Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Crazy Makers

91 replies

garlicbutter · 22/07/2012 21:48

I have been 'triggered' into a right old state by a controversial thread in Mental Health. I am not attempting to 'diagnose' what's up with the OP, she's in a serious pickle.

Her thread's triggering factor for me is its theme of other people forcing their opinions - she's mentally unsound - onto a person who believes she is sane. It's taken me a while to figure out why it got to me. The answer is Complex PTSD, which I have although it's not a recognised diagnostic term. (I have "generalised anxiety disorder, which patient relates to her earlier diagnosed PTSD".)

This is too long for an OP. Finishing in next post.

OP posts:
greenearrings · 26/07/2012 21:53

sorry for typos

adoptive mothers/fathers for adults = psychodynamic psychotherapist......the limitations,however,are obvious Smile

garlicnutter · 27/07/2012 11:52

Greenearrings, at the time you typed that I was hunting online for photos of my old psychiatrist! I think he bigged up the fatherly aspect - he was a Jimmy Edwards schoolmaster type - and it must have worked to a degree as I wanted thoughts of a comforting Dad (not the real one) last night Grin

It looks as if he's retired, so I won't be able to stalk him. Heh.

struwelpeter · 27/07/2012 12:57

I have just been reading an extract from Marilyn Monroe book, by a US feminist. She looked for father figures in husbands and psychiatrists - always looking for parenting.
Not sure that MM analogies can go all that far, but first point is self-awareness. I'm also interested in dancing a dance with someone. I think we all do that in our relationships, but while no one ever is perfect or utterly content with their upbringing, it is when the dance becomes unhealthy and our reactions to it. I too wonder about my abusive ex's new dance with new gf. We all need to aim for equality, and not to abuse or use others or make them crazy ... I suppose that is the best anyone can hope for.

garlicnutter · 27/07/2012 13:48

I meant to come back to this:
But I wonder if labelling the perpetrator as "bad" is too easy in terms of beginning to understand what drives the behaviour,whether change is possible and where societies responsibility lies in addressing why this is so widespread.

Labels like that don't help much, no. But I look at the bullies & manipulators I have known best in my life and I see that some would have wanted to change - and couldn't - while others perceive no cause for change, so wouldn't. Therefore, they are what they are. Which, actually, is what they all say at some point.

My father was sadistic and full of pain. He was, taking the sum of his words & deeds into account, a bad person. This fact pained him. He did a lot of very good things but his thought and intents were not good. His good deeds were done when there was no loss to him, by his standards. The nature of his standards meant he'd choose the 'bad' thing if both options were equal in terms of benefit to him.

My mother is not at all a 'bad' person. She is, however, defined by what the world reflects upon her. This makes her harmful, without harmful intent: the way children do harm. We were talking about meditation: she says she doesn't need a method, as when she's in a static situation she can "fold in on herself". I've often seen her do this. I asked what she found inside. "Nothing," she says, "It's completely empty; I feel peaceful." She is a multi-faceted, mirrored surface and no more.

My intuition about X1 is that he's full of yearning. His childhood wasn't good, but he believes it was good and just. He, too, desires a great deal of validation - he's a classic Narcissist, complete with beautiful possessions, popularity, mood swings, tantrums and self-obsession. I'd say the self-obsession is his defining quality. He does good things and thinks he's a good person, but doesn't actually care about others' welfare. He would only consider changes that further enhance his public image.

X2 has an autistic-like misunderstanding of people and the world around him, coupled with hyper-sensitive vision & hearing. He is a brilliant mimic. His world construct is that of a zero-sum game, which he must win, and he has no moral compunction to limit his tactics. He really enjoys putting one over on people. My intuition is that his emotions are restricted to fury, resentment and triumph. He doesn't care what people think of him and has no wish to change at all, as he often says. I feel he is empty inside, too.

Crazy ex-flatmate is a lot like X2 - they got on very well together, though neither liked the other - but with X1's vanity attached. Despite sharing 7 years of our lives, I never found out what was 'inside' her and I don't think she wanted to look. Perhaps she was both yearning and furious? She fits the NPD profile exactly. As long as she gets constant adulation, at someone else's cost, she doesn't want to change. When she loses her main supply (10 years, for her) she simply moves to another feed.

So ... I'm only interested in these people's inner selves to the extent that they teach me about my own dysfunctions. They won't change because they can't, and wouldn't choose change if they could. I can characterise them as 'bad' because they harmed me - some unintentionally, but the harm was real. They were able to harm me because I was over-invested in forming positive relationships with them. Essentially, I hoped they would change ... into rounded characters with the full range of emotional & cognitive expressions. That was, I think, unrealistic and wasteful of my efforts.
I'm interested to know why you want to see if they can change, green?

garlicnutter · 27/07/2012 13:49

struwelpeter - YY re dance and equality!

Emerald50 · 27/07/2012 13:58

Thnx Garlic butter and Green Earrings and Restart for support - We are all a work in progress and I can see the insights from this thread can only help. One of the things I get really angry about is how invisible I am or my pain is - wearing my heart on my sleeve is a cry to be understood and to get the same recognition that society gives others who may be physically unwell. I have a very strong need that people understand what happened to make me so emotional and sad and to see my strength and that they become outraged instead of 'oh you need to forgive him' . I do forgive my parents but I am outraged for all who did not speak up because a child has to be protected. That we may be sensitive souls who are caring people means we do not bounce back without lots of the right type of support which takes a bit of working out and part of that is deciding when we are ready to take on a new relationship and whether it is going to be a 'real' relationship i.e. being accepted as we are for who we are for all our strength and vulnerability and our past - it is very liberating when you take an educated chance on someone who is capable of sharing or relating to your pain. Take heart I think there are dance partners out there who will take the past on board - it is part of our journey and although there is shame for every victim each crazy maker or bully or NPD or BPD out there has usually left carnage around them so it's a matter of honing our skills to connect with caring,kind,sensitive souls who understand emotional abuse and can dance too and you will find that tango partner!

Orkward · 27/07/2012 14:26

I can really relate to so much that's been said on this thread, it's very strange to read.

I had a very bullying sexually harassing boss - went on for years and I felt very traumatised by it and by the process of reporting it trying to deal with it properly.

I'm just realising how wrong my relationship is, how many things I've ignored or covered up or pretended weren't happening because of his mh issues or my inability to know how to handle it. Now, all these things are crowding in at once, the realisation of what has happened, and my anxiety is completely out of my control, I feel really unwell, not sleeping or eating.

I'd not thought about ptsd, but there are so many incidents that have been traumatic that it does make sense.

greenearrings · 27/07/2012 19:21

re change...
I see change happen in my work (teaching emotional coping and mindfulness (dbt)....) I experience people - men and women with a variety of "labels" ,BPD being one,engage in treatment and learn to understand what drives their behaviour and to learn healthier ways to cope and to live. I see these changes maintained over time..I hear people talk about how they wish they had understood year ago.....I advocate treatment and encourage people to enter it......
These,however,are people whowant to change. who are ready to examine themselves and accept personal responsibility for their actions. A huge part of the process is "radical acceptance" - learning that we cannot change the past,but must find a way to live in the present,for the future. And compassion.

I do not believe anyone can change unless they want to. And then work hard over a long period of time.
Some people will not do this. Are they unable to? Too damaged? My professional position is to hold out hope to people who present for treatment,that change is always possible.
But personally,I do suspect that some damage is sustain so early,and is so severe that the costs of even beginning to look at oneself will be too great,in terms of the pain involved in accepting any responsibility for our actions.Easier to stay "bad" then?

I do not personally believe any baby is born bad. but we have a genetic loading to contend with,and what happens next - and the sense we make of it as we begin to think for ourselves - may set badness deeply into ourselves,so that it cannot be changed....?

also,I have behaved badly to others,before I began to accept responsibility for myself. I have changed. I know it is possible.And i know how painful it is to carry the realisation of what i have done in the past ,and would do differently with the insight I have now......
....think how unspeakable it would be for some of the people who have behaved catastrophically badly to consider themselves culpable in any way......easier to blame others - from the past or present...and look for more to blame in the future.....that,I am sure,is what drives a lot of badness....though probably not consciously...

And also,there must be hope that humanity/society/the world/whatever you prefer can change and accept responsibility...to break the cycle of cruelty and abuse that nations do.....
The debate about smacking starts and ends with this perspective ,for me.

greenearrings · 27/07/2012 19:25

Alice Millar is my guru on this.

Restart · 28/07/2012 05:43

I agree, people must really want to change, and must be realistic that change is going to take hard work, but not just hard work there must be progression. One can spend a lifetime examining ones own navel. I believe there has to be forward momentum in this search. One has to allow oneself to become very uncomfortable, one has to let go of what one thinks 'should be' and deal with 'what is'.
I relate to the feeling of ignorance as to what a healthy relationship feels like, there are two opposing ends that I am familiar with - the partners are direct abuser or enablers, both are equally thwarting. I believe the type of abuse I suffered with my ex only existed because of my susceptability to it, I think if I had had greater self esteem I would have determined at the very begining that this person could be a nice friend but not a partner, once our dynamic was set in play then he wore me down and i was worn down. I am hoping that my recent relationship has taught me some more about that. Basically that people will treat me the way I allow them to treat me. The other end of the spectrum is equally unappealing to me, to have someone accept me as permanently damanged, and spend 10,20, 30 years dancing around the damage.
That is the tricky thing. I've been conciously changing and hope to continue. I would need to find someone that see's that and can cope with the potential for further change. I don't want to be emotionally stunted again. I don't mean change to my core self i.e. that I would become a stranger over time, but in my emotional responses. I would like to further develop my emotional boudaries, maintain empathy at an appropriate level. I would like someone that could recognise when damage is on display, acknowledge it to me (not sweep it under the carpet or accept it as all I'm capable of being) and allow me the emotional space to work on the damage and to make me feel supported and accepted in that process. There must be progress though, if there is not progress then I need to rethink and try something else.
I think there is danger in becoming stuck in a rut of self discovery and repair and that we may in OCD style continuously strip away, repaint and strip away again at the same issues, because we reach a level where we are either to afraid to delve deeper or simply conditioned to being 'in recovery' and using it in itself as an excuse for avoiding life.

Restart · 28/07/2012 06:41

sorry hit submit on the above post (when answering the phone) without having a chance to change my standard spelling and grammar sins. I am in a militant mood today. I feel that we all have to heal at our own pace BUT sometimes we have to set up our own internal boot camp and get ourselves fired up to tackle that next god damn hurdle, rather than prostrate ourselves below it in the mud and while wallowing view it as insurmountable from our lowly perspective. We come to these forums and are so enlightened by the perspectives of others, but we can also give ourselves a fresh perspective. We aren't stuck. I read a blog recently which gave me real food for thought, it was asking women to challenge the notion that they were unable to change the 'that's just how I am' mentality. It asked something like 'have you ever changed your behaviour for your relationship e.g. to keep the peace? to please someone else?' It's premise was if you can change to suit someone else, then you can change for yourself. I'm very losely paraphrasing and i hope I haven't entirely lost the meaning in doing so. It struck me though, that I had felt somewhat fixed in spite of the changes I've worked so hard to make, but then I remembered the changes I made simply as a matter of course to enable a relationship to continue. Strange how effortless when for other people and how much hard work when for myself. Also, I think self esteem is difficult to develop if one lives in a reclusive way, I think part of building the self love we all need to heal is in putting ourselves 'out there' as an equal to others. Not only in a dating sense, but as part of our society. To put ourselves out there and say this is me and I'm not ashamed of who I am (whether we believe it or not at first) is a big step towards healing. Some may reject us, a lot may, that doesn't matter, we reserve the right to reject the people we don't want in our lives also. I lost my train of thought when the phone rang and am rambling now. To fight off the people that may potentially make us feel crazy we need to reserve our elasticity for ourselves and the changes we wish to make to ourselves for our own improvement, we need to have the 'read only' setting in place when it comes to others. By changes I meand and include the erosion of confidence that comes from absorbing toxic interactions.

garlicnutter · 28/07/2012 09:43

we need to have the 'read only' setting in place when it comes to others

I like your expression there, Restart! It's about giving up the narcissistic dance, isn't it, where both dancers' moves are determined by the follower's reactions to the leader. Healthier 'dances' are free-form: a continuous interplay of leads and follows on both sides. I agree with much else of what you say, but to me it's about loving myself as fully as I've loved other people rather than testing myself against external relationships, iyswin.

Restart · 28/07/2012 10:59

yes gb that's what I mean , it's about loving ourselves so that we need never fear facing others, because we know we can take care of ourselves right down to an emotional level. I thinkI can tend to hide away. my mother and grandmother were and are respectively both reclusive so it's a tendency i'm very mindful of. I'm not sure about my grand mother, but I think she simply withdrew.My mother is unbearable to be around. For years I allowed myself to be made feel guilty for not having a 'normal' relationship with her, constantly had people saying 'but she's your mum' etc. My mother drove everyone away with her sheer toxicity. I was made to feel guilty for not making more of an effort with her, but 1. she made it virtually impossible not answering her phone/opening her door, changing her number and not giving anyone her new number, not turning up etc etc. (I of course covered up this aspect of her for the most part so I took the full brunt of the 'blame' for the lack of contact) and 2. 'she' does not respond it's her illness that relates to the outside world, no empathy no rational thoughts, there is no relatable person there that can be reached, yet even knowing that she can bring me down and continue to damage me. I can see my sister drifting towards the tendency to withdraw now too. She dealt with things by being a controller and is finding it difficult to deal with her kids growing up and not being so compliant. I can see bitterness setting in that they are not more grateful, but of course her method of control was to take over everything for them and indulge them so now they are 'helpless' adults with an overblown sense of entitlement - the youngest in particular. I noticed on her recent visit to this country that she now finds me less compliant than I have previously been and can't deal with it, she withdrew. I can see her doing it more in her home life too. I struggle with a lot of the social situations i push myself into, but I feel it's something I must do for me. I live with a fish out of water feeling in most settings, I dont feel that I fit in here here but then go back to Ireland and know for sure I dont belong there. If I allowed myself to withdraw I would find it difficult to gather the courage to face the world again.

garlicnutter · 28/07/2012 11:25

Have you seen Wobbly's MLC thread? Her OP contains a guide to making your spouse crazy. Very accurate, ime!

I think this was written for people whose spouses have suddenly 'changed'. Wobbly has said her partner is diagnosed with NPD so she would have been living with crazy-making for a considerable time. I don't happen to believe in mid-life crisis, at least not in this way, but, if it were all down to that, X2's MLC began as soon as we got engaged Wink (He was 31: a bit young for mid-life!)

Restart · 28/07/2012 11:54

my ex was behaving as if in crisis for at least a year before we split up and until very recently. In the last couple of days I have spoken to him and recognised the person of old. I can still sense that he is anxious, but he I don't feel afraid of him or the Mr Hyde character he was for those years. I reas somewhere years ago that men that had difficult relationships with their mothers are more prone to mid life crisis and the description it gave of the type of crisis was exactly what occurred with my ex. I think he has NPD but in the past 4 years he moved so much further along the spectrum he became unrecognisable. He went from being a selfish , passive aggressive bore to down right frightening. I felt that he would have hit me over the head with a shovel just to get me out of the picture if he had thought he could get away with it. I went from being his partner to being simply 'in the way'. I can now see the version of him that our friends saw, that is to say he is polite and pleasant and talks about his concern for our kids in the face of the impending birth of his next child, he says all the right things, and if I didn't know him so well and didn't know the background to some of what he's saying better than he realises I do. I would be sucked in by his Narcissist delusion He completely believes it all himself , he constructs an image and then immediately forgets that it is his own construct and occupies it. However, he seems to have moved back down to a more manageable level of the scale of NPD which makes my life less stressful in terms of parenting with his involvement. This all belongs on the other thread...

Restart · 28/07/2012 12:31

yes I remember that mlc for dummies post, reading it brought me right back to the time just after my break up when I was struggling to comprehend what had happened and how my life had imploded. It is surreal that such a pattern is played out so regularly around the world, it is so scripted.
Do you remember this one (the original source seems to have been deleted, but I copied it on to my blog 2 years ago).I'll post the link on the other thread also.
www.restartyourlife.info/?p=53

Emerald50 · 28/07/2012 12:39

Just read Alice Miller - Thanks - Wow - Perfect timing. I feel I am moving forward in my healing - hope you are ok Orkward - it's a huge shock when the penny drops - we can't be too hard on ourselves - getting on this forum and access to others journeys and sharing resources is a remarkable achievement - it takes a lot of time and I can't always see the progress in myself but it is being made - I just know that much - until I am tested again I guess and then I will know by just how much - a key word for healthy relationships is Respect - for ourselves first and foremost and for others who are deserving of it - I.e. that they treat themselves with respect by facing up to themselves - warts and all - none of us are perfect - we are not supposed to be - having the courage to admit that and do something about it is what counts - I don't think we can get stuck on the road - sometimes I have to take a break and reflect - time alone to reflect has always served me well in tandem with trusted confidantes and asking for help - hard to do too

garlicnutter · 28/07/2012 14:10

Thanks for that link, Restart. This bit: "Not only did he blame me for the failure of the marriage, but he also resorted to DEFAMING my character. How could he believe that I am such an evil being after having loved me for years?? invokes the damage done by crazy-makers.

OK, a completely secure individual would know they're being unfairly treated (and have supportive resources) but this kind of trashing can and does throw even the strongest person into a nightmare of fear and self-doubt. Because the 'weaknesses' being exploited are love, trust and respect. For those of us whose default position is self-doubt, this raises a lifetime's worth of fears: not that our good qualities are being exploited, but that our qualities are not good after all.

I agree with you about respect. It's now my non-negotiable. I even reject family teasing now, which may make me look somewhat humourless but I won't make a joke out of character assassination.

Orkward · 28/07/2012 14:49

I read the MLC post and convinced myself that it's me! I think I'm doing all the first things on that list - demonising my partner by going over every bad thing that's happened and blowing it up, becoming emotionally detached, obsessing about my own feelings, creating bafflement and confusion, what if i'm actually a crazy maker rather than someone made crazy?

Since first admitting that things in my relationship are wrong, I've easily convinced myself that i have some kind of personality disorder making me saboutage everything and maximise it and talk myself into something. If i list the things that have happened, people tell me i'm right to feel scared and want to get out - so I swing constantly between the two things, needing to be told that yes, things are bad, and then convincing myself that it's some kind of awful flaw in my own personality that's just creating these problems while he is really not that bad. it's exhausting and confusing.

garlicnutter · 28/07/2012 15:24

Ah, yes, Orkward. The embarrassing outcomes of being made crazy ...
I have:
Obsessively gone through his phone
Had long, pointless conversations with his friends, trying to find out what he's been up to
Thrown stuff, overturned restaurant tables, had stand-up meltdowns in crowded places
Snogged his friend
Monitored the mileage on both cars
Rung numbers off his phone to see if they were answered by the listed person
Tried to catch him out in conversation
Moped around in his vicinity like a lovestruck teenager
Gone apeshit at him for gawping at attractive women
Gone through his box of old paperwork
Accused him of shagging practically every woman he was friendly with
Acted like a perfect wife on meth, all polish and bright smiles
Stayed up late to 'talk' about our relationship
Screeched and sobbed. A lot.
I'm sure there's more.
Was I mad? Yes, without a doubt. I did everything in the Insecure & Unstable, Possessive Woman's Handbook. Bizarrely, nobody pointed out a relationship that made me this unhappy was bad for me. They - even my own close friends - wanted me to chill out, take a step back, stop pushing him away.
Whereas, in reality (took years to piece things together), he was doing really crazy, weird and egregious things. My suspicions were not only unfounded, they din't go far enough. But I was the one who acted crazy. He found it amusing, I think.

garlicnutter · 28/07/2012 15:28
  • My suspicions were not only well founded, they didn't go far enough.
garlicnutter · 28/07/2012 15:50

I should add, he was accusing me of being an Insecure & Unstable, Possessive Woman well before I became one.

At first the dissonance was so great - I knew I wasn't; even his stupidly laddish friends said I was laid back - I ignored it. Or, perhaps more accurately, couldn't process it so shoved it in Room 101 of my mind. After a while I started countering his accusations ... and this became arguments about whether his actions were reasonable ... when the only action I'd questioned was his accusation! Whenever I tried to de-escalate one of these rows, it became about me "controlling him" so I would, irrationally, go out of my way to be very un-controlling. This gave him more leeway to do more peculiar things, and when I questioned ^them: well, the crazy dance started for real.

garlicnutter · 28/07/2012 15:52

This: the accusation of being something I wasn't: is what the Freedom Programme calls defining.

Orkward · 28/07/2012 15:58

I've had no possessive feelings or irrational behaviour towards him, I just feel so full of doubt and confusion that all the steps I'm taking to protect myself feel like saboutage and deceipt.

By listing the bad things that have happened, I'm making him sound like a monster. By distancing myself from him, i'm becoming emotionally detached. By being so confused and full of doubt, I'm creating a muddled and confused situation, but most of all - by finally talking to people and telling people the bad things, I'm being disloyal and horrible and creating drama where none needs to be. This is someone who forced me to have sex with him - but I'm totally spinning in circles thinking that it can't be true, it must be me, there's something wrong with me. I can't seem to believe the people who tell me it's not my fault and I really want to.

garlicnutter · 28/07/2012 16:07

I've easily convinced myself that i have some kind of personality disorder - I was so sure I had BPD, I requested diagnosis (twice). I displayed so many of the symptoms, diagnosis was granted (twice). I do not have a personality disorder; it's official!

As greenearrings mentioned, BPD and PTSD share several characteristics.