How do I forgive & forget?

[DoingItForMyself]

I've been married to DH for 13 years, we have 3 lovely DCs but our relationship has hit rock-bottom.

My self-esteem is at ground level and I blame him at least partly for that, as he has very little emotional intelligence and can be detached cold and selfish at times.

Of course his version of events is very different - I am volatile, over-emotional and needy. He will insist that whatever he has said or done to make me feel unloved or useless is just my opinion and I have 'taken remarks the wrong way' or 'out-of-context' or exaggerated what he actually said.

The up-shot is, I either have to leave him or accept the part I have played in our appalling marriage and try to move on together. How can I forget the words that ring in my ears and the ugly picture of myself I see when I look at myself through his eyes?

Vander, the blaming thing was the very first thing he mentioned when he came home and I asked how it went. He didn't understand why I got upset by that and said it wasn't meant as a criticism of me specifically, as I wasn't with him when his dad died, but that if he'd been with the right person (some imaginary 5% of the population who apparently have magical healing powers!) he might not have built up this wall - it was all very confusing, I'm not sure he really remembered what exactly was said, this is perhaps just how he interpreted it.

He also said that apparently the reason he wasn't stacking up as a dad was due to the media and social pressures that I was inflicting on him to be the perfect TV family, and that he and the counsellor reminisced about how great childhood was when your parents sent you out to play and you didn't come home til tea time (again, my fault for wanting an unrealistic family set-up)

There hasn't been an affair or anything major. I've been sorely tempted recently, but refrained, it was a rocky patch while I worked through it in my head, but maybe that's why I'm feeling that its make or break time. I know that there could be a lovely bloke out there somewhere who'd actually enjoy being with me and make me feel special and loved. It just won't be the father of my children.

Thanks op, That's really helpful and astute. It sounds crazy to me that someone would come back from counselling and blame someone they weren't even with for not being there for them when their father died. Perhaps this was his unkind, inexpressive way of trying to approach how lonely he was.

I'm going to be completely honest, op, and you sound perfectly lovely so you must ignore me if it's of no use to you, but since your earliest posts I've felt there's been a need for you to justify something by using and highlighting all your husband's bad behaviors. It reads to me that you have always been in a flawed relationship, but you've put up with it, and recently something or someone as helped you realize that maybe you deserve better. Your husband doesn't seem to have changed massively since you married him, flawed as he is. Either you are finally strong enough to move out from the discomfort and misery of your marriage, or you are redefining his worst qualities in a way that excuses your leaving or having an affair. Be honest with yourself, that's all. I'll bow out now.
Good luck.

Sounds to me like neither of you are acknowledging the fact that you are a fantastic mother and wife, and he'd be hugely worse off on his own. As an expert silent protester/sulker myself, you sound to me like someone who finds it difficult to express to him how furious his behaviour makes you feel. Is it time to let him see how angry you are, tell him his behaviour is totally unacceptable and that the two of you need to seriously work on the counselling otherwise your marriage is at serious risk?

.........and yes he does sound quite a bit Aspergery to me - but what difference would that make anyway? At the end of the day, he has to be the husband you're happy to live with, and you the wife he is happy to live with. He has to grasp that, otherwise you'll be gone.

I think that's what's happened Downtrod - I'm finally letting him see how the 'little things' make me feel. My anger and 13 years of resentment have now been released, which now makes me come across as a totally neurotic loon!

This morning he offered to take the DCs to school. I was dressed and ready, so then I had a dilemma - if I say no don't worry, then I'm not letting him 'help me' or spend 5 minutes with the DCs, which clearly makes me unreasonable and in the wrong.

However, if I accept his offer, he will use it as ammunition in our next argument, by saying that when he has a day off or a late start he is still expected to be somewhere or do something, the school run breaks up his free time and he ends up duplicating my jobs, so he never gets any proper time off, which also makes me unreasonable and wrong.

Catch 22 for me.

'he was told that if he'd been with the right person she could have helped him to break down his barriers (even that was my fault and it happened 15 years before I met him!) so I discouraged him from continuing with that.'

• which interpretation I am sure you heard from his own caring lips!! NO counsellor would ever say that. No doubt the counsellor said something quite challenging which then got projected onto you.

Owning stuff is very very hard for people like this. I think downtrod makes a good point - that it is time so draw some serious lines and conveying how angry you are, that the disrespect has to stop and that somehow he needs to learn to listen and take you seriously or the marriage is at risk and he won't have a family to disparage.

And - he should be tested for Aspergers, it should not be assumed.

OP it is always catch 22 isn't it? Nobody should have to think through the consequences of accepting or declining an offer to take the DCs to school in the morning. No wonder you feel exhausted. It's like playing chess all the time every day.

I am not surprised that he ticks many EA boxes, he does not sound Asberger's to me...I could expand but I think the red herring can swim off for now.

Abuse like this tends to escalate over time, and your ability to keep the blinkers on reduces as you become more and more worn down and the DCs start to have a greater personality and force in the home.

much love to you OP as you work out what is happening and what to do.

Aaaah, the double bind!!!

Work on your sense of self. You can accept the offer, then when the double bind comes up, stay calm, look at him and say 'that is the reality of children, their needs come first. If you don't want the reality of children, you can always choose to live on your own' [Completely calm]. Then, [name], you really have to start to GROW UP. Then WALK AWAY.

Walk away. Leave the house, leave him in space and silence that had NO DRAMA (energy of the anger HE has got you to express so he can blame YOU). He can't hold you to the contract of the double bind if you don't feel the obligation.

You are starting to detach, even before you posted, so he is not the one in control here.

"We tried Relate but the counsellor suggested DH should look at the possibility that he might have Aspergers and said that she couldn't really offer us any help as he was obviously unable to empathise"

Relate counsellor was in my view totally irresponsible to mention AS so blithely and without any real foundation. What did your H say to that?.

I see also that others have made reference to narcissism. An innate inability to empathise is more characteristic of narcissists. Feeling more entitled than others and completely self absorbed can also be attributed to narcissism. Narcissists as well can be extremely cruel.

I would put a crisp £5 note on it that your H is not anywhere on the ASD spectrum. He actively enjoys seeing you squirm. He won't ever put himself forward for any assessment either and he is basically telling you to put up and shut up by his actions.

Actually Attila I think he'd quite like a diagnosis just so that he'd have some real reason for not 'getting it' all. That's where the narc thing goes wrong for me, as I'm convinced he's not cruel, just doesn't realise what effect he has on people.

His next counsellor actually reported the previous one for suggesting ASD, but I thought she was lovely and could see how I was struggling, really upset, while he was saying really odd things about not really seeing the point of spending time with his family - what's in it for him etc. without a shred of emotion. She was just saying what she saw.

This morning he has had a rant because DS1 borrowed his socks yesterday for school. DS thought he didn't have any clean (hadn't looked properly) so I lent him a pair of DH's and he got really cross about it (yes really, about socks...they were his special sport socks ) as it showed a total lack of organisation/respect.

It resulted in a huge row about DS not tidying his stuff up when asked, not doing his homework til the last minute etc) and I am now supposed to feel bad for lending DS socks instead of teaching him a life lesson and forcing him to go to school with no socks on (I don't feel bad by the way, I know I did the rational sensible thing and have made sure I do some dark washing today to ensure it doesn't happen again. In the meantime if he needs any more, I will give him some.)

As the mother of a son with Aspergers/ASD, I would like to point out that being unkind and nasty is not on the list of symptoms!!!!! Being an Aspie, is not some kind of get out of jail free card for bad behaviour and most of the Aspie kids & adults I have got to know through DS are genuine, honest & kind. If they are blunt sometimes, it isn't usually cruel, just a tad more honest than the rest of us might be.

I can feel your sense of frustration & injustice DoingIt - but I think you need to have a long think about if you want to be with this man. If you do, then you really need to find different strategies for dealing with him. Have you had any counselling yourself? I had some, just for me, & found it very helpful.

Yes, I think maybe that's my next step Post.

I tend more towards the Aspie idea than anything else, because I don't think he's cruel or manipulative, as some have said - I can see that he is as genuinely confused and puzzled by my reactions as I am to his and he has perfectly logical rational explanations for his actions, all delivered with a deadpan expression!

I think he definitely process things in an unusual way and I suppose I'm trying to get my head around his way of seeing things to decide once and for all whether I can/want to put up with it, regardless of a label.

There are practical reasons why a diagnosis wouldn't really be possible but I am 99% sure that he is more AS than NT. We have both done lots of reading about it and he is quite satisfied that AS 'fits' him, but I wouldn't push him for a formal diagnosis because at his age I don't think there would be any benefit.

Thanks for that clarification Crystal. I think it definitely bothers him that I'm upset, even though he's not very good at dealing with it, he will say I don't want you to be upset, why would I want to hurt your feelings, it wasn't meant to be a criticism, I'm just trying to be realistic etc. which (fortunately!) rules out the psychopath theory.

But I've always felt like the main reason he doesn't want me to be upset is because it is annoying/distressing to him and he is expected to take some action (even though he doesn't really know what action) rather than because being upset must be hard for me, IYSWIM, which sort of tallies with the lack of cognitive empathy.

^he doesn't want me to be upset is because it is annoying/distressing to him and he is expected to take some action^ yes, yes and yes.

Please please don't go down the ASD route, unless you are being very very picky about what you are reporting he really is not far down this spectrum, if there at all and you can waste so much time making excuses...also it is truly depressing for those who do have ASD to be lumped together with people who are behaving badly.

Fool, I probably am being very picky on here as I can't list every way in which he has upset/confused/baffled me over the years and the examples here are not really indicative of the type of incidents that have happened, they're just the more recent that have set me off this week!

I'm very reluctant to label him as it isn't 100% by any means, but there were some 'lightbulb moments' when looking into it that we both recognised in him.

He has strange obsessions with touching fabrics and rubbing things (like babies do with tags!) and buys all the same clothes but in different colours and won't wear stuff with zips/buttons and has trouble with change/lack of routine etc. There are just loads of random 'odd' behaviours that point to something along those lines.

I do see it as a bit of a get out clause, so I'm reserving judgement, hence not mentioning it up front, but when it was first suggested he seemed so relieved that it might be the answer (its not the first time someone has mentioned it to him) but I was totally mourning the loss of the relationship I hoped to save, because it seemed that nothing could be done to change how we interact.

In a way I hope it isn't 'a condition' that can't be treated, I would much rather he is just 'badly'/thoughtlessly behaved and can find a way not to be for the sake of our family, but as it is a spectrum, I am happy to assume that he is 'somewhere towards one end' of a particular set of behaviours while I am at totally the other end and we need to find a place to meet in the middle.

he doesn't want me to be upset is because it is annoying/distressing to him

I still think he is a narcissist.

Stop trying to fathom him, and focus on yourself. The trouble with living with someone like this WHATEVER he is, is that they suck you dry. You end up doubting yourself. So forget about him, and really focus at all times (especially in stress ie the socks) on what you feel, what you think, and what you want. Because the answer lies there.

And calmly 'if you didn't live here, you wouldn't have to share your socks with ANYONE' might give him something to think about.

What, about him, would you miss? That might be worth focussing on. A sort of plus and minus column.

DoingIt - do you know what, even if he does have Aspergers, he is still behaving badly and unkindly. My DS knows damn well that you don't make personal comments about people because it is unkind.

I've just cut and pasted a few of your comments below. The things you describe are not symptoms of Aspergers, they are symptoms of someone being nasty to you.

"Last time I bought cinnamon buns (his fave) DH complained about me buying too much rubbish and letting the kids eat crap."

"He has made 'jokey' comments about the way I look or that I used to be a man etc."

"If I accept his offer, he will use it as ammunition in our next argument, by saying that when he has a day off or a late start he is still expected to be somewhere or do something, the school run breaks up his free time and he ends up duplicating my jobs, so he never gets any proper time off, which also makes me unreasonable and wrong."

That's where the narc thing goes wrong for me, as I'm convinced he's not cruel, just doesn't realise what effect he has on people.

Does he treat other people outside of your family unit the same way as he does you?. No?.

I still think your man has a narcissistic personality and I have learnt you cannot have any sort of relationship with a narc as they make it all about them.

Forget trying to fathom him out and instead think about you and your children here. The emotional fallout on them will happen in years to come if you choose to remain within this, what are you teaching your children about relationships here?. This whole relationship you have is a complete disaster:(. Is this the legacy you want to be leaving these young people?.

Do you know what Attila, I really don't know how he treats other people. He doesn't really have friends to speak of and says as little as he can get away with to most people. I think he finds it all a bit exhausting to talk to anyone except about work, perhaps because he is constantly tripping over himself trying not to say the wrong thing? Then when he's with me he lets his guard down.

I agree he show traits of NPD too, so as you, and the lovely Wobbly above, have suggested I think trying to figure out why DH is the way he is won't really help me. I need to figure out who I am underneath all this, and how to prevent my DCs from feeling the same way I do. I have already had a big talk with DH today about the way he reacted to 'sock-gate' and that I really don't want that to happen again.

The most worrying part for me is that I find myself mirroring his issues and getting cross with the DCs on his behalf. I need to chill out, take back control and find myself so that I can parent them properly, with or without his input.

How did he react to the big talk?

Do you know, it isn't the worst thing in the world parenting wise to say to your children when you are on your own 'I am sorry Daddy overreacted to [the socks], sometimes he is wrong about things and makes too much of a fuss.'

Think about it. You are calmly re-iterrating a truth (DH is unreasonable) and allowing your children to feel their upset and their reality. Allow them to articulate (Daddy makes me really cross/sad sometimes). As long as you don't go on a rant about him, or confide in them, you are saying calmly 'the sky is blue' and keeping them safe with their feelings.
Sadly children ALWAYS turn things into being their own fault. So, if another adult is saying 'that's not fair' they can be given permission to feel it.

Because he is NOT fair!

DH seems receptive to everything I'm saying at the moment. He nods and says yes I can see how that must be upsetting and I understand why you feel that xx is unfair. He is just the model of reasonable, rational behaviour so I have tried to keep as calm as I can when talking about how I feel, which I think helps. He reacts better if I'm not crying or shouting and I feel more in control of the situation when I don't have snot running down my face!

I explained how I felt about the Catch 22 school run and he was shocked that I thought I had to put that much thought into a tiny decision and said "of course I wouldn't have complained about having to do that, I like taking them" but then when I reminded him that he has previously complained about the school run breaking up his day etc he realised that I put the 2 events together and make a connection, whereas to him, they are separate incidents which don't bear any relation to each other .

He also said "do you think its because you don't have much to occupy your mind at the moment? Because I don't really have time to think about things in such great detail" - PA much?!

I did mention the socks Wobbly, both to DS and to DH (separately) and told DS that I thought DH was being unreasonable and that if it happened again I would still find some spare socks for him regardless of what Daddy might say. DH agreed that his reaction was OTT. He also suggested that while I was out that I buy an extra pack of socks so it doesn't happen again and I did that.

I'm sure its not a massive leap to mention here that DS thought he had skin cancer due to a bruise on his leg (saw his google history this morning so he's obviously worrying about it despite me reassuring him) - his anxiety levels are rising due to the stress we are causing him

Doing it it is good to talk isn't it..I feel these responses are particularly illuminating

^Catch 22 school run...... to him, they are separate incidents which don't bear any relation to each other^do you think its because you don't have much to occupy your mind at the moment?^^ so the problem is that you are thinking too much, not that he is saying things that are confusing and acting inconsistently?

^ DH agreed that his reaction was OTT. He also suggested that while I was out that I buy an extra pack of socks so it doesn't happen again and I did that^ he admitted because he had no choice but made it very clear that you were responsible for making sure it didn't happen again by buying more socks (NB you bought them, he didn't) he controlled the outcome again.

Yes you can see your DS stress rising. It won't just be about the explosions...it will be the uncertainty of what is/isn't allowed and what response is acceptable

You are being very strong looking at all this head on.
Best wishes

Good points Fool, but in fairness when I said that no I wasn't planning to pop out today, he said that we had something to take back to Next and that he could do both on the way to work if he left in the next 5 minutes (an offer to help, but with a clear message that it would be a bigger inconvenience to him than to me!)

I insisted that I didn't mind doing it and also popped in to buy DS his fave buns at the same time, as a clear message to DH that I don't care whether he likes them, we do and I will buy them regardless.

We also went for our 'family' meal last night while DH was at work. Turned up at 'my choice' of restaurant only to find out that I needed my receipt from my previous visit to be able to use my voucher

My stomach lurched until I realised that DH wasn't there - no-one was going to make me feel stupid for not reading the small print or pretend that this is why he knew all along that my choice was wrong!

We just left, went home and picked up the vouchers for DH's favoured place and went there instead. Felt a bit mean TBH and dreaded having to tell him when he got home, but when he asked what I'd been up to and I told him, he didn't make a negative comment about it.

doing it good for you.
I understand completely that you are using short-hand and that he makes contributions and offers you don't include in posts.

I am responding to the way he makes you feel and act. This is the difference between "normal" and "abnormal" interactions.

hope your meal was tasty!