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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Crazy Makers

91 replies

garlicbutter · 22/07/2012 21:48

I have been 'triggered' into a right old state by a controversial thread in Mental Health. I am not attempting to 'diagnose' what's up with the OP, she's in a serious pickle.

Her thread's triggering factor for me is its theme of other people forcing their opinions - she's mentally unsound - onto a person who believes she is sane. It's taken me a while to figure out why it got to me. The answer is Complex PTSD, which I have although it's not a recognised diagnostic term. (I have "generalised anxiety disorder, which patient relates to her earlier diagnosed PTSD".)

This is too long for an OP. Finishing in next post.

OP posts:
Restart · 28/07/2012 16:11

It's not yout fault orkward. You appear to have the same distorted view of loyalty as me. You need to talk. Stop protecting him at your expense. x

garlicnutter · 28/07/2012 16:40

I understand that, Ork. I have a permanent injury from his rapes, yet I never acknowledged what he did :( Similarly, I refused to believe my own eyes when I saw him with an OW - literally, I saw him but told myself it wasn't him. (There's more to this story, which makes me even more self-deluding.)

You say that listing the bad things about him makes him sound like a monster. Is he a monster? There must be some appealing things about him! Isn't it more likely he's selfish and dishonest? A monster sounds so awful. He, on the other hand, sounds like a man who hid his worse qualities from you until you were caught. You're not wrong to identify his unpleasant qualities, or that he misled you. But you didn't make the worst mistake ever; you were tricked. And I imagine he still has enough of the good stuff that you can see why you fell for his trick.

Do you feel as if you "deserve" to be pushed around?

Orkward · 28/07/2012 16:50

No he isn't a monster. He has good qualities, and we've been together half of my life, it's been a very gradual thing. I think that it's only facing these things now, after years - they all come flying up to the surface at once, which is overwhelming and unsettling. Meanwhile he's fine, life is normal.

That sounds horrific garlic Sad

garlicnutter · 28/07/2012 17:05

It always sounds horrific when it's somebody else! But, yes, it is hard to accept bad things are done to you personally. I'm convinced it's harder to accept when you were pre-conditioned to abuse - trained to minimise abuses committed against oneself. I also think the pre-conditioning leads to the confusion you've described. For as much as you know it is wrong, a large part of you flips into minimisation and self-blame mode as per conditioning.

garlicnutter · 28/07/2012 22:07

sea, I didn't really know how to reply to your post. I'm sorry I left it so long - and very sad to hear you've 'imprisoned' yourself at home so as to feel safe.

You know, to a child, parental neglect and contempt are life threatening. I can remember how incredibly huge and terrifying my dad seemed when angry - in fact, friends who met him after I'd grown up were surprised to find he was actually a small man, because I'd given the impression he was powerfully built. Resultant Complex PTSD tends to feature emotional flashbacks, which are rarely like the event replays known in classic (single event) PTSD.

Emotional flashbacks give you the sensation of being back in a traumatic situation - generally that of a small child feeling threatened. It's common to feel as if you are physically smaller than usual and as if nobody can hear you. Emotionally, it feels exactly like being an intimidated child and we tend to fall back into the survival strategies we adopted then. Pete Walker classes those strategies as "fight, flight, freeze or fawn". As we are not children now, our feelings of intimidation are rarely appropriate and, thus, neither are our responses. I was forever fighting or fawning over Mad Boss - these were the only responses he sought and, like a little game program, I responded in full flashback mode. (When I think of him now, I imagine him taller and more imposing than he was.) Predecessors had taken the following approaches to his bullying: Expressing his irrationality and walking out; Manipulating him through his vanity; Bullying him harder. None of these featured in my range of options, even after I'd spoken to those others about him - so my CPTSD locked me in my scared-child pattern, dancing abuse with the boss, unable to contemplate alternative recourses. I did get the bastard fired in the end; it was important to me. But I was too ill to take it to a tribunal, which would have been far more satisfying.

I have Walker's 13-step Flashback Management pinned to my wall. Would it be of use to you, sea?

Emerald50 · 29/07/2012 02:11

Very revealing Flashback link thnx Garlic - I am a flight/fawn - after I escaped physically from my Dad and crazy maker family dynamic I moved to six different countries over 10 years!!! I remained mainly single during this time (no long term or live-in partners!) i knew i was damaged and and that is what saved me I now realise from an abusive marriage - I had a close call with an abusive partner but luckily he was not interested in me (he saw i did not love myself and he needed perhaps someone to reflect off ). Guys would run a mile from me as i was so emotionally needy at that time which I totally forgive myself for now even if it is a tad embarrassing to think about - it was not my fault and and I am not ashamed of it - my Dad is the one that should be held to account in a perfect world but he did not give a damn or was not conscious of how destructive he was- that is part of what saved me that i knew what I didn't want and bully Dad did not do emotion very well - I think we all need to remember we are acting entirely N0RMALLY given the abuse we suffered or are currently suffering - our abusive circumstances are abnormal - I had a broken heart for years and damage - a Termination - at least I saw the world whist i was heartbroken and found myself and began to like myself bit by bit And forgive myself as i had to rely on myself a lot of the time - the fawn in me comes out in paid work situations as opposed to my parenting role - I can't seem to set healthy boundaries and cannot relate well with non compassionate co-workers - i.e. office politics and Witholders - I'm not sure this is the right thread for me as I enjoy very healthy marriage ATM in any case - we are almost 17 years together - am definitely ingrained PTSD but I really feel hopeful ATM that I am healing and I feel very supported by a very emotionally healthy partner, friends and non bully siblings and internet- my mh sister always thanks me for caring enough for her to do 'tough love' with her though it hasn't always being appreciated over the years and has done my head in when I am physically in the same country as her - she needs boundaries and because she is my sister I cannot walk away only when she gets abusive with me - the healthier i get the more i am able to look after myself - all the posts and links have been so helpful to me - thanks

Restart · 29/07/2012 02:55

A person that forces someone to have sex is a rapist and that is a monstrous act. We find it so hard to call them what they are, we are conditioned to cover for them and play down their abuse. We feel their shame for them. It is not your fault Ork, i cant say that enough.

garlicnutter · 29/07/2012 10:02

I'm not sure this is the right thread for me as I enjoy very healthy marriage ATM in any case - we are almost 17 years together - am definitely ingrained PTSD but I really feel hopeful ATM that I am healing and I feel very supported by a very emotionally healthy partner, friends and non bully siblings

Personally, I feel I could learn a lot from you, Emerald, if you choose to stick around on this thread :) I've no experience of a supportive partner, my siblings are damaged in denial and I've distanced myself from friends out of - er, shame.

garlicnutter · 29/07/2012 10:05

Reiterating this, Ork: "A person that forces someone to have sex is a rapist".
:(

Orkward · 29/07/2012 12:30

Yes Sad
And still sleeping next to that person and eating with them and sharing normal life is really, very crazy making.

Restart · 29/07/2012 14:52

I'm so sorry you are still in that situation Ork i cant begin to imagine your inner turmoil. Is there any way you could get some space ? A weekend at a friends place, to get clearer perspective? x

Orkward · 29/07/2012 21:20

Yes going to go away for a week soon with children, hoping that a bit of time away from home will help. other plans have fallen through recently and so I'm still really unsure what to do long term - I know what i need but not the right way to get it.

seaofyou · 30/07/2012 00:31

Ork sometimes you cant see what is happening until the situation has stopped. I am hoping this week away sheds some reflection for you and your situation.

Emerld you write so well...your parents are classic stiff upper lip must not discuss etc and yes MH such a stigma back then....hasnt still moved on much either! It was hell for you growing up and you have survived! you are extremely strong!

Thank you garlicbutter for the 13 step flashback guide! Although it is not for 'simple' PTSD the 'STOP' and tell yourself you are safe, it is not real etc at first are very apporpriate. I returned to my early 30s when my brother died for those flashbacks...but NLP has stopped them completely!

However the PTSD type of hypervigulance state and hypersensitiveness and dont forget the startled response that leaves me clinging to the ceiling when ex used to attack and comes back everytime I see an awful outcome on the news for dc and or their mothers murder makes me imprisoned with fear in my home and this 13 step might be better for.

I am convinced once a person experiences flashbacks the likelyhood of repeated ones for other situations is high chance? Like the gate is open. But I see a difference between what I class as single PTSD and complex PTSD, but both just as disabling, difficult and to get over..maybe complex many years longer if not forever? With the complex I see a repeated return of the Narc abuser! Is this coincidence...or is this is what the books go on about 'victims needing counselling for years later' ?

It is reassurring to know I am hypervigulant not paranoid when ex gaslights!

Emerald50 · 30/07/2012 11:25

I went to a seminar at a parenting workshop last year and the presenting psychologist/pharmacist!came up with the acronym SEA for measuring healthy relationships S- do you feel Safe, E - is it Easy, A - do you feel Adored! There was a lot of shuffling and nervous giggles at this from us particularly about the adored bit but the Safe had to be non-negotiable. Stay safe Orkward

seaofyou · 30/07/2012 13:50

Oh I didn't know that acronym Emerald so pure coincidence that SEA with my name lol! Easy for me to remember then! Actually if you look at my name title ...what do you think? It was a piece of music ex said he wrote for me...I later finds out he tells the ex he left me for the same crap story! With lyrics of 'I fall deep into the sea of you'
Ex was actually writing lyrics about himself! If you look into water you see reflection of oneself! So a mirror! It is the most Narcissistic song I have heard and I have used this title to remind me he is a Narcissist!

Restart · 30/07/2012 23:04

fb.trove.com/fbwapolabs/mobile/mobile/me/channels/75845/content/Kzyh6?internal_path=oauth
Article on tapping therapy and possible benefits for people with ptsd and/or anxiety

seaofyou · 30/07/2012 23:33

Restart can't open it but the tapping as states in title is NLP! Done under hypnotic or relaxed state where the unconscious mind is open to suggestion too at same time as tapping! It literally gave my life back! It stops the replaying of events so no flashes or back in the situation! Totally amazing! If NHS offered this simple cost effective treatment that the max 10 sessions of CBT can't even touch! Then the waiting lists for anxiety, PTSD, phobias etc would be wiped out and mental health services would have time for the other serious mental illnesses and people who suffered for years be able to get some quality of living back fast!
I am going to do a course on it to help ds who suffers with anxiety because of AS and know other life threatening situations re attacks on house ds was present and being physically abused by df I know ds has PTSD also.

garlicnutter · 31/07/2012 11:27

I think anything that reduces misplaced fear is useful. Tapping doesn't do it for me but I have other tricks, also learned under hypnotherapy, and practise Pete Walker's steps often. However, they don't deal with the underlying beliefs and behaviour patterns that lead us to malfunction again and again. I've never seen any reputable practitioner claim these can be altered by any other means than committed, long-term psychotherapy and rehearsal.

This CPTSD thing is similar to Stockholm Syndrome. It is in the captive's interests to form a relationship with her captor, no matter what issues the captor may have. She comes to devote all of her thoughts & efforts to him: getting to know the nuances of his every mood; aiming to please him for small favours and to persuade/manipulate him for reduced punishments. It's such an all-consuming project that, over time, she loses the identity she had prior to the capture and becomes, instead of a free & independent individual, fully purposed to 'mirror' her aggressor. This is a good parallel of what happens to people in abusive relationships.

When the first such relationship occurred in one's childhood, the Stockholm effect forms the child's only belief system which explains why abused children so often grow up to have abusive relationships. It's what they are equipped for.

The therapy I've done and am doing uses assorted means to identify unhelpful and rigid beliefs, discover more helpful, flexible ones, and to replace the old with the new. The third part of this - replacement - can be facilitated with tools such as tapping, but I'm afraid the first two have to be done over time, with much uncomfortable self-examination and firework displays of lightbulb discoveries!

Orkward · 31/07/2012 21:11

Some of that is uncomfortably familiar. I worry that years of living with dp and his mh issues, it's been so all consuming, I definitely am so tuned to every mood and switch how I react immediately. I've been miserable and sad for a few days, but can only show that because he's been relaxed and carefree, as soon as he switched to a bad mood i had to flick a switch and change to compensate. I worry about what's left of me outside of this, it's quite a scary thought.

Emerald50 · 04/08/2012 03:08

My recent epiphany as a result of returning to the scene of the crime - my childhood home and country as a 48 year old and viewing objectively my Mums role in our family dysfunction, as opposed to my Dad being the main abuser and my Mum a Saint for putting up with him, is leading me so deep and so much back to the past that it's a little scary. Hence I am writing all my thoughts down here because I need too in a safe place. It is the first time I am able to view my Mum's role objectively. I think the lack of connection/attachment feelings of safety and security from my parents and the terror of my sister's illness shaped me and created a feeling of off-balance where I was left to figure out at a very early age how to get the approval, love,respect I didn't get and that was essential to my survival. I did not look within the family or extended family as that was my instinct not too and we were all as siblings pitted against each other by our Father. Even significant others in my life i.e. kind aunts or uncles were criticized by my Father. I have always had great girlfriends in particular that helped me so much and to this day I value them so much. I looked for love in other people and not myself though. I did not know that I needed to do that first and foremost. I do know that now.

Enter my Prince or first love - it was love at first sight for me - to this day I remember it as if it was yesterday - so powerful - I was not strong enough to look after my own emotional needs and I never told him about home situation as I was sure he would run a mile. He was/is strong emotionally and I felt vey safe with him and a bond was formed that I think lasts to this day (we were out of touch for 14 years). Although it was young love and not a sexual love we weaved in and out of each others lives from about ages 14 to 23 years and then he moved to Amsterdam and I lived in London. We met up as adults in Dublin on a weekend we were both home and he later wrote to me in London wanting to reconnect and see where it would and I wrote back to say I would like to keep in touch again too. I found out 11 years later that he never got my return letter - that is what he told me. How I know this is -when I was back at the family home with husband and two year old on a holiday at aged 37 he stopped by our house which is on a main road where on that day my Father was painting the front gate pillars and he introduced himself and asked - whatever happened to Emerald? And my Dad said 'oh you have just missed her, she is gone shopping in town and she is married now with a young baby to an Aussie and lives in Australia and is home on holidays' the most bizzare thing about this 'coincidence' was my Dad earlier that day had told me to bring all my junk from my old room back to Australia or burn it and when I was going through it I had found the 14 year old letter from FL and was yearning to know where he was, what happened to him and was thinking of him on this day of all days. I remember praying I would bump into him when I believe I had not had this thought in 14 years as I had pretty much decided fate had intervened and it was not to be although of course I would have thought about him every now and then I think. I had got on with my life - travelled a lot, lots of jobs, interests, met my husband and marriage, house and babies - very busy time. Lots of therapy too!

I rang him that evening and we all met up in the pub and got on very well. My husband and my FL - wow. So every two years when I am back in Dublin I would eithear call him and chat on phone or meet up with him and once with both our two year olds - who got on famously - a boy and a girl! Who we jokingly bethrothed to each other. He is still married now with three children like me and appears by all accounts quite content with the way life has worked out for him and I am very happy for him and very proud of him for being the great guy I remember.

When I returned home two months ago I met up with him and we both bumped into another mutual friend of ours also an ex- boyfriend of mine that I had gone out with on the rebound from FL - I was only 15! What I now know is a transition relationship- To cut it short my first love said had he known what was going on in my life (he still does not know the extent of what was going on as I was too , confused, scared to speak about it to anyone in detail) or that i was unhappy he would have saved me! That was about seven weeks ago and now I can see that is what I wanted - to be saved. But I saved myself. The challenge in life for me now is to act to my values and principles and boy that can be so hard in this complicated world.

omg I cannot believe everything that is being dredged up right now - is this healing or being stuck in the past?

garlicnuts · 16/08/2012 23:11

Thanks for your moving post, Emerald, and I'm sorry I didn't reply. To your last sentence - I feel we're drawn to triggers that raise questions we're ready to face: if not completely, perhaps somewhat. It's just happened to me. I'll post about it later. How are you feeling now? Did you work through some stuff, or put it aside for the time being?

Lots of what you've written resonate very strongly with me. I, too, realised my Mums role in our family dysfunction, as opposed to my Dad being the main abuser and my Mum a Saint for putting up with him decades after beginning to resolve my feelings about my dad (they never were fully resolved until 5 years after his death, however). Once I began to see how massively she failed us, it was more difficult to encompass than Dad's abuse. He was violent, cruel & nasty. He had his good points - the ones Mum loved more than she loved her children's wellbeing. I'd respected, loved, defended and modelled myself on a woman who preferred to ask what was wrong with me, her child, than to reject the man who hated me. It's a spaghetti-like mass of emotion, and that spaghetti is my own identity. It's taking time and a lot of depressing work to unravel; I'm irrationally scared I'll find nothing inside when I'm done!!

I, too, have nice aunts from whom I'm too distant to confide in (the other nice rellies are dead). My cousins may as well be strangers, for all the relationship I have with them. It feels much too late to bridge the gaps created by my bonkers parents :(

Your story about First Love and Aussie Husband is lovely! Funny how things come together sometimes, isn't it? The challenge in life for me now is to act to my values and principles - Yes, it's hard. I'm aware of having conflicting sets of values/principles/beliefs - the idealistic ones and the cynical ones - and that real balance actually lies between the two. I believe I'm getting closer to 'balance' but it's hard. It takes it out of me big time.

garlicnuts · 16/08/2012 23:34

The current thread about a marital rape has raised quite an impressive set of monsters for me. Not only has the same thing happened to me, but several wonderful replies from survivors of past rapes rattled me. They describe the after-effects of refusing to fully acknowledge the enormity of rape, powering through and moving on without 'dealing' with it completely. These posts were written to illustrate why it's better for the OP to name what happened, put the responsibility where it belongs and to seek professional advice.

Well, I did none of that. One date rape as a virgin, one sexual assault with rohypnol and repeated anal rapes by both husbands. Plus other sexual assaults. All acknowledged by me - not by the perpetrators - and then dismissed. Reading those other accounts of anxiety, depression, social dysfunction, low self-worth and abusive relationships ... my jaw literally dropped open. For the first time, I've made a connection between my issues and the rapes. More, actually: I've made a connection between my childhood, the rapes and the abusive relationships. In essence, it goes like this: It is my DUTY to accept pain, mainly from men but anyone will do. It is my duty to be sexually compliant. I must be brave.

None of my many therapists have been interested in discussing the rapes. In fairness to them, I might have given off signals that I wasn't ready to process them any more than I had. Now I am. I started writing about it this evening, but couldn't continue all in one go. This is a good sign, I think - it means the feelings are real. I've also been drinking quite a lot tonight: again, a sign of significant emotions coming to the surface. I will allow the drinking tonight, as long as I don't allow myself to "forget" the feelings - which is why I'm posting this. I will phone Rape Crisis to see if they've any advice on what approach to take in this stage of my self-therapy. It all feels very ... big.

I'd like to thank those posters on the other thread, if they see this.

greenearrings · 17/08/2012 07:48

((((hugs)))) garlic.

achillea · 17/08/2012 08:17

I've only just seen this thread, very interesiting, particularly this bit

By withholding, he kept me in a permanent 'early dating' state, hoping he'd relax with me, until I was desperately craving that easy cuddle.

I remember his brother using the phrase "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen", it was passed to him by his uncle. I think this is a tactic that has been used by many men and which they have shared between each other in their exclusively male circles. It is a way to trap their partners, locking them up in a kind of Stockholm syndrome (as you mentioned earlier). If this happens at an early age and it works for them, why change it? Meanwhile their young partners haven't the slightest clue they are trapped.

Restart · 17/08/2012 15:52

Garlic, you are facing huge emotional demons, take it slowly and be kind to yourself every step of the way. I think the ultimate pain is in acknowledging that the people we've loved and trusted have abused and betrayed us; or let us down by simply standing by and watching us be abused. In fact the ones that stand by and allow it to happen are I suspect the most damaging, because they reenforce the view that it is somehow acceptable or deserved, and set our expectations for life. It's easy to appear saintly when in fact you are just standing doing nothing, like an icon. I think we avoid calling the abuse what it is because that is the admission of just how betrayed we were , we feel misplaced shame. When we acknowledge it, the pain must be dealt with. It takes a lot of work to get to the point where you can finally allow yourself to see things as they actually were. Our minds sometimes seem to block things that are too overwhelming. None of it was your fault Garlic, you were sent out in to the world with only a template for abuse to guide you. You are incredibly courageous and I'm sending you lots of ((((hugs))))) too xxx

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