Crazy Makers

[garlicbutter]

I have been 'triggered' into a right old state by a controversial thread in Mental Health. I am not attempting to 'diagnose' what's up with the OP, she's in a serious pickle.

Her thread's triggering factor for me is its theme of other people forcing their opinions - she's mentally unsound - onto a person who believes she is sane. It's taken me a while to figure out why it got to me. The answer is Complex PTSD, which I have although it's not a recognised diagnostic term. (I have "generalised anxiety disorder, which patient relates to her earlier diagnosed PTSD".)

This is too long for an OP. Finishing in next post.

Thank you so much, green and restart! I must admit I've backed away from it today, despite my resolve. I'm not putting it out of sight, though, not this time. Piecing it all together, bit by bit ... It's one thing to know with your head and another to "know" with your soul, isn't it? [sigh] I'm getting there

For all the articles and diagnostics I've read on why some people are more susceptible to PTSD than others, I've only seen bloggers making a direct connection between childhood abuse and depth of trauma. I might have been reading the wrong things. Or it might be because PTSD is only formally diagnosed in relation to a single event (or series of events) that would traumatise most people. CPTSD is more about a sort of all-encompassing, lifetime Stockholm syndrome and the inner conflict that sets up, isn't it? Abusive conditioning versus inner wisdom / 'little professor' / wonderchild. Then a really competent crazy-maker can work that conflict to destabilise you. Hmm.

Achillea, I'm sorry to say "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" is still widely-traded advice. It's ridiculous, it means getting your woman by fucking with her head! Gah!

Your posts are starting to make me think more about ensuring girls are educated properly to recognise this kind of manipulation at an early stage. It is interesting how girls are so vulnerable to this abuse despite being the more 'socially wired' gender. We go through school dealing with lots of complex social challenges in the playground, the bullies, the pecking order etc while the boys are still charging around playing football and picking their noses. We learn how to stand up for ourselves against other girls but never learn how to stand up to abusive men. We don't even recognise one when we see one, we get infatuated and melt into their strong arms with our little hearts pounding.

The difficulty is in spotting an abusive man, achillea :( It seems to me you need a lot of experience, especially in the early stages. Because they seem to all intents and purposes to be a dream come true. Charming, nice, solicitous, 'so in love', exciting to be around, with only crazy exes to worry about ....because you, the latest victim, are so different and special and unlike anyone he's ever met. And he's so keen to commit, too!

Am feeling way off tonight because a relation I care about is, I have a sickening feeling, walking straight into a relationship just like this. She's found someone much older, with exes, and all the trimmings. I know they play a long game. Feel sick at the thought of watching the train crash slowly.

Her mother thinks he's wonderful, but there's so much there that makes me instinctively recoil.

While I haven't had the awful experiences other posters have had, I have my own issues. This is making me feel powerless and upset.

Garlic re your 23 July post...I don't think any woman is immune from an abuser, simply because of the abuser type's beguiling, over attentive, besotted approach early in the relationship. Early signs of control can look like thoughtfulness, and taking care. Only the most experienced and the cynical will be saying.....if it looks too good to be true, guess what....

Yes, abusers act out the analogy of the frog placed to swim in cold water, they allow you to swim happily at first , then slowly increase the temperature over time until you find yourself being boiled. The problem is trying to tell your besotted relative may just make you seem bitter - its a hard one to navigate.

It's true restart....there's nothing I can do. Her partner is her choice. She is lovely and hardworking, it's only in her relationships that she hits a blind spot.

Her mother is of the view that anyone who likes her daughter is a good guy. (And there have been some grim predecessors to this one.). I keep my misgivings private...but...it's hard.

My Father was an abusive man as was his father and now I see that trait in my brother - learned behavior - my husband is not an abusive person - I consciously looked for someone unlike my Dad - in my case it was choosing to be with someone who was capable and practised being emotionally open and was not needy for someone to feed his ego i.e. the thing that attracted me was he liked his own company and proved it by lots of time on his own, having fun travelling, hobbies not always centred around other people propping him up whether it was work etc etc he did not need me as a prop for his low ego- (my Dad was only good with the negative emotions)- and he could communicate on an emotional level without eithear of us feeling it was a flaw - that was the non negotiable for me - combining rational thought with emotion - it's a lovely combination and maybe not so rare - mind you I spent a long time looking and moved to the other end of the world - I would say my DH is strong and sensitive and is respected for it amongst those that matter - he was raised by single Mom and one sister so all female household rubbed off on him - he had not got macho ego power and control male influences apart from at school where he noticed how the fathers drove the sons in the absence of his own father - just a thought for thread - re perhaps we need to look at healthy non abusive men and what they are and have that discussion

I love what you said about your non-negotiables when looking for a partner, Emerald!

Unfortunately, "combining rational thought with emotion" was so foreign to me, I wouldn't have known it when I saw it. My first husband was unlike my father in that he was sociable, arty and extrovert (but narcissistic) and the second was different for being undemonstrative, inarticulate and practical (but sociopathic). I did discount potential partners, and friends, who were genuinely at ease with themselves because - well, I assumed it was fake. I'm guessing my dysfunctional-style communications would have put them off, too.

For a considerable time after starting therapy, I blamed my crazy upbringing for my "crazy" reactions to what I now know was abuse as an adult. I assumed a sane, rational, emotionally balanced person would simply refuse to be bullied, or to rise to manipulative bait. It's instructive to read threads on here, by perfectly well-balanced women who've also been drawn in and fallen prey to crazy-makers. Look at Lou's current threads about her Chutney man: ten years she put up with him; silencing her own doubts; devouring relationship self-help books; having rows without knowing why; crying and taking the blame. She's as sane and well-supported as they come!

Maybe my 'craziness' made me more vulnerable: tolerant to abuse, accustomed to emotional roller-coasters, and more likely to choose an abuser again. But it happens to well-adjusted people too - and makes them crazy.

Is it possible to describe healthy, non-abusive men and what they are? If someone like Lou can't tell the difference, would you or I?

Actually - just before hitting Post - there's one thing I've noticed about my family. I've started saying that, before you think about love & passion, you need proper respect. This draws a variety of responses, none of them healthy imo. Some just look as if I've said something really weird. Others rave on about respect, clearly confusing it with admiration/adoration, which is a different thing entirely.

Is respect the magic key? Or does it just happen to be a big issue in the Garlic family??

I assumed a sane, rational, emotionally balanced person would simply refuse to be bullied, or to rise to manipulative bait. ? sadly, not necessarily?? because emotionally balanced people assume others feel as they do, and can be reasoned with in the same way. This is where things start to go badly wrong. :(

The healthy victim tries out all the techniques that work on normal people ? eg, give and take, nodding and listening, helping the other person feel important ? and the situation, bafflingly, gets worse! Because the abuser is not a healthy, normal person acting out of character - but an unhealthy person acting in character. Still the victim twists and turns to try and change themselves enough, so that the relationship is tolerable.

And then we see the kind of misery apparent on this board.

Yes, you are 100% right about respect garlic - as in, treating the other as an equal. It's key!

So how else to spot a good one? some thoughts..

1. They don't feel a need to take over all the time (or help out, or however it's interpreted when it's really control)?

2. ?But they won't sit by while you're tired or working hard, assuming you'll wait on them. They do their part, or ask if you need a hand (ask - not tell)

3. They appreciate your skills and talents and would love you to take them further.

4. Love and respect you for what you are, faults and all. They don't worship and idealise you into some non-existent perfect creature.

5. They admit to faults and mistakes. Any failed past relationships are partly their fault, and they accept that.

6. They do not check up on you all the time! Too busy with their own life. If other men look at you, they can look?. and why wouldn't they, because you're gorgeous.

7. Not keen to get married?? or at least slow off the mark! Why? Because they know it is a very serious commitment. And when they do marry, they really mean it. So they want to know you very, very well before they start even thinking about it.

8. A sense of humour...but they do not crack crass or cruel jokes of any description. Crass or cruel jokes are cracked by crass and cruel people.

9. They aren't different people in public. You get the same personality in public and in private, like a stick of rock.

10. Pleasant - not glutinously, dazzlingly charming! (Gavin de Becker warns that charm is a verb...)

...hmmm, long one.. but I know there's more. Any thoughts?

..actually, good men are a bit like friends aren't they? ...but with, um, benefits?

Interesting rather than 'exciting'. Risky behaviour - addictions, speeding, thieving, extreme sports - and obsessions: too much gym, running, cycling, work, television, anything - are all "pushing the boundaries" behaviours. Stretching limits is good for us sometimes. Constantly knocking them over isn't.

Ability to relate normally to women. Absence of sexist talk.

@ fwb!

Don't ask me, 95% of my friends were narcs, too ...

Very long post! I find it hard to be concise on this subject and so much food for thought -Apologies. Garlic Nuts I think we are all very sane (more sane because of our backgrounds!) on this board and I hope I don?t come across as judgemental ? it took me till 47 years old to recognise my brother and my SIL (of about 20 years) were abusive towards me and that I had been ?enabling? towards them. It has been a huge learning curve re their abuse over the last nine months - a rebirth!. On reflection I only stood up to both of them as a result of their behaviour towards two very vulnerable people?my very ill uncle (82) with no family in Australia apart from my brother in same town and me 800 Kms away, and my SIL?s own Mother). It took their despicable treatment of the vulnerable and my SIL?s horrible treatment of my DH in one particular nasty letter to him and ultimately directly to me, for the penny to drop (complete and utter disrespect which triggered me back to childhood and my understanding of having chronic PTSD).

Respect is key I agree - I am lucky that DH is not an abuser perhaps because he knows what abuse is too and how crazymaking it is. My DH had to teach me respect when we first got together ? even down to the tone of voice I used with him. I had no idea what it was like to have a respectful partnered relationship up until aged 32. I was lucky enough that he cared enough about me to teach me this and stick around. I did not know I needed to be taught this as this is the way we related in our family but I look back now and am so grateful as I have been able to carry this over to my parenting, friendships and as I had become aware of the effects on me of this ingrained lack of respect within my family/childhood in the latter stages of Bully Dads life, nothing was left unsaid to my Dad (in a very respectful way of course ? lol).

I do feel blessed that I did not end up with an abusive partner (at least to date ? I don?t want to be smug ? we have our issues like all relationships and we are always working on our relationship) - so many of you on this forum have repeatedly ended up with abusers. I did too but it was SIL and brother who I repeated with. I did think very carefully about qualities for future partner. How could I not. My bully Dad made me feel like I wanted to exit this world. But maybe the difference for me was there were a couple of significant others in my life who saw something in me and that is what gave me the impetus to find myself and be myself. Kind Uncles, first love and teenage girlfriends in particular who confirmed my gut instinct that I was in a small way lovable (one girlfriend who I am back in touch with as of last week and she said she had no idea what was going on in my family at the time and we are now having an amazing retrospective conversation thirty years later ? thank you Facebook). I can?t tell you how good it feels to tell her and be accepted by her because I so desperately hid all that crazymaking stuff at the time, thinking I was the crazy one and feeling shame and embarrassment. I guess I am coming slowly out of the closet and do fear rejection but am doing it anyway for my healing. I have you guys to help me with that one I hope. I tell my book club too if it comes up in book discussions (you would be amazed how often it does) and it?s amazing hearing some of their stories too. One girl is writing her memoirs re serial abusive Dad. I don?t feel so alone and I have the highest respect for these women who are strong, sane, beautiful souls. There are some who do not get it having had very normal upbringings but they are very respectful to those of us who haven?t. I observe these ?normal? people and enjoy their joy in life.

I am concerned for my other SIL (bully brother?s wife) -contact has always been denied directly with her - he epitomises what others in this forum have described as abusive esp controlling her. He has called me emotionally unbalanced and the ?usual? putdowns to her so she has had no idea who I am and it?s possible she is too scared (and does not even know it) to have contact with me on her own. She is a strong sane woman too. Now they have a young baby and I fear he will be bully Dad - but what can I do. I try not to think about it too much.

As DH sister is a Narc ? she and my DH are currently in a battle re their 90 years old Mum?s end of live decisions - It?s a drama that I am watching from the front row ? I have no part to play in any way only to be a support to DH who is ultimately trying to honour his Mum?s wishes. It?s very scary to have an NPD involved in these type of decisions. Who could be more vulnerable than the old and the young and this is where they exert their most power is it not? Because DH grew up with abusive crazy maker sister too maybe there is an understanding there that circumstance through no fault of our own can make for a really difficulty life/family setting hence lots of compassion between us. We both know what abuse looks like and we help each other out when we see it. I do feel confident I can spot abuse when it is directed at me and I also know I have the choice in how I react to it. DH only put a name to his sisters traits after I did a lot of research after bully brother triggering incident. He had her sussed though for years and has good boundaries in place with her. DH respects my decision to have limited contact with her and supports me in this. He has decided he wants to be loyal to her as she is only sister. I have to respect that but it #$its me sometimes!

Lady Wordy ? Love your 10 point abuse indicator and Garlic Nuts added points on interesting rather than addictive behaviours and non?misogynistic. Essential. Very well thought out.
As an extension of point no 9 to your -They aren't different people in public. You get the same personality in public and in private, like a stick of rock. I would add that non abusers treat all people the same? they are not condescending or unkind to one and not to another ? i.e my SIL treats waiters like dirt etc. Her feeling that she is superior, puts others down and is in no way respectful. Similarly if the person is not highly educated she looks down on them. She literally fawns over others she feels worthy of respect on her terms.
Another point to consider - maybe controversial ? non-abusers know when to put somebody or something ahead of themselves when it is for the greater good ? i.e. I believe there are times when we decide that we are going to take a back seat and let someone else shine or help them even if we have to sacrifice what is important to us (not for forever or damaging to our self-esteem) maybe these are the qualities of compassion and humility.
Lady Wordy - The healthy victim tries out all the techniques that work on normal people - Still the victim twists and turns to try and change themselves enough, so that the relationship is tolerable. Very revealing - through healing we are all getting insight into ourselves ?not only identifying Crazymakers and avoiding (or at best limiting/ setting boundaries with them) the other side of the equation is about ourselves and doing the hard work to recognise the effect of the abuse on us. The goal for me is to live the life from this point on that I was denied (I seriously feel I was denied something essential - obviously I cannot go back to the past but the past has given me some real clues as to what was missing particularly with my recent trip to childhood home etc and as I have started writing about earlier life) with or without a partner but definitely without abusers. We must be true to ourselves and not change who we are because we are good people ? we have to know ourselves first and foremost and how do you do that? ? I know how I did and have written it before but it will be different for everyone. Maybe knowing ourselves comes before loving ourselves and then we know how to love ourselves lol!
Respect + Friendship +Commitment +Chemistry = maybe LOVE or whatever Love is!
I feel strongly that there are two sides to the equation.

Wow, amazing post Emerald. Thank you. It deserves a more in-depth reply I think but, for now:
non-abusers know when to put somebody or something ahead of themselves when it is for the greater good ? i.e. I believe there are times when we decide that we are going to take a back seat and let someone else shine or help them even if we have to sacrifice what is important to us (not for forever or damaging to our self-esteem) maybe these are the qualities of compassion and humility.

When and how, perhaps? I'm not sure I do recognise this in the most helpful way. I have a tendency to hop in the back seat too quickly, making perhaps too many sacrifices. On the other hand I do (now) recognise lack of compassion or humility. Just haven't established how they work to best effect

I'm sorry if this is a repeat but my last post seems to have gone
I would add Honesty to the list i.e. A person whose actions match their words. Not someone that waxes lyrical in noble terms and yet their actions reveal a passive aggressiveness and single minded selfishness. Someone that doesn't move the goal posts to suit their own agenda. Someone that isn't always the victim of other peoples actions when the truth is that they are living the consequences of their own choices, inaction and refusal to take responsibility. Someone that doesn't deliberately segregate people into Silo's so that they can freely contradict their stated values. Honesty is a very broad term and I believe as with all the other listed attributes a test to be applied to ourselves as much as to a partner. It is often just as difficult to find the ability to be deeply and truly honest with ourselves as it is to find someone else that is prepared to be completely honest with us. I think there is a broad spectrum to healthy relationships. Selflessness is an interesting term, does that imply that the partner is therefore being selfish? I'm' trying to work my way through the concept of selflessness to see if I can imagine an instance where I think it would be required in a healthy, honest relationship. Selflessness is I believe a prerequisite of being a parent. However, I thought in an adult relationship it would be more about negotiation and compromise. When you enter a relationship you do so based on a set of existing circumstances, when circumstances change you negotiate your way through them. If your partner e.g. wants to do something and there is a greater good involved then that would be part of the negotiation. If you're benefiting from that greater good it's not selfless. We all have our 'selfish' pursuits, hobbies etc. They?re just part of the standard give and take of life. We all have our times of need too but again that is give and take. Trust is the key, we trust our partners to be fair in this give and take. If it is all take on one person?s part then that has moved outside the boundaries of a healthy relationship. If someone demands help while refusing to help themselves that is untenable. I can?t think of an instance where selflessness belongs in a healthy relationship, I am thinking of examples where one partner has to lean on the othe for support. In a healthy relationship that support is not really provided as a selfless act because it?s provided with the tacit belief that should the roles have been reversed the same support would have been forthcoming. It?s part of the contract of love, the basis for marriage, relationships, family and community ? that we are there for each other in those circumstances. If we didn?t believe we?d need someone at some point, particularly as we age I think at least another 50% of people would walk away from their relationships, because compromise and negotiation is bloody hard work. In unhealthy relationships that support network is broken; there is no contract of love. When a partnership has extended beyond coupledom in to a family then the greater good of the family has to be considered also i.e. it is in fact selfish to decide to be ?selfless? for a partner if this harms the children in the process. If the ?selflessness? is related to lack of confidence and self-esteem, i.e. we go along with what our partners because we fear our ability to deal with the consequences of stepping out of line (which is a good summation of my relationship) that again is obviously not a healthy relationship. I think a healthy relationship means never losing our self.

Restart good reading - yes never losing our self in our relationships - my challenge is knowing who I am (not what I am are or what I have) who I am at my core and that it's good enough Garlic nuts with regard to my comment re compassion and humility perhaps I also mean the lack of empathy which is absent in my relationships with the abusers in my family and SIL - another is their inability to say sorry when saying sorry although might be uncomfortable for them is clearly the correct thing to do and not just my wishful thinking - hope that explains my comment of putting others first rather than their own ego.

Also the pursuit of a win win situation all the time in their relationships - not being able to ever consider anything other than this, when there are times when i believe you have to put yourself out 'i.e. fairness - even if it means something as simple as travelling a bit further or getting out of paying their way - some of it petty perhaps I know but it all adds up to someone always putting themselves first and never been able to imagine walking in another's shoes even someone they claim to care about and that might need extra support at this time - this thought helps me within my own partnership is the two sides of the equation -in order to be with the 'perfect for me' partner I have to not be a hypocrite and try to be the best version of myself - a lotta hard work.

If I don't acknowledge these things it leads to resentment and bitterness so in dealing with abusers. Its important for me to be honest about this and move on. I have very old fashioned values - the lack of duty and loyalty and their addiction to power and control displayed by my SIL and Brother concerns me but of course I don't have them as a partner which is where my posts may be not too relevant - but sharing common values and knowing what my values are and living to them is huge in keeping my relationship in tact and learning to love myself and heal and find joy again in the present! I am tired of having chronic PTSD!

I've been lurking here since it started. I find these latest posts very helpful.
Restart you say that a healthy relationship 'means never losing ourself'.
That chimes for me as I am trying to have a healthy relationship with my Family of origin....but find it nearly impossible due to the role I was given which is now so entrenched that any personal change in me is completely denied by them. I was not allowed to be me as a child; am not allowed to be me now. It means I spend virtually no time with ageing parents.
Emerald I think you said something about saying sorry.....a genuine apology can do so much to repair relationships can't it? But false ones ('sorry Miss Sensitive' said in snarky tone) deny the insult AND deny the person.