My friend has got herself in a bit of a mess (sorry, little bit long)

[GiveMeStrength2day]

I'm posting this about a friend (with her knowledge). I'll try and include as much info as possible whilst omitting identifiable details.

Her 'D'P has anger management issues. He finds fault with everything she does - she can't do anything right in his eyes. They have one DC and my friend is (at his insistence) at SAHM. P insists everything is cooked from scratch and that dinner is on the table at the same time every night and if, for any reason, that doesn't happen he goes ballistic. He also has OCD tendencies with regard to house-cleaning (not that he actually does any cleaning!). He will verbally lay into my friend for the slightest thing. For example, he came across a (small toy belonging to the DC one day and because he didn't recognise it (it was a cheap thing that my friend had bought a while back) he shouted at her and said that she was a devious cow and that sort of thing. Another time the DC took a tumble in the garden - my friend was indoors and her P was in the garden and yet she was shouted at that it was her fault!! I could go on!

The P is also seriously obsessive about their bank account. He expects my friend to manage the finances (ok ordinarily fair enough) but also insists that they maintain a balance of £x thousands in a savings account. This is completely unfeasible/unrealistic given they have one (not fantastic) wage coming in. The savings account has dwindled down and down (to top up his wages) that when the day came and he asked how much was in there my friend panicked and lied. Then she did something really silly, she used an interest-free credit card and did a money transfer to top up the savings account! £thousands. She now makes minimum repayments using the weekly "pocket money" he allows her (meant for buying herself clothes and suchlike). She has offered (obviously not saying why) to get an evening supermarket job but the P said he was not prepared to commit to putting the DC to bed every evening!

She can't carry on like this - she is a nervous wreck. She is terrified of telling him and I can understand why. She's not sure if he would hit her (that hasn't been his MO up til now - just emotional bullying).

I hope I've explained this properly - it's hard to try and keep it brief. My advice to her is ultimately to leave him. The money is a red herring as his behaviour is vile now and he doesn't even know about the debt. There is equity in their house so they could sell it and she'll have to get herself a local job in order to get herself and the DC a little place. I've also suggested she speak to someone like Womens Aid.

Please let me have your thoughts. I'm happy to clarify anything I've missed.

From what was posted earlier, there is £10K debt on the card, and only £3K left in savings. Even emptying savings will leave £7K debt on the card :(

What Clam said. The fact he's demanding access to the account means he's on to her - and given that he's kept her on a tight financial leash and made impossible demands on her budget, he's probably deliberately set her up to fail. Because he's abusive.

Pay off the debt NOW, while it's still possible. If she doesn't do this and the marriage ends on Friday, she could be left with debts which were accrued as a result of joint household spending. If the marriage survives, they're going to have to use the savings to pay off the debt anyway. So just do it.

Short term? Whatever she does he'll go ballistic. So how will his reaction be different to any other day? If she's a nervous wreck ask her to consider what's the worst that can happen? If she thinks she's at physical risk, WA can arrange an immediate escape. If he's just going to rant and rave, that's just a normal weekend by the sound of it.

Medium term? Leave. Do it for the daughter's sake as she's already been dragged into this.

And tell her to join Mumsnet and come chat to us here.

for being a good friend.

Please encourage her to leave before Friday and to have used the savings to pay off as much of the card as possible. The level of fear around him suggests that she suspects he may become violent as well as abusive.

She didn't 'get herself into a bit of a mess' even if she puts it like that, she did her best to survive in an abusive situation. No one who is reasonable would blame her for that debt. Hopefully it can get sorted out at the same time as the mortgage equity in the legal settlement, if not at least she'll be able to work to pay it off as she had planned to do. There was always a time-limit on how long she could keep their financial situation from him, their outgoings are bigger than their incomings. Its not her fault.

At the very least she shouldn't be alone when they have this conversation. But please let her know that you think she and her daughter will be safer if they come and stay with you and you can help her get the advice she needs from women's organisations, solicitors, CAB, whoever can help.

is she married?
I hope she is from the POV of that debt - although it's in her name, if they're married, she can have half of the money of the house (hopefully- if it's in joint names, this will be easier - if it's in his name then she'll have to fight for it), and can pay off the debt with that.
if they are married, she could get her solicitor to strike a deal about the debt and get him to pay half, given the circumstances.

it gets a lot messier if they aren't married, from that point of view, but at least it'll be easier for her to leave.

As another poster has said if she only has £3k that leaves a £7k debt however, she can contact the credit card company and try to reach an arrangement with them, though I think this could cause problems for her credit rating.

Even with all that she MUST leave. Tell her to empty the account and GO!

There is help available and you sound a tremendous support. Nothing is worth staying. She is not living, she is existing on a diet of fear and abuse and she won't survive like that forever, nobody can.

She thinks she's not strong enough but we never know how strong we are until we have to be.

She owes it to herself, not just her daughter. This man won't change.

Thank you ALL

I do pretty much agree that "the conversation" is probably not a great idea. But should she just pack up and leave a Dear John?

Spirited - When she first told me about the situation, I think she phrased it "got in a bit of a pickle". But, no, she didn't get herself into it, she did what she thought best whilst in a panic.

Apologies, just remembered there is now (I think) approximately £6k in the account as the P has received a VERY recent tax rebate. When he interrogated her re the balance at the weekend she told him it was £9k (of course, there is still the 10k debt) and he went ballistic at that! For goodness sake, how can any single-income not massively well-paid household maintain a savings account with a balance of £12k?? Which is what he is expecting. Cloud cuckooland. Could she get into trouble for clearing the account out to pay the debt?

Not heard back from WomensAid yet - I will try again in the morning. I've told my friend I've updated this thread and urged her to read your (much appreciated) support and advice. I've also suggested she keeps a diary of sorts of the (MANY) incidents for any future reference

nickel - they aren't married but I think the house is in joint names. There is a fair amount of equity in the house (against mortgage owed)

she definitely needs to pay off the credit card.
and quickly.
from that account.
and leave this week.

No she won't get in trouble withdrawing money from a joint account (I don't think!)

Tell her to clear the savings and pay that card. £1k is very manageable!

Re: the house. She is entitled to half that equity so financially she will be ok though it could take some sorting. She needs to speak to a solicitor ASAP.

Totally agree with DreamingofSummer. Not ifs and ands or buts. Leave. I don't usually say this by the way!

Poor woman.
I agree she should leave - it's not safe for her or her daughter.
She can explain after leaving, when she's in a safe place, that she panicked due to his behaviour and took put the credit card. The records will show she only ever spent the money on their joint outgoings. I do agree that she needs to pay off the credit card as she's moved their joint debt into her sole name. If the savings account is a current account, with an overdraft facility, is it worth over drawing the account, to pay back the card? That will still be a debt, but it will be a joint debt again, no longer just in her name. Just a thought - definitely speak to WA / CAB / solicitor whilst he's away this week.

Yeah, take the money if it's a joint account and pay the card. Perhaps transfer the last 1k to somewhere low interest or a 0% interest credit card.

Then leave.

Yes an overdraft! Good plan Cabrinha.

She won't get into trouble at all for withdrawing money from a joint account. Read the many relationship threads were ex's leave their wives & kids withdrawing every penny from joint accounts and even maxing out the overdraft limit.

Tell her to do it & pay off every penny of the credit card.

Also tell her to take all the credit card statements with her along with copies of statements to the savings account to provide a paper trail showing where she put the money ie from credit card to savings account then from savings back to credit card.

She needs to get the hell away from this man.

I read it that she told him it was 9k but was actually 6k so leaves 4k to find?

Anyhow I agree its a scary situation and really she has to leave.

that is a good plan, Cabrinha,
She does need to talk to the bank manager about this - ask for an urgent appointment and explain to him/her what's happening and what she needs to do to clear the debt on the card and to put the debt into their joint name.

On a normal joint account, either person can do any transaction on the account, including overdrafts, so she doesn't need to worry about joint permission (and the overdraft will have better interest than a CC)

(don't forget that any conversation with a bank manager can be counted as a paper trail)

Just trying to clarify the money:

He WANTS £12k in the bank account
She borrowed £10k on credit card to keep bank account topped up (albeit still not the balance he wanted but he didn't know that)
The money in bank account (due to life/bills etc) dwindled to £3k
The current balance in bank account is £6k (due to £3k tax rebate)
He THINKS the balance is £9k

I think/hope I've got that right

I had initially suggested she speaks to her building society to see if the debt could be put on their mortgage but I think as the P's behaviour has worsened and the relationship will end, that suggestion is now redundant.

I also think I'm right in saying that the bank account is just a current account (ie. not actually a savings account or ISA, ie. something that would "work" for them) which in itself is madness (again, that's him not her)

What do people think re her departure? Should she use the next few days to get her essentials out of the house and then leave a note for him to find when he gets home on Friday? The note explaining why she's leaving and also the money bit? That's where my advice-giving falters.

If the mortgage is under joint names then the mortgagees will not increase it without written consent form BOTH signatories.

She needs to withdraw every last penny from the savings account and money from the current account put it in overdraft if needs be, pay it off and leave, all at the same time. She needs to stop procrastinating as right now she has the upper hand with the element of surprise when she loses that a £10k debt will be just one of her problems.

She needs to get herself and her child to safety.

Yes she needs to prepare and leave before he gets back. She must take all important documents (passports, birth certificates etc).

Tell her to empty that account and yes, use the overdraft. Pay off the credit card as much as she can.

Keep trying Womens Aid. Get to a solicitor re the house. Find somewhere to stay.

I think she needs to listen to her gut instinct, which is to be afraid of him. We can put ourselves in dangerous situations when we ignore our gut feelings. She should leave before Friday and leave him a note. Does he know where you live? If so then I wouldn't recommend she go to yours. Women's Aid have a financial advice service your friend can be referred to. Many women leave abusive relationships with mountains of debt, it can all be sorted out. Getting away safely is the thing to focus on for now. I know he hasn't been physically violent before but your friend is scared of him and she is in an abusive relationship. Violence often starts when a relationship is breaking down so it's safest for her to avoid any face to face contact or confrontation. It can be very hard to get through to the national WA line. Google your county and domestic abuse to see if you have a local service in your area.

I suggested adding the debt to the mortgage when my friend thought she might be able to "manage" her P's response if she presented him with all the facts. Ie. "this is what I've done but this is how it can be remedied" (to paraphrase). Clearly things have gone way past this now and it won't end well.

He did come to my house a couple of years ago when he accompanied my friend and her DD to my DD's birthday party. Where he just sat there like a spare one - I do remember wondering at the time was he checking up on her as his presence was "inappropriate" really. I'm not sure if he'd remember my address or if he would actually connect me with her leaving him. Not really sure she'd have too many options to go to and I don't think she'd cope in a hostel-type environment.

I think given his appalling, aggressive behaviour towards her it would be fair to imagine violence would not be too far away.

I've just found a local WA branch so I will give them a try in the morning.

i would suggest she aims to leave before Friday - just to be on the safe side. Can she leave all her important things with you? All the documents, photocopies of any important things she cannot take with her. Also -just to be on the safe side , I would scan her computer and clear her history , just in case. She has such amazing advice here and such amazing support from you. But she needs to just get out - forget the Dear John letters, apologies , because this could cause more problems. Keep , keep trying WA - if not could you possibly contact the police and ask to speak to their DV officer? I know theres not violence yet, but your right it does not sound like its too far away, and they may be able to get support asap.

Shouldn't she look for legal advice before leaving so hastily?
Thank God she has you as a friend.
I hope she finds the strength to stand up to this abusive individual (the word man doesn't really apply in this case) or to leave.

Sweet Lord I don't think a thread has every worried/scared me this much.

In agreement with above it sounds as though he has set her up to fail and has been waiting for this situation to happen so he will have an 'excuse' to make any actions her fault.

And it's sounds as though he's ground her down enough that she will see it as her own fault if you see what I mean.

oPs friend, I tend to do all the grocery shopping due to OHs shift pattern, went shopping with OH last weekend, spent £50, so easy these days, OH commented what the hell did you buy? In a shocked rather than accusing tone. Explained to him how much food had gone up recently (btw we don't really do going out, prefer to have good food at home)

He said he'd noticed how the balance on the account was going down a bit quicker, BUT assumed I had good reason. Never thought to question me about it and would have got short shrift if he had. That is normal, not being so scared that you take you a HUGE loan.

Please OPs friend get now now. Please.

How's your friend today op? Feeling stronger I hope x