especially if they CHOOSE to breastfeed whiich hardly goes with work chices). Most women on same MN say they dON@T WANT to go straight to work because of the string emotional desire to be with he baby, it's not what I made up - it's how nature intended it for hte benefit of a newborn. Your post is rude and stupid. I never said men and women are not equal in every aspect, but pointed out the mothering aspect as one oif the major differences there aer also minor - like body streength, or are you going to laugh your head off also at Olypmic committee for not mixing men and women in competitions? women have a right to run as fast or lift as heaby weights - but they bloody can't. Why don't you go with these ridiculous arguments and prove to then they are wrong and sexist? All I said is that there are differences but overall men and womemn aer equal and compliment each other, we aer products of nature AND society, so go and argue with both (youmay have better progress with society haha).

Lurking this os not Offred's thread, she is not some figurehead on here but behaves lkike one. You say I misread her posts - and so did OP? we really do not ead similar lives or have similar personalities with OP but we understand each other's posts yet Offred seems to misunderstand ours - who says that she is right? you do? but OP and I, and say unicorn say Not. Why don't we agree to disagree?

Lurking I understand what sexism and say, racism is - it's stating/thinking that one gender is superior/more valuable/ should be in charge to compare with the other. Sexisn is NOT stating the biological/psychological diffrences. Same as racism is not stating that some men are black and some white fgs. OP never said in his posts that men aer superior, therefore Off gong on about his posts being sexist (or mine) do not make sense, she is nitpicking on every word to do with simple description of attributes (and some others too). This is not what Op started the thread for - if you want a fight on subject of sexism/feminism WHATEVER you understand by that why not start the whole topic or even a club with Offred and praise each other, you aer missing the point of this thread completely, OP's opinion, not just mine.

Because agreeing to disagree kinda sounds like 'shut up and go away,' which doesn't really work on a debate thread on the internet? isn't the point of a debate to...Debate?

Thing is, thread is pretty much pointless. Nothing to debate about...At least not what the OP WANTED us to debate about. Virtually everyone had a nonchalant attitude towards CDing, some of us didn't feel comfortable with some of the OP's comments. Since there was actually nothing to debate about since no one opposed CDing, naturally the conversation went in another direction.

Even f this thread were full of people opposing CDing, I still would have pulled OP and others up on the sexism. It was so blatant I was cringing.

Mothering. Not parenting.

Other than the production of milk, the rest of it is social engineering. Someone with a penis is equally capable of changing nappies and nurturing. Are you one of the posters who are driven into an absolute quandary by a male carer in a nursery?

I feel very sorry that you have been so completely suckered into believing that drivel. And how unfortunate that you infantilism the male so much and refute he is capable of care and nurture.

You want to discuss sport? Really? It couldn't possibly be that sport for girls is conditioned out of society well before the teen years, could it? Thus neatly removing the possibility of excellence? I've trained with blokes. Most of them were majorly pissed that I didn't behave appropriately and sit down for a little rest when the going got tough. And I've been accused of cheating. It took a long time for the 'cheat cheat' bleating to start when a woman had the temerity to swim faster than a man, didn't it? Ach.

Brain plasticity is a fantastic thing. It allows regeneration and learning of new skills, especially useful in cases of brain hypoxia etc etc. I'm still frankly amazed that so many people are suckered by pseudoscience about brains.

Men have a penis. Women have a vagina. Women have breasts that can make milk. Both are capable of nurture, care, communication, and emotional bonding with infants. Society has told us that it's a woman's job. For the first wee while it's convenient, what with being the source of food and all, but it really isn't biologically determined past the milk bit. And we have fridges and everything now. Clinging to gendered roles is what keeps the op in trousers.

Who are you to prevent men taking part in this amazing bonding ritual with their children? As far as I know, there aren't many sabre toothed tigers waiting to make off with my bairn these days. I feel quite comfortable leaving a man in charge of the household whilst I fuck off to build stuff. Or do my nails. Whichever particular stereotype you would like me to conform to, as a result of my chromosomes, this time?

Offred, you asked where OP said it, a few pages back yesterday, referring to his original post:
'it wouldn't have occurred to me that it would have been dissected and thrown back at me. but all i was doing was giving a setting so you could put a bit of background to my situation, not attempting to promote any division of our respective roles as the stereotype'.

I'm not missing the point of the thread.

The point of the thread was: What are the rest of womens opinions on CDing. That was addressed over the first few hundred posts.

It's actually you who is missing the point. Sexism just isn't as simple as 'I think men are superior.' I don't think from what I've seen OP or others think that. It's the sexist ideals being portrayed that have made some of us uncomfortable.

Seriously? A club where we praise each other? Don't be so childish, and honestly who are YOU to decide what people are and aren't allowed to say on the internet ad where and with whom? I'll post as much as I like about what feel is relevant, just like you are doing.

madwoman - stop being so bloody rude, I didn't make personal remarks to you like 'she never heard of nurture/nature debate' - at least not until you started being rude and agressive to me, of course I have, where do you think I get the facts about scientific research on the subject?? I know about environnment factors from same sources, they take similar environment for comparison OBVIOUSLY in these studies, i.e, all being equal socially, as to knowing the 'why's' Offred it's not relevant to this argument as the 'why's' are not known yet, and who can speculate, I operate with what is known and what makes sense with the differences in physiology, babies' needs etc.

And am lolling at your insistence that some women want to spend time with their babies, and not to go back to work. No shit, Sherlock. It is YOU that is preventing men from this very same base parenting desire, not me. And it is society that has manufactured this - Mothering is a bloody good money spinner.

Maybe you'd like to check out MIRCI? I find research into mothering around the globe fascinating. Some of their conferences are great.

Nurturing children is an amazing responsibility. It isn't a solely female enterprise though. I'd love the op to come back and wrestle with your logic. He won't know where to put himself. Keen to appear all man, and noughties father, but forced to come up with some sort of halfway house about his wife being much better at it than he is. The sort of pathetic excuse used by Neanderthals and dh's of mners that post 'argh. He's gone out with his mates and left me alone for the fifteenth night in a row, Aibu?' and are left competing for yummiest on ff/ bf threads, and Annabel Karmel one- upmanship.

I don't care if a man or woman has primary responsibility in raising kids. But loons who claim it's a woman's job get right on my amply milked bosoms.

Go on then, nature/ nurture. Explain why people treat babies differently according to gender. And what impact this has on their development. Not that women have breasts, cos, Eric, I'm aware of that.

Peer reviewed research that details why parents (and indeed wider society) treats girl babies differently from boy babies, from day one of life. And how this impacts their development. Off you pop.

Lol at eric. No fecking idea who eric is. But I like him.

OP started the thread and he doesn't think I'm missing the point of what he is saying - he said that I got the picture, and that offred and some others are 'missing the point'. It's not my thread not it is yours, so if you think I'm missing the point is neither here not there - my opinion is that you and Offred are in the wrong, and as we don't understand each other, what is the point of this?? obv reached a limbo. Op has a right to decide whether his questions were answered etc.

'what is known'

yes Lurking you have the right, but each thread is started by an OP and you have to respect swhat they want to get out of it - in your oewn thread you can start all you like, but if OP thinks you misunderstand, tries to explain, you still misunderstand surely there is no point banging your head against the wall - andas to the club I don't enjoy being ganged upon as you Offred and madwoman are doing today (and madwoman is unbelievable nasty andrude in her manner), you would enjoy all this more in your clukb but do you think it's not extrenely upsetting to OP, which he already hinted at yesterday? He's got an onmslaught, and so did I - for bloody what? stating the facts? I don't see how he promotes sexist ideals, he didn't.

and your or any one poster's opinion is not valid more than mine or others, that's why i suggested to agree to disagree.

The only question he asked was, do you have a problem with cd? And we all said no. A few of you jumped right in there and attempted to pally up with shared history, which was all a bit irrelevant, because no one had any problem with cd at all. But the sub text was all a bit 'but men and women are different' and then a load of old twaddle about science, and gender difference.

Which is where we differ. Some people on the thread see an innate difference based around sex to do with behavioral traits. And some people see physical difference 'Ooo, look, he's got a willy' but think that gender is socially constructed, and that folk who don't understand that need educating.

Which in turn, is kind of odd. Because in my head, the cd-er should be able to agree that gender is a social construct. (and the cd -aficionados who pop off to sparkle and whatnot). But weirdly, I find myself in a parallel universe, where gender and behavior traits are apparently scientifically sexed.

Funny old world.

Go read up on gender, instead of those wince making pink brain blue brain pseudoscientific make a quick buck texts, eh?

< Pops into thread. Looks around for OP. Scratches head in puzzlement. Leaves quietly >

Unbelievably nasty and rude? Whatever.

I prefer 'trying to inform in a realistic and necessarily blunt manner, as the poster is talking shite', but you can call it whatever you like.

Gender is a social construct. But yes, men still have a penis. And they can wear skirts if they want. And raise babies.

Frankly, I don't understand what you're so upset about. You were arguing that nurture makes no difference to behavior, it is to do with sex. But your actual evidence for that pointed to societal difference, (well, and tits) so I was suggesting there might be an anomaly in your thinking. However much hot air you want to blow about being all right on and in favour of cd.

madwoman - og thank God it's not just me now , it's SOCIETY! isn't that what I'm banging on about - that the society is still sexist so attacking OP or me for uttering one shread of a cliche or a few, is irrattional and it's a misplaced aggression! WE LIVE in this society and the whole thread takes thos into account, even if we don't like it, but OP is hardly promoting sexism to compare even with the average person! You state that men are capabe equally of nurturing a small baby - how? baby watn milk friom those breasts, so yo uthink it makes any sense to feed baby and pass it on to the father at once even thougfh baby feels COMFORTABLE sllepping by the breasts? for what? to prove some principle? also there is no proof that girlls could outrun the men in sports, that what yo uthink may happen but NO proof, women need hel of a lt more steroids to develop muscle fast - it's harmful - WHY would they want to, eh? I said throughout that we aer talking about majority, there are exceprtons, and if you outplayed the boys in sports, you aer one of them - interview women out of interest and ask whether they can/want to/ think it's interesting to outdo boys in sports. It was illuastrated also by the fact that some couples are not educated by society (they live in a remore forest with no tv for example) but when a baby is born it naturally wants theor mother first, same as you did as a baby, not the father (in presence of both) - nature is very sensible and economical and if it gave women the hormones to bond with babies in pregnancy and through bf ten it makes sense that the baby prefers the mother and is read metter by her.

just to clarify I don't think he promotes any sexism, but if you want to go on by his use of cliches then he is promoting it a whole lot less than the average person because he is not conventional and isn't HAPPY with the norms of dressing that's gendered.

Upsetting?

Not my intent to upset the op, and I sincerely apologize if he's upset. Not sure why he would be upset though - none of us care whether he wears a skirt or not, which is what he was concerned about.

If he's upset because some of his comments suggested that he has an underlying issue to do with gender difference, and that we were interested in getting him to examine his own potential beliefs to do with sex difference, suggesting possible sub-consciousness sexism despite his desire for gender equality, then frankly I think it will do him the world of good. So I don't, in hindsight, think I'll apologies for that.

Afaik there is no law on Mn that you can't ask uncomfortable questions of the op? Personal attacks, yada yada. But asking him to examine his own apparently unintentional sexist attitudes to women and friday night revellers? Par for the course I'd say. If you can't take debate, should've posted on net mums. They have moderators and everything to save you from getting honest responses.

I think you are talking shite, but much more agressively than I do. Shite mainly because you think THEORY and PRINCIPLES can cleanly work in practice and people would willingly do what they should do by this principle (no differences one) given a chance. NO actually you completely discounted what real people WANT to do or find comfortable, and for that to change it takes centuries. Completely irrelevant to where we aer at in real world now, and even for hte future there is no guarantee that no-gender-divide would ever work - a person cannot be spo arrogant as to think they are wiser/more capable than nature, the issue is far more complex than it theoretically appears.

Plenty of men do raise babies though. Women die or suffer illness or injury during childbirth and the father takes over. My friend gave birth with a broken back and had to stay in hospital when baby went home with dad. The whole family have bonded well. Just saying.

My own dh did at least 50% of childcare. My dcs would take both bottle and breast so were happy with either of us. Lots of people co-parent really well, some dads stay at home with newborns whilst women go back to work.

Baby doesn't want mother, baby wants to be fed, be warm, clean and loved and really won't mind who provides that for them.