Trial Separation or Fight to save marriage

[stumpy1969]

Hope it's OK for a man to post!! If not apologise.

Could do with advice. Wife and i have been married for 12 years and have two children 8 and 6.

As a family unit we get on fine and the kids are happy. have a good circle of friends, no money issues, nice home. No arguments in 6 months. Neither of is violent, gets drunk. However the intimacy in marriage has not been there for some years. I had a long conversation a couple of weeks ago where i said i did not want to stay in loveless marriage for sake of children as i could then just see us getting divorced when kids left home (and the temptation to have a one night stand or affair to be OK) - note nether of us (certainly not me wants one night stand / affair)

My wife said the spark had gone (ie not as career focussed, does not fancy me)

We agreed to have a trial separation (i rent somewhere, joint custody of children) for a period of 6 months to try and work things round

Whilst looking for somewhere to rent i have started running 5km a day (already lost half a stone, just another 3/4 stone to go before beer belly gone), eating healthier

However in the last three weeks when confiding in friends about our amicable separation we have discovered one friend has being having an affair for 3 months and has now left husband for good, another friend has had troubles in marriage for 2 years and last week kicked husband out.

I will be honest and say that i will do anything do save our marriage and get things back to how they were, I am concerened that maybe we to hasty in agreeing separation to save marriage. ie ie will be living in a rented house (which will not be a home) and therefore i am sure that will get me down. The agreed contact to try and reignite the flame is once a fortnight after first month apart for a date night. We will see each other on family afternoons with children but will not discuss issues in front of kids. I am struggling how i can attempt to reignite spark when that fortnightly contact is the time we are also discussing our issues. ie not the most romantic thing on a date to bring up anecdotes of how we have upset each other over the years

When wife was out last weekend she came back and mentioned that amongst our friends we seem to be "not too bad"

I was upset when my wife said she did not fancy me anymore but after doing a lot of readings om forums believe this is not uncommon. We make time as a family but not necessarily for each other.

So the question i need advice on at what stage is it best trying to work things out whilst still in family home and at what stage would a separation (trial) be best?

ie. if i can stay in home we can continue to decorate son's bedroom together, plan new kitchen.

By moving out i feel that it jsut makes it easier for separation to become permananent.

Lot of updates since last night and a lot of valid points and some invalid points.

carernotasaint - Have i moaned at my wife when spending money then over the years i have. (up until 7 months ago) I prefer spending what is in the bank rather than taking out lots of loans. Some people would say financial management i am sure there others who believe it is a type of abuse. (Both are probably valid statements). We appeared to agree on happy medium where my salary went on everyday expenses, wife and children's clothes, holidays. Wife's salary is put towards the "new kitchen", "loft conversion". Now maybe that happy medium was not so happy. As mentioned earlier when i was younger my father was made bankrupt and my mother cried everyday for months not knowing if we would be able to keep family home. Now its taken a long time for me to realise a lot of my money insecurity comes from childhood events and be able to move on.

spero/Greatauntirene - Shared parenting will be hard. Whilst we can afford to run two homes for a short period. After 6 months then we will need to come to a financial agreement/understanding as i will need to buy somewhere and i am a lot less flexible in terms of definite nights i can look after children (due to being away with work for a couple of nights every month)

She refuses to go to relate

With regards to might/might not separate. We are using a template from a book called "how to have a controlled separation" - this details the steps to have a trial separation (with an end date) which will automatically lead into a permanent separation once end date is reached

MissFaversam I don't mean to come across as creepy but appreciate the constructive criticism. Not used to writing (or saying) what i feel so maybe the words come out harsher/creepier than they are meant to. I could if i wanted behave like a right arse, refuse to move out of family home, put salary into a different acct. I know you keep thinking i followed my wife onto here but why would i want to do that it does not make sense. ie if she was a regular poster/contributor she would see this post and put her side of the story across. If i've stretched the truth or missed something out my wife will not hesitate to post a correction.

If at the end of 6 months one of us has decided the relationship has run its course then we separate hopefully on amicable terms and make sure the children come first and are not caught in the middle. That separation will have consequences (ie less holidays for the kids, wife maybe having to work 5 days per week rather than 4). I have read a lot of posts on this board in last three weeks before plucking up the courage to post. I have to agree the women posting deserve all the support and encouragement to leave their abusive partners (that might be financial/emotional or physical abuse). Now if my wife posted her point of view on this board then it may be completely different to what i have written and she would get the sympathy she might deserve, There is no definitive guide to how to break up/separate and my wife and i are making this up as we go along. Hopefully in 5 years she will be happy and i will be happy and we can have a laugh at how we went about all of this.

stumpy. I think your situation is very common and that lots of couples go through this type of thing.. Have you tried Relate or other marriage guidance. ( sorry if you have already answered this). Would it be possible to have a sort of trial separation but stay in the house. Ie have separate bedrooms, setup a second living room for yourself?? I would be concerned that it would be difficult to build bridges if you leave the family home. Also, it is not a nice situation for the children. They might find the uncertainty upsetting.

Spend the money you would have spent on renting a house on babysitters and going out with your wife. Just simple 'light' things such as the cinema, playing sport or whatever. Perhaps, avoid dinners out on your own as the discussions could get too heavy. Also perhaps you can arrange a few weekends away apart from each other, you can go and visit relatives or whatever. It will give her some space and will give you something to chat about.

Hope it goes well.

Ps, I really really wouldn't bother replying to unpleasant posters. They like it and it only encourages them.

Think she sees me as a friend rather than lover. She has said if she met me now rather than 10 years ago she would not give me a 2nd look
When do you think the rot set in or has it been gradual Rot has set in during last 4 years. partly due to me not want to spend money as i was saving for a rainy day so she was constantly having to nag me to spend on big things. In last 8 months i have not refused her any expenditure and i hoped that would sort things out.

Im sorry but youve contradicted yourself here. Today you have said that you prefer to spend the money in the bank rather than get out loans.
But thats not what youve said in this section which ive copied over from yesterday.
So she was having to nag you to spend on big things but then you say you would rather spend whats in the bank. This doesnt correlate with what you said yesterday.
"in the past 8 months i havent refused her any expenditure" But you did refuse for years and years before that so maybe in her eyes its too little too late.

This is like CSI mumsnet!

You sound a decent responsible guy. She sounds bored and resentful.

Sometimes things just come to an end.

Not sure a trial sep sounds like its a good option for you and as its something she's pushed it seems like she's having a trial run at being a single mum and hedging her bets.

Sorry.

I am just at her attitude. I would have been v stressed at the thought of splitting from my DH because of the drop in earnings (he earned 5 times my salary) and how would I manage childcare with 3 DCs and hold down a full time job? He had v demanding job and worked away alot so not there regularly to childmind. Unless she has family nearby who can step in (I had none). Don't think I could have just arranged an easy osey split like this with so much at stake.

However had I been forced into that position I would certainly have survived, but just had alot of stress too.

carernotasaint - what i meant by saving for rainy day was the "big" purchases to be paid for out of savings. I don't mean continually saving for ever. ie up to 8 months ago big spends came out of savings. You are right i did refuse for years to take out loans so you are right it may be a little too late. So if we wanted new windows then if the money saved was there we would get new windows if the money was not there we would wait until we had saved enough. I can't defend my stance on not taking on debt but also i don't think i am unusual. One of those situations where i was too tight and wife was the other way.

LeanderBear Yes i have mentioned relate and mentioned attempting to live separate lives for a while in house before trial separation. To no avail. The £6k being spent on renting could go a long way towards potentially putting the eldest through private secondary school/having a holiday of a lifetime if things work out. However i am concious i could across as attempting to "salvage" the marriage by throwing money at the problem.
I have mentioned that attempting to rekindle flame will be harder when living in different houses. ie will me or wife be more stressed because on certain days we are attempting to look after both kids, iron after them, feed them, play with them, bath them etc rather than divide that labour?

Greatauntirene
My wife is stressed at moment. She's taken a number of days off in the last three weeks. i suspect she is worried about standard of living dropping. However she does have a well paid part time job which she can up to full time. She has no family near but we have a strong network of friends who can help with childcare. We will both survive this no matter what the outcome.
However one thing i will be pointing out to wife is family days out are not going to happen every week (may occur for first couple of months but after then unfortunately when the kids are with me they willl be spending quality time with me.

Losingitall - Not sure about the bored bit. She got a lot of activities that keep her busy. However some of the reading i have done suggests she has thrown herself into those activities to be away from me . I do like the reference to CSI Mumsnet - made me smile for first time today

My wife is not still with me for last few years just because i earn a nice wage. She is also too intelligent to stay with me if we attempt to solve everything by spending money. If the emotional/physical attraction has gone and cannot come back then its gone and we will have to move on.

One moment i am thinking we are going through the motions of a trial separation when deep down it will be permanent. The next day she will tell me how she "found a bracelet she got for her birthday 3 months ago from a girlfriend that she hated at the time (the bracelet not the girlfriend). When she found out she had lost it she realised how much much she actually liked it..."

Just wondering what the relevance of this anecdote is? How is her misplacing a bracelet any reflection on your marriage?

The only thing I can think is that part of you suspects this bracelet isn't a late birthday present from a friend but rather a gift from a lover? Are you trying to hint she's having an affair?

Incidentally, the reason people tend to have less patience with posts like this is because while there have been plenty of male posters genuinely looking for help and advice with their marriage, there are also a quotient of dickheads who get a kick out of getting other women to slag their wife off.

and at HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Incidentally, the reason people tend to have less patience with posts like this is because while there have been plenty of male posters genuinely looking for help and advice with their marriage, there are also a quotient of dickheads who get a kick out of getting other women to slag their wife off.. Nothing like a fair trial then......

           " <span class="italic">Tarred and feathered and carried in a cart</span>
       <span class="italic">by the women of</span> <span class="line-through">Marblehead</span>  <span class="italic">Mumsnet</span> "

Read more carefully, Leander.

I didn't say the OP is one of the dickheads, I was just warning him that there are lots of them and they make many posters cautious as a result.

I see what you mean, sorry I didn't mean to suggest you thought he
was a %*#^head. I should have said I was and at those prejudiced posters and not at you.

Sorry. Grovelly

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Re bracelot anecdote. I know she got it from a group of girlfriends as i was there when she unwrapped it. I do not believe she is/was having an affair and sorry if some people took me that was what i was hinting. What i was trying to show is that at the time she received the present she said to me privately afterwards that she hated it and was not to her taste. A couple of weeks later she thought she had lost it and we searched house and could not find. She then found and stated that even though she hated it a month or so ago it had grown back on her and she really liked it. This was when we had agreed to the trial. What i was trying to get at was the day before i thought there was no way we would reconcile. But after hearing that story confused me with regards to her possibly not hating me as much as she had stated.

What i have attempted to do in this discussion is not allow anyone to slag off my wife. To me that would be pointless and would not help my situation at this point at all.

The two of us have got to this position through one reason or another.

OK stumpy thats a bit clearer but when i asked earlier upthread about how a trivial item to you might be an essential item to her,i actually meant smaller items. For instance a couple of weeks ago there was a thread on here where the OPs DH flipped out about her wanting to buy bathroom cleaner saying "how much is THAT going to cost now"

Ive seen many similar threads on here and thats why my hackles rise sometimes. Im NOT saying you are like this though.

This is what i mean by threads ive seen in the past. Though i do understand the thread in this link is about an extreme situation.

forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=2690837&highlight=is+this+miserly+or+just+moneysaving

How sad. This does look like the end of your marriage, Stumpy.
Best of luck for the future.

Have you moved out?

If it is over, as a man who has gone through something similar (and seen others) don't move out until finances and child arrangements are sorted, or you could find yourself marginalised.

Huansagain

No i have not moved out yet. About to place deposit down for house to move into a week on Friday

After reading posts over last couple of days i believe i have been hoping the trial separation would allow breathing space. I am coming to the conclusion that my wife has already decided (as in trial leads to permanent). Currently the plan was for the cost of running two homes was to come out of both salaries AND childcare arrangements have been agreed (me Monday and Tues, wife Wed and Thurs and alternate long weekends).

Now that its dawning on me that the marriage is over i am stressing on what happens in 6 months. Do we sell family home to allow me to release equity to put a deposit down on a house that i can make a home (and wife buys a smaller place) or does my wife decide that she wants the family home (with me having a charge on it until kids finish school/university). If its the 2nd option then that leaves me having to rent for years as i will not be able to save a deposit to buy somewhere.

Now i know this opens a whole new topic of what is fair and not fair in dividing assets which i don't think my head is up for at the moment. The whole thing is a nightmare.

carernotasaint - I think a number of years ago i may have moaned about going to restaurant as a family on occasion as well as other "trivial" things. The last moan i can remember making was this time last year when we were on holiday looking for a restaurant to eat in. I remember there was one restaurant where the cost was going to be about 30 euros and the wife ended up wanting restaurant round corner for 50 euros and i kicked up a fuss about that.

I think my attitude over money over the years has clouded the change i have made consciously in last 9 months.

I think most people are correct in saying that marriage is over and it its time to move on. Hard to contemplate at moment. But there is no point the adults being unhappy in a relationship as that will more likely affect the children long term more than us both moving on, adjusting and hopefully working together to bring kids up together (even though we are living apart)

Now i need to find a support network for single fathers (my mates are next to useless - they just see the rented home to be a place where they can come round and watch films every other weekend)

I would strongly recommend going to see a solicitor who specialises in family law before you move out. They will be able to give you some idea how the assets are likely to be split between you if you divorce. It isn't a question of your wife deciding she wants the family home. It may be that she does get to keep the family home but it isn't automatic just because that is what she wants. And they may advise you that it is in your best interests to stay put, although you then have to consider whether or not you can take that advice given that your wife clearly wants you to move out.

Who would end up being the primary carer for the children? Usually it ends up with the children living most of the week with one parent and visiting the other.

the first consderation for the court is the welfare of the children. Therefore, if family finances will only stretch to one property, the parent will primary care will live in it, but as you say, there can be a charge on the property in favour of the other parent which will be triggered when the children reach 18 or finish full time education.

But the court is also anxious to see that both parents have a stable home, if there is enough money to go round.

The usual scenario I see in medium asset cases (i.e. enough to maintain a mortgage on one property and rent another)is that (usually) mother and children stay in former matriomonial home with charge to father. However, it is getting increasingly common that the matrimonial home has to be sold as its not possible to pay rent and a mortgage.

What is a no brainer is that the standard of living for both usually slips quite a lot on divorce, unless both of you are in high paid jobs.

This must be very stressful for you. I think it does sound as if she isn't genuinely interested in a 'trial separation' and I think this is unfair to you. There will be a lot to sort out and I wonder if she has really thought it through. It will be a big impact on both your lives to separate, as the children are so young child care is a big issue if she has to work full time.

You say she refuses to go to Relate. Maybe suggest that she go to mediation with you with a view to talking about finances, both during the separation and after if 'trial' turns out to be permanent.

How sad i am now to read all of the above.
My wife is moving out shortly for us to be apart.
sounds like we're doomed never to get back together as I hoped we would one day. Is there any good news

I'm sorry that you have had a bit of a rough ride on this thread, but I am more sorry for your situation.

May I say, that men are welcome on MN, and that posters who do not welcome the, are few and far between. There is no reason at all why you should not continue to use MN as a support, it is a site by parents, for parents (but actually by people and for people - there are plenty of posters here who are not parents). If you would prefer to leave MN, please don't go to that well known dads' site with the number in the name though

24 years of marriage; two teenagers and we argue all the time; crux of the problem is his obsession with his mother; seriously considering separation for at least 6 months; more than once have considered throwing in the towel; just want some peace and to be able to live without having his mother rammed down my throat; both my parents have passed and so has his dad..........what to do what to do