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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

ex SIL preventing nieces from attending special family events

96 replies

OneArmedBandit · 16/07/2012 12:52

my sil and i were close for years.

she and db are going through a messy divorce.

she is refusing to allow their 3 children to attend family gatherings that don't fall on his 'access' days (every other weekend). this access has been dictated by her alone. he used to have them weds nights too but she suddenly decided he wasnt allowed to have them midweek any more.

our other brother is marrying in august and they are bridesmaids.... it got to the point of having to threaten legal action before she allowed them to attend.

now their only surviving grandfather is visiting form overseas at 2 days' notice as a surprise for my 40th (am annoyed with my dad for not giving us notice but he didnt think through the consequences for my db). she has refused to let them see him as she says they have plans, and it not dbs' 'weekend'. you might say fair enough, but how sad that sil sees no value in altering plans to accommodate a rare overseas relative.

she also will allow him to have them only for 10 days over the summer, split into 2x 5 days so he cant do a proper holiday with them.

i dont understand why she hates us all so much. we used to regularly go on holidays etc together and i've really tried to be impartial. why cant she see that keeping the dc away from our side of the family out of spite, is not in the dc's interest. she admitted in a recent email to Db that money was his 'power base' but the dc our her 'power base'. i just want to weep its so awful and hurtful.

when he sees them only 2 days out of 14 it makes it impossible to get to see our side of the family. they have a gran and a great gran who see them about 1% of the time that her own family get to see them. not to metion my poor db who misses them like mad.

i really know the dc and db are the main issue but the extended family get hurt too and i needed to vent Sad. any advice?

OP posts:
ivykaty44 · 17/07/2012 22:17

TBH the easiest thing to do is take the wind out of her sails - organise stuff for family on the weekends that your db has the dc.

If something falls on another weekend etc - then just suck it up.

The attention she is getting from saying no is incredible - take the attention away.

It used to niggle me when ex used to want the dc when it suited him - but do you know in 14 year he has never phoned up and said - do our children need picking up from anywhere this week, after school club, swimming lessons, karate practice etc. Not once has he ever thought that the mundane lift would be of help and the thought of a time with his dc in the car.

I think they don't think about parenting on a daily basis when they don't live with their dc - doesn't mean they don't love them, they do.

You do a lot of juggling as a single mum and if a dad comes across as a disney dad it doesn't help relationships

Houseofplain · 17/07/2012 22:19

But you haven't, you have NO idea what is going on behind closed doors with both of them. You do have a very bolshy attitude. I'm not surprised she's smarting with you. I guess the comment which started all this off between you and her, was equally as un pleasant. I do not know if that's your intention, but that is how you come across.

I get the impression all this animosity has stemmed from a comment you made to her. Which probably felt like a hammer blow, if you'd been playing the supportive shoulder role. How harsh was this comment? As it upset her enough to write you a curt email and cut contact with you. Then this thread. That's the crux of it isn't it?

OneArmedBandit · 17/07/2012 22:20

but ivy, he really wants midweek involvement and is going for joint custody. i dont mean to be rude but this is just the sort of knee jerk post that people are making on this thread based on posters' own baggage/ situations with an ex rather than really reading the details of the thread/op.

OP posts:
OneArmedBandit · 17/07/2012 22:22

ivy, to clarify, i was referring to the second half of your post.

OP posts:
akaemmafrost · 17/07/2012 22:25

And yet almost everyone with similar experiences is saying the same thing.

Tbh "baggage" is just another word for experience isn't it? And that's why you posted isn't it? To hear others experiences and get advice arising from them.

ivykaty44 · 17/07/2012 22:27

and has your db ever phoned up on a Monday and said

do the dc need a lift anywhere this week - can I help out at all?

or is it the midweek visit he has asked for?

OneArmedBandit · 17/07/2012 22:30

yes emma, but i hadnt realised the 'experiences' of other posters would make them so selective in how they interpret my OP eg the wedding issue that still only only person has commented on! what i realise now is that i am tapping into a whole lot of bitterness and stereotyping of men. i wasnt expected that degree of bias, tbh.

OP posts:
ivykaty44 · 17/07/2012 22:38

possibly our experiances are selective as we see them from a different point of view to yourself, we are trying to share that point of view to try to help you understand the other side of the situation.

akaemmafrost · 17/07/2012 22:42

I think you just want everyone to agree with you. You are painting a very black picture of your SIL and she probably feels she is being ganged up on by your family.

Quite frankly she owes you and your DB and your family nothing now. Sorry but it's true. She shares children with your DB and courtesy would be nice but it's not compulsory. I think you and your family want Your Own Way and are angry because she won't give it to you.

OneArmedBandit · 17/07/2012 22:43

ok.... i have said too much.

have asked for thread to be deleted.

in the meantime could i respectfully ask people to stop posting so that the thread falls off the active convos?

thank you and good luck to you all

OP posts:
perfectstorm · 17/07/2012 22:47

A friend is in your DB's situation. That friend is a woman - she is not primary carer. It's sheer hell for her, and I do feel for you, but the bottom line is that she has realised she just has to accept bad behaviour from her ex with grace, because every bit of anger or brinksmanship ups the ante and harms her daughter. So she doesn't ask for contact outside agreed occasions, and avoids telling her ex when something special is planned so it can't be sabotaged, and tries to comply with every stupid demand

The best advice, sadly, is not to seek legal help unless contact is actually blocked. If he is getting every other weekend then the best thing he can do is ask her to go to mediation with a view to making the relationship more amicable for the sake of the children, and to getting a consent order rubberstamped after the negotiations to make bloody sure he keeps his weekends, or she's in contempt of court. And if they talk in a more reasonable way, face to face (he has GOT to keep his temper) she may agree to the midweeks being reinstated. You don't know. If she doesn't, he doesn't have to go for the consent order but it is worth another try. (Why didn't they get one last time they mediated, as part of the divorce agreement?)

This is normal, a lot of the time. People with kids usually stay together until things become really unbearable and after the split they start to demonise one another in one another's minds.

Maybe you could email her and just say how fond you always were of her, how much you miss her (mention a few positive, non-linked-to-drama events) and how sad you are that things are getting so polarised. That she is always someone you'll see as family and if there is ever any way you can help she can always get in touch.

Basically fair or not, his contact with his kids will largely be down to goodwill unless you litigate. Litigation will guarantee they hate one another permanently, and will scar the kids badly - possibly, even probably, for life. If there is any way he can bite his tongue, not ever argue, just suck whatever up and placate, appease and accept, then there is a chance things will calm down and she will be more reasonable. That is screamingly unfair, but the thing is, she is the resident parent. Anything you ever so that upsets, angers or challenges her will affect the kids badly. That is not fair, but it's the case. The conflict and her anger will probably mean they get upset after contact, which she will interpret as contact being what has upset them, so she will want to limit it. If she relaxes because she is feeling less threatened and encroached upon, she will probably be less hostile in future - apart from anything else, it means more freedom for her, too. If she carries on incrementally limiting contact then litigation is the only way but I can't stress enough how toxic that will be to the kids. If he is getting every other weekend that is horrendous for a parent, I agree, but I very much doubt he's likely to get enough more from a court to justify the trauma (and cost. It will be thousands, and public funding is really, really limited now). High conflict residence cases are judgement of Solomon territory and there are no guarantees at all that he'll get any more time. If he is reliably getting every other weekend and she doesn't cancel regularly for no reason then she is not really seen as obdurate. The courts see implacably hostile mothers who barely allow contact at all, or who refuse point blank. And some solicitors are aggressive because it earns them more money, bluntly. I can recommend one who specialises in high conflict contact and residence disputes who dials down the drama at all times - a former CAFCASS officer I know recommended her to me for my friend when the need became inescapable, and she has been phenomenally good. She's top rated in Chambers and Partners for a reason. This is a molehill that could so easily be converted into a mountain - if he wants a good relationship with stable, happy kids, then whether they see their GD on a single occasion is something he MUST let go. It is not worth the long term cost.

Taking kids out of school without the other party's sayso is aggressive. Sorry, but it is. He needs to back off or he is going to wind her up more. The brutal fact is that this is not about who is right, or being fair, or "wins". It is about what is best for the kids. He needs to turn the other cheek, rise above it, suck it up and cope or he WILL see less of them. I know that's horrible but it's the truth. The other truth is that this is a game of tennis and each escalates it every time. He needs to disengage, at least for 6 months or so.

I think it's totally fair to want kids back by 5 on Sunday, by the way. They need to unwind and relax and prepare for the week ahead at school, and they need to settle back into their home. The travelling is a PITA and I sympathise, but it's not their doing and the fact is, that is a reasonable expectation. (They are collected from school on the Friday though, right?)

Again, this isn't about fairness or what's right or justice. It's about the best interests of two kids who have parents who appear on a collision course. Frankly, if more parents stopped worrying about their rights or their pride or what was fair and accepted that their nightmare ex just needs to be pandered to for the next however many years, then fewer kids would suffer. Because I do suspect that both sides see the other as monstrously unreasonable, and they have probably convinced their own sides of the same.

I'm really sorry. This must be awful for you, as well as the four of them.

perfectstorm · 17/07/2012 22:49

Crap, sorry. X post. Good luck to you and your family, whatever happens. It's so hard.

GrasshopperNchipmunk · 17/07/2012 22:51

In your OP you asked for advice.

My advice is to take a massive step back and stop being so 'involved'. Try and think more clearly from both sides, and try to see the bigger picture here. At the moment you seem involved to the point that is clouding your judgement about what is and isn't reasonable to expect.

You haven't provided much information about why she didn't want the children to attend the wedding? (sorry of I missed it) Was it something that she had agreed and went back on?

I agree with the others who have said that at the moment things are very fraught, but in time, hopefully things will work themselves out and settled down after a divorce and agreements are properly in place.

bananaistheanswer · 17/07/2012 23:01

OP the wedding issue isn't pleasant for anyone, not least your DB who wanted the kids to be involved etc. But. What else did the 'family' do to make the involvement of your DNs in the wedding, a possibility? Did anyone call the ex SIL other than your DB? Was the ex SIL asked if the kids could be involved, or was the decision made via your DB alone? How was it put to the ex SIL about having the kids involved, while knowing that she was clearly not going to be invited or involved? Did anyone actually think how hurtful it was for her to consider that there was a family event that she would previously have been involved with, where her kids were going to be centre of attention, and she was definitely not going to be a part of it? How have the rest of your family responded to the split? Has anyone kept in touch, or has she been cut off completely?

I agree it's not pleasant to hear your ex SIL has refused to allow your DNs to be part of a family wedding, but I suspect that not a lot of thought has been put into how this was approached. You can dismiss the actions of your ex SIL as being mean, bitter, spiteful etc. if that makes things easier for you. But, either you want to move on from the animosity, or you don't. If you want to maintain your involvement in your DN's lives outwith the time your DB currently sees the kids, then that involves you not sitting in judgement of your ex SIL, and doing something about maintaining contact/a relationship with her. If you are so offended by her behaviour that you cannot do that, then you have to accept that whatever relationship you had with your DNs previously, you won't have that going forward, ditto your own kids relationship with her. I personally think it's sad that you seem to have made that choice already, while placing all responsibility for that on your SIL. You could at least be honest and acknowledge that you have backed off from her, and changed the dynamic of your relationship, and accept that will have consequences on your relationship with your DNs outwith their time with their dad, and also your kids relationship with her.

Houseofplain · 18/07/2012 09:46

Fwiw. I'm not bitter and I have no issues with men. I'm married and have no access problems.

Just pointing out you've got one side of the story here. That also your attitude seems very, how can I put it forceful. Like you have to get your own way. It's also sounding like you are way too involved. Which could explain the reason she is closing off.

Not to mention, this all started with a comment you made to her, that was harsh enough for her to cut contact. You say about not answering questions. Well you never answerd exactly how harsh that was, as she deemed it bad enough to cut contact. Also you never answered the question about the dc's schooling. As 5k for a shock factor, is nothing if the dc's are in pe. You don't have to of course, but it suggests and agenda.

Would those questions paint you and your db, in to bad a light? It seems this thread was designed solely to rip into your sil, since you've fallen out, due to your comment. We're you hoping she posted here? You've given just enough I for for her to recognise herself....

Now you've chucked your toys out of the pram as people are giving you a balanced perspective and not egging on the slagging off of your sil. Best deleted all round.

claraschu · 18/07/2012 10:15

You seem completely reasonable to me. I think some people are being very unpleasant, and I would be upset if I were you.The real issue here is how little access he has, which his ex seems to have dictated.Why is this arrangement assumed to be in the best interest of the children?

akaemmafrost · 18/07/2012 10:24

Where have people been "unpleasant" Confused? They just haven't agreed with her.

Fwiw the op asked that people stop posting on here so it drops out of Active Convos.

DontmindifIdo · 18/07/2012 10:59

I've asked a couple of times, could the grandfather's flights be changed to stay a little longer and still be here for your DB's weekend with the DCs the weekend after? Probably cheaper than solicitor fees....

Lora1982 · 18/07/2012 11:16

my sil was saying my niece couldnt come on holday with my brother and the rest of the family. a lawyer type told us if it went to court they would see that the child is being deprived and that sil was being unreasonable then side with letting her go.

DialsMavis · 18/07/2012 12:05

I agree there are 2 sides to every story, but I think you sound very fair and reasonable. I would change my plans for DS to see a grandparent or go to a family gathering and I often don't even get the £170 per month that is meant to come from my awful ex. That is not DS or ex inlaws fault, and they are as much DS's family as my side are.

perfectstorm · 18/07/2012 13:10

I'm struggling to see how anyone could think refusing to shift a weekend to accommodate a visit with a grandparent who lives overseas is reasonable, any more than the wedding denial was. Both of those are clear instances of the mother wanting to hurt the father, and not giving a stuff about the needs of her kids. Sorry, there is no way her own hurt about not being a member of that family any more should or can justify those actions. She's in the wrong on those two cases, regardless. BUT... it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. What matters is that conflict will damage the kids, and the aggressive stance he is taking - treating it as a battle, upping the ante - will just make everything more polarised, more angry and more entrenched. If he wants to be a positive in their lives, when their mother and he are at daggers drawn, he has to find a way to calm it all and stop hitting back. His kids are the ones in the line of fire.

Fairness doesn't matter when the people in the middle are those two girls. And the worse this gets, the more upset they'll be, and then the more sure their mother that the upset is caused by contact and not the hostility between the parents, so she reduces contact. Rinse, repeat. It's a well known pattern. The way for this to improve is for everyone to stop thinking about who is "right" and what is "fair" and to start thinking about how to manage the conflicted situation and the breakdown in trust, so that no more damage is done to those kids. This is not about adult needs, feelings or rights. It's about somehow managing to adopt a conciliatory approach, whatever the provocation, so the children's needs, feelings and rights are met.

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