Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

womens attitudes to crossdressing

881 replies

calikid · 29/07/2012 01:16

hi everyone,

i write this as a response to the numerous comments on a variety of posts regarding reaction to any stories where crossdressing is a subject. Firstly i'd like to make it clear that i am male and as such appreciate i may be laying myself bare to the onslaught of comment that is likely to come my way. although male i love to wear "womens clothes". What I would like to know is simply why shouldn't I. can anyone give me one valid reason why I shouldn't? because I have never been able to think of one.
I am happily married with two dds and a beautiful wife , all of whom i love very much. My wife knows all about my dressing and has been with me to a couple of tv gatherings. i told her not long after we got together and she was totally fine with it, we have been married now for 8 yrs. we do not let the children know as they are still quite young.
In all other respects I am very much one of the lads......I like football and beer (but then so do many women!), i work in construction, I teach martial arts, I help with housework , I don't mind ironing(coz i can do it while watching tv!)
I take a size 10 and look pretty good in a skirt and heels, but then so does my wife, its just she can do it whenever she pleases and good for her. its just the injustice and ignorance of society that infuriates me.
I'm curious to know how the rest of women feel about the issue

OP posts:
LurkingAndLearningLovesCats · 01/08/2012 14:19

Your posts make very little sense to me like. Confused You are saying Offred said things she never said. You're accusing her of misreading your posts when you are wither misreading hers or just making stuff up.

I don't think you understand what sexism is. Unfortunate, since some of your posts are quite sexist.

Helltotheno · 01/08/2012 14:24

Surely this isn't still going on? Out of all proportion to how interesting the subject matter is imho.

Anyway hey ho, there's an Olympics to be watched...

Offred · 01/08/2012 14:24

The post at 13.03 where you said the op commented dissecting every word of a post I made...

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats · 01/08/2012 14:25

Subject matter is very interesting, would be great if the OP actually discussed it.

Offred · 01/08/2012 14:32

I am aware that there are noticeable gender differences in ability to do different things like spatial relations and reading emotions. That isnt what I am contesting what I am contesting is that it isn't a good example for you to use to support your argument since they can only say that is what they have found not why it is what they have found. It is not accepted as evidence necessarily of a biological or innate gender difference given the other things that are known about the functioning of the brain and it's development i.e. that environmental factors influence the development of the brain.

madwomanintheattic · 01/08/2012 17:23

I don't think likea has ever heard of the nature/ nurture debate, off.

Ergo, it's almost pointless. She genuinely believes men and woman have innate social differences due to genetics, not upbringing. There are as many studies that show parents (and indeed wider society) treat babies sooooooo differently according to their gender, that all of those ridiculous social conditioning differences she's leaning on her for argument are easily explained.

I have no time for such pink brain blue brain aficionados, tbh. And to start on 'innate' (bollocks) differences, on a thread purporting to be about gender neutrality in clothing, is frankly hilarious.

Sexuality is an entirely different kettle of fish, and not particularly relevant, tbh. Unless the desire to wear a frock is less to do with equality of access to garb, and more to do with getting off on transgression. I still don't particularly care what the op wears, but only he knows (or he might not, tbh, some things are completely subconscious and the mind makes up a pretty dran good cover story) whether he wants the freedom to wear a skirt because it's only an item of clothing and shouldn't be gendered, or whether he wears it for other reasons.

The bra question is an excellent one though. I can see that there is more tolerance for MTFs in society than ordinary joes who want to wear a skirt instead of trews to pick up the paper from newsagent, so stuffing a bra and putting on a flippy wig might allow you to pass in that respect, and afford you a degree of social acceptability that a man would otherwise not have. But to put on a bra and stuff it in the privacy of your own home is a different kettle of fish. After all, his wife is fine with whatever he wants to wear, and he's 100% red blooded male, with no intent to transition, so breasts are something of an irrelevance if he just wants to wear a skirt for practical reasons of coolness and swishiness about the frame.

Cd is generally less acceptable than trans, I suppose. I imagine it's all about policing the gender boundary. MTFs have already placed themselves outside of it (and have a degree of legal if not physical protection), whereas cd is possibly a little too close to the bone? I'd say it was masculinity that would have a bigger problem with cd tbh, so still not sure why the op decided to bring his education to MN, and not to construction.com. I assume a degree of fear about the the outcome if he took his particular brand of education to a hotbed of masculinity and asked them why they didn't want to wear a frock? Mn an easier target?

You've got to start somewhere I suppose.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats · 01/08/2012 17:27

Of course it's a nature/nurture debate madwoman.

DB was born in a top hat and monocle and I was born in a pink tutu.

CLOTHES MEAN EVERYTHING TO MY IDENTITY!!! dramatic eye twitch

TheDoctrineOfEnnis · 01/08/2012 17:31

Lurking, are you Lord Peter Wimsey's sister?!?

GoldenFucker · 01/08/2012 17:38
Grin
Fairenuff · 01/08/2012 17:42

And, I know I shouldn't bring this up, I really shouldn't, but likeatonne women are vastly under-represented in the construction industry and not just through choice. It's your type of regurgitation of myths that most women would prefer housework to construction work, that makes it very difficult for some women to break into careers of their choice.

A friend of mine with a good engineering degree landed a fantastic job . . . eventually. Even then, they had to get her a portaloo because there were no facilities for females. It is happening, there is progress but is so slow when you are still going against the tide it's made that much harder.

You have already said that some of things you believe might be a little bit sexist and that the OP might be 10% sexist, so why don't you just admit it. The more you try to defend your point, the bigger hole you are digging yourself. You can't defend sexism, but you can admit it. You are entitled to your opinion even if the majority don't agree with you.

And OP, you have said that you regret not taking more care over the wording of your opening post. But you shouldn't have to take care, if you want to come across as a person that believes, honestly, truly believes in equality, then these little phrases would not accidently slip into your vocabulary in the first place. It should not take effort and careful scrutiny of every word, it should be natural. So why don't you also admit that, yes, you do see gender roles.

Then we can hopefully leave this whole sexism debate aside and talk about the original discussion. Unless it throws up more inconsistences . . .

madwomanintheattic · 01/08/2012 17:46

I'm not sure likea would agree... She would say you both popped out nekkid, and your chromosomes immediately sent you shopping, presumably whilst you grabbed a soft toy to nurture, and your bro headed for the blue aisle to get something he could bang. (pun intended). Although where one would buy a top hat and monocle in this day and age is anyone's guess. Saville row? A pink tutu should be easier. I'm guessing a large proportion of the op's Friday's night folk have picked one up in Claire's.

I freaking hate it when folk trot out the 'men and women are different innit' line, but haven't thought about why. Just swallowed the ' brain wiring' thing, rather than actually contemplated how behaviors are taught by gender, thus potentially 'wiring' the brain. Brain development takes freaking years. Lots of time to hardwire in 'difference' if that is your wont. And it seems to be for a large swathe of folk. I have no clue why it's come up in a 'why can't a bloke wear a skirt' debate though. Counter productive at best.

madwomanintheattic · 01/08/2012 17:49

ah, some ideas here!
Grin

madwomanintheattic · 01/08/2012 17:51

And by Christ, do I loathe housework.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats · 01/08/2012 18:16

Sorry, I used top hat and monocle because my brother is a politician and just so....Well he has very good posture? Grin

Love the link!!!

FYI I do construction on a small scale, I build my own rabbit banks. :)

With all this talk of portaloos, construction, gender roles mixed with my insomnia, I feel like watching North Country again!

Offred · 01/08/2012 18:27

Grin madwoman...

It came up because the op/likeatonne didn't seem to be able to separate gender stereotyping from cd and couldn't understand how bringing them together promoted an inaccurate and, I felt, rather insulting view of cd.

There were other points such as the hostility against MN and the keeping it secret in his village/from his children which didn't fit with the stated aims of discussion initiated by a champion of equality. I thought it might be self validation that was being sought, still think it a bit but also think there is no evidence of hostility to justify the manner of the posts or the hiding of his cd that I can see. Not that he should be visible, just he can't criticise MN or society for constraining him when the constraining appears to be coming predominantly from him.

The sexism part is just the part that got picked up out of the points we raised, probably because of the later stated aims of coming here with the intention of educating MN and of him/likeatonne feeling he is like some kind of gender equality role model because he is a cd.

Offred · 01/08/2012 18:30

Lurking I don't think your brother would have gone to the shops to pick out his own top hat and monocle?! Surely you would have done that for him, people with penises, as we are all aware are deficient in the shopping gene, those with vaginas however are a different story, their dainty fingers are perfectly evolved for pinching their supervising male's cash card out of his carefully guarded wallet... Grin

Offred · 01/08/2012 18:31

Sorry, I'm meant to be humourless aren't I? Grin

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats · 01/08/2012 18:40

Actually Offred Dons appropriate sister-of-politician clothing

SIL spends her days sweeping in her hoop skirts and shining his 100% leather Italian loafers sadly he actually owns these She often visits me for lessons in etiquette. I brought shame to our family last week, at a dinner party I used the wrong fork for the caviar! My hands alas, are not delicate enough. :(

SIL is totally NOT a tattoo artist with dyed red hair and a penchant for tattooing naked women holding snakes on biker's ass'

madwomanintheattic · 01/08/2012 19:10

I absolutely agree, off. It just seemed like a barking argument for supposed pro-cd (as opposed to 'don't give a toss what you wear') posters to be taking up.

I am faintly reminded of Dafydd Thomas, and that sketch where loads of other like minded folk show up, to Daffyd's absolute apoplexy. Sometimes folk have a lot invested in being other. Even if they are only trying it out small scale on a forum, not heading out with all the other sparkle aficionados (which incidentally is rather more a trans event, rather than cd - which wasn't supposed to be what was being discussed). I note that no one has mentioned the rubber ball yet. Grin

It's interesting. The op apparently is quite happy as a hetero male with a wife and family, and just wants clothes to be gender-free. I'm all for that. Some of his posts do suggest he's rather kidding himself though. Grin methinks someone is protesting too much.

That said, I don't particularly care if (i'll use percentages, y'know, apparently that's the done thing when you are trying to piece it all out) if there is, oooo, 20% of him that idenitifies as a woman. Or 100%. All of that just reinforces the 'gender difference' scenario, which I don't buy into. I have an MTF friend who gave up motor bike racing when she was doing her RLE, which drove me crazy. And kept asking me about nail varnish. Op, wear nail varnish if you want, and race bikes. And feel free to use whatever terminology you like to describe yourself. Cd is fine if you are happy with that. Your posts don't strike me as being written by someone who identifies as 100% all man though

And you other posters who are hanging around on the fringes of the scene - the op is just a cd. No need to get all evangelical about it. It's a hobby. Try looking at it like the op desperately wants to, as nothing more than a gender free statement. Once he convinces himself it's nothing more than that, anyway.

Anyone struggling will know they can contact the Beaumont society. Might be worth the op passing on the details to his wife so that they can make a decision about what to tell the kids when they get older.

Offred · 01/08/2012 19:41

Ah yes, ok see where you were coming from now madwoman...

That'd be my humourlessness again... Dammit...

I've probably managed less 1% of my posts on this thread with humour, that is exactly the same as actually having only 1% of a sense of humour...

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats · 01/08/2012 19:48

Offred, humour is subjective so perhaps you should divide that 1% by certain posters those who don't enjoy your sense of humour? Wink

Who knew morals, values, ethics and personality traits came in maths form? As if life isn't confusing enough! Grin

Offred · 01/08/2012 19:58

Maybe I just need to stop looking to MN to validate that sense of humour... Grin

anairofhopeFORGOLD · 01/08/2012 20:04

Well im fucked im crap at maths lol

madwomanintheattic · 01/08/2012 20:07

I'm so totally a qual girl. Quant makes me want to jump off the nearest bridge.

I'm faintly bizarred out at the prospect of calculating ones sexuality in so precise a manner. (womanner)?

I mean, do you count up all the people you've done, segregate them by sex, then apply percentages? Calculate all the folk you'd like to do, all things being, erm, equal? Or is it all a mind game about how right on you want to sound at any given time? With added proviso that you have to adjust for social acceptability in any given context? (so, dang, I'm gonna bump that score for the turning tavern Wink. I must go back and read that post about clothing and sexism and sexual attraction and not being able to identify as hetero if everyone wore the same again. To see if it makes any more sense the second time around. I'm suspecting I may have dreamed it.

I can't really afford to be sceptical about such matters. I got practically evicted from the fem board for identifying as a human being, rather than as a woman, primarily. So I'd find it massively hard to work out how much I identified as woman in percentage terms. The op is absolutely certain he's a man. The fact he is so certain must mean society he sets a lot of store by it. Which makes me a leeeeeeeeetle bit uneasy.

Looking forward to him getting home from the 'building site' and answering the bra question, though...

I am mostly 100% not funny. Although I laugh at my own jokes, which I suspect throws the laws of percentages into total disarray, and creates new rules about negative percentages. Oops, there I go again. Grin still, it keeps me happy...

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats · 01/08/2012 20:09

Offred, I am the messed up sister of a politician, and I think you're spunky and hilarious.

Surely I'm a good judge of wit? Wink plus no one's opinion matters but my own, duh! Grin