How do I forgive & forget?

[DoingItForMyself]

I've been married to DH for 13 years, we have 3 lovely DCs but our relationship has hit rock-bottom.

My self-esteem is at ground level and I blame him at least partly for that, as he has very little emotional intelligence and can be detached cold and selfish at times.

Of course his version of events is very different - I am volatile, over-emotional and needy. He will insist that whatever he has said or done to make me feel unloved or useless is just my opinion and I have 'taken remarks the wrong way' or 'out-of-context' or exaggerated what he actually said.

The up-shot is, I either have to leave him or accept the part I have played in our appalling marriage and try to move on together. How can I forget the words that ring in my ears and the ugly picture of myself I see when I look at myself through his eyes?

I see what you mean about specifics. A bit like with the DCs, instead of saying "wow, that's a good picture" I'd say "you kept all the colours really neatly inside the lines" or something specific. I'll bear that in mind.

We have a big family calendar with all his shifts and DCs activities on it, so I should make more use of that to plan when he'll have time to himself, when we can do things together etc. Thanks I feel a bit more positive about things now :)

You got it - think toddler taming!

Is this controlling behaviour or just being a bloke?:

I texted him this afternoon to say "We have a 40% discount voucher for xx restaurant. Shall we all go this evening or shall I take DCs tomorrow?" (he's working a late shift tomorrow, so it gives him a get-out clause if he doesn't want to go)

His reply "can I think about it and decide later"
Then later "Just remembered we have vouchers for yy restaurant in the file"

So even when I'm assertive, but I try to give him a bit of space to think about my suggestion, I give him a clear Option A & B, he invents Option C - grrrr!

What do I do with that?

p.s. told him my voucher expires on 31st, so it is either today or tomorrow. His are valid for months.

He sounds very controlling and you are walking on eggshells all the time.
Of course he can be nice when he wants to.
The downside is that most of the time he can't be bothered.
You can't "help him to be better."
He has to choose to behave better. And he doesn't want to.
In his eyes the solution is for you to let him have his own way all the time and stop complaining.

This isn't controlling, it just sounds distracted and a bit unhelpful. At the very very worst I'd say it's someone who feels mildly resentful they have to live in a family situation at all. My father was like this growing up, he just preferred to be in a different room and didn't join in with any family stuff. To be honest, I'm a bit like that now. I don't have children because I know exactly what constraints they place on your time and I'm just not ready for it. Some people never are. They find it exhausting

Or maybe he's just someone who isn't good at making decisions. I would read that he'd rather go to restaurant yy out of what you've said. This sort of minutiae is the stuff of relationships and though I know it's really frustrating when you're already in a low place, it can either be the air or the death of a partnership. It feels to me that at best he's an introvert and he finds all this activity and external social pressure exhausting and needs to 'refuel' by being by himself (possibly in opposition to you) or, at very worst, he's not committed to the family and has found or is looking for another option outside it, thus placing all the blame on you.

The name-calling and hurtful remarks are the only thing that makes me say that last bit. I just can't understand why someone would do that in a relationship unless they are pushing their partner to change into someone else or leave them.

Does it really matter which restaurant you go to? Are the vouchers that important? Why not text back & say, "I'm easy, you pick".

If you really, really do care, then say that you'd like to use up the vouchers for your restaurant, so can he let you know if he wants to go tonight.

If you have to pick your fights, this shouldn't be one of them!

DIFM,

He has no real intention of going with you to this restaurant anyway hence throwing in his own option. Not good at all. Very passive aggressive of him to boot.

Its a nice day (well here anyway), take the children out tonight and have a nice meal without him.

Re your comment to another respondent:-
"Annie I know that divorce is definitely an option, but I feel that I should be trying everything I can to make things work, just in case there is a chance that I am making mountains out of molehills and he is genuinely unaware of the impact he has on me"

This sort of sentiment is precisely what keeps some women in truly awful relationships for too long. Low self esteem and worth will also have you thinking like that. Why is this seemingly solely your responsibility, what is he doing or has done to address this; seemingly nothing from what I have read.

Oh he knows what he is doing alright, these types of men actively enjoy watching their woman squirm on the end of the hook like you are. They also rewrite history to suit their own ends. Do read "Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft.

What else can you do without his actual imput in this relationship, nothing actually. Its okay to walk away from this marriage.

BTW what are his parents like?. Probably one or both of them are very similar so its all deeply rooted anyway and besides which you are not his therapist and he does not want your help.

You need to consider what you are both teaching your children about relationships here because currently they are being imparted damaging lessons.
He will not change; you can only change how you react to him.

I would also strongly recommend, 'Too Good to Leave Too bad to Stay' by Mira Kirshenbaum. It gives you very clear, incredibly strong advice as to what you need to do. I would also look at when this behaviour started. If it has always been like this, I think you may well be in a very ill-suited relationship that's bad for you. If it has only started in the last few years, something's changed and you need to find out what it is.

Vander thanks for the book recommendation.

The problem with someone saying they aren't really cut out to have children is that the time-machine hasn't been invented yet and DH does have 3 DCs whether or not he may be ready/willing/able to look after them.

Attila I never met his parents as his dad died when DH was a teenager and his mum just before we met. Sounds like they were a happy couple but very traditional 1950s mum/dad roles.

In fairness I don't know if any of this is really calculated or manipulative, I get the impression that he just feels that he is naturally more important or entitled than everyone else.

Its more like he just can't see why he would have to consider what would make others happy - surely they should be doing that for themselves.

Post I don't want an argument with him over this - I just posted about it because I mentioned upthread that if I suggest getting a takeaway he will say "not today, how about on Friday" etc so this was just another example of me making a suggestion (or in fact 2 suggestions) and him not going along with either. Obviously I don't care where we go to eat if I don't have to cook, but it just feels wrong that my two suggestions were both passed over in favour of his 'better' one.

This where I feel things go wrong, because what should be a nice evening with the family is tainted by the feeling that my opinions come second to his. Its a tiny thing but another nail in the coffin of my self-esteem - I can't even pick a restaurant.

Okay, OP, I get you. And of course I wasn't excusing his behaviour by suggesting he might not be cut out for children. It's entirely his responsibility to realise that beforehand or alter his behaviour.

I suppose what's difficult is to pull apart how much he's at fault and should be forced to recognise this and change where possible, or how much you are just ill-matched. For example, to say, shall we get a take-away and the other person to say 'not today, how about friday' would seem, in most situations, to be entirely fine and normal. When, as you say, it's about a strange, character destroying attempt to continually undermine or hurt you, that's not.

So many power issues can be addressed in counselling because, with a third party present, it's usually clear pretty quickly if someone is being cruel and or controlling, it's impossible to hide.

I would still be interested to know if this, on some scale, has always been the case, or if it started in a particular period. Particularly the name calling and snideness. And is it more common when you are alone or when he has an audience?

I think some of you posts read like you are keen to find support for leaving him and if that's the case I would definitely suggest reading that book. It'll give you as clear and definitive an answer as anywhere.

His parents dying relatively young could be a clue to his entitlement. Does he have any siblings? Sometimes, when family is lost or denied to people, even in young adulthood, it becomes increasingly difficult to accept the family unit as a 'given' or something to be automatically adjusted to.

Isn't it funny that [men like this] are all 'socially akward'... its just something I have noticed.

Doing, before you go to the drastic step of divorce, I think you should let him know loud and clear that he is in last chance saloon.

There are two things you MUST do: 1. tell him that you are unhappy, and that you must both attend counselling. 2. If he refuses to go, tell him that you are going on your own. And go.

When women do this, apparently the men simply cannot keep up the denial that something isn't wrong; and this more than anything, makes them uncomfortable and more likely to take up their part of responsibility.

In counselling (because he will say you are the one with the problem, there's nothing wrong with him) you can explore the dyanimcs, where you disappeared to and how he gets his own way the whole time, and find yourself.

Then you can decide what you can put up with and what you can't. But I am smelling a large whiff of NARCISSIST on the breeze...

That rejoinder: 'and apparently you used to be one too' - brilliant!!!!

just a series of tiny thoughtless acts
my every thought, every action is governed by what 'he' will think,
[don't] know where I start and he stops.
do I avoid annoying him'
a chance that I am making mountains out of molehills
he is genuinely unaware of the impact he has on me.
I know I expect a lot from a husband, NO YOU DON't
He is quite shy and awkward around people he doesn't know well

and other things you wrote: you are married to a narcissist.

Time to get to know the nature of the beast!

Attila, you're either psychic or my DH!

When he got home I didn't say anything about going out to eat, let him come in and get changed, settle into being home. Then he said "what do you want to do about dinner then?" I took the advice upthread and said "I'm easy, its up to you" and reiterated my reasons for choosing the restaurant I had.

He said he'd prefer the other one (with equally valid reasons), and then.... opened the fridge, looked on the noticeboard where I write our meal options and said "what have we got that we could have at home?"

My heart sank, as I suppose I knew it would end up this way. It had been my suggestion, so it was never going to happen.

I called him up on it and told him how it made me feel when he undermined me and never let me make a simple decision. By trying to control every aspect of my life he has pushed me further away, as now I will just go tomorrow with the DCs without him. Just another little disappointment

Must now google Narcissist....

Your H sounds like a joy-sucker

"socially awkward" sure lets him off the hook don't it...effectively promoting his way and his choice and the get-out clause of him opting out of family life when it suits him

I don't think he's socially awkward exactly so much as I'm a little suspicious of why he's deliberately sabotaging this relationship. It costs him nothing to go to that restaurant, or to say he'd rather go to the other restaurant and facilitate that happening. So why is he trying, deliberately, to scupper both? I know the OP is feeling it very personally (and who wouldn't?!) as an attempt to undermine her but if that's the case, why not insist they go to his choice of restaurant - that's a clear show of power. If it is just to mess with her it's cruel to the point of being totally unsolveable.

Some of the examples given just seem strange to me. It's like there's information missing.

If he was lazy and feckless wouldn't he just shrug and say, 'yeah okay whatever', and they'd end up at the first restaurant. This continual disempowerment and disengagement seems to me either like a serious shitty personality problem that needs to be addressed and owned up to in counselling, or a deliberate attempt to sap all feelings of fun, joy and sharing from the relationship which is often the symptom of an affair or of someone desperately and trying to get their partner to leave, in a really cowardly fashion.

^he just feels that he is naturally more important or entitled than everyone else^.

exactly.

And he will continue to put you down, make you walk on eggshells, take over ideas, alter plans and generally act like a low-life because you don't count, your DCs don't count, he is the only "I" in the house and don't you forget it!

I am glad you set high store by marriage, so do I.

But it takes 2 to make one!

Out of the fog: narcissistic personality disorder have a look here to clear your view

and maybe hereheart to heart

keep posting Op

The reason I'm trying to flush it out rather than just rule a line under it and say 'Move on', is because the title of the thread suggests the OP wants to 'forgive and forget'. What specifically she is forgiving and forgetting I'm not sure, this behaviour is subtle, painful and ongoing, so forgive and forget is just not applicable. Surely it's a matter of, 'can I live with this?' and 'why is this happening?'

As an aside to vander living in this sort of relationship long term results in EXACTLY the confusion that you are feeling. The partner will distrust her (or his} instinct because her OH is not predictably bad or controlling. It's like walking on quicksand...you never know when you are going to start sinking.

It is deliberate though not planned. By that I mean that it is usually an instinctive but voluntary way of behaving and the OH usually has a good idea of when to apply pressure and when to ease up to produce the required compliance from his(or her) partner/family without producing a "run for the hills response". However once they have been "seen" behaviour often gets worse as they flounder around trying to get back control.

Often these people are not so much into controlling their environment it is their partner that is the focus of control. So objectively they often appear lazy/not controlling.

sorry Op hope that is helpful and not distracting for you.

That's really useful, fool. And it's very heartening to see OP address him and call him on it. 13 years is a long time to be at the mercy of this draining insecurity. When did this behaviour begin, OP, or has it always been there? If it has always been there at what point has it tipped into unacceptable to you? Has it been gradual or have there been one or several sudden drops in standard of behaviour from him? What, if anything, has given you the confidence to begin seriously thinking about leaving/solving it?

The original post suggests you know that his behaviour is out of order, that he misrepresents the truth and that it has had a hugely detrimental effect on you. When you say ' accept the part i've played in this appalling marriage' do you think that's fair on yourself?

Joy-sucker - AF - sums him up completely. Thanks for the back-up Fool.

Vander - Its always been a bit imbalanced, but its difficult to say when it deteriorated to such an extent. We've come to the brink of him leaving a few times over the last 2-3 years but it is such a huge step that I can't honestly say its the right thing until I've exhausted every other avenue.

We're always moving house, he moves jobs, we've never stayed anywhere longer than 2 years, so I suppose all the changes masked any subtle differences - it could always be attributed to something else (new baby, DH working away from home, stress of selling a house etc) and we've had ups in between the downs so I've just accepted things as part of being married.

We tried Relate but the counsellor suggested DH should look at the possibility that he might have Aspergers and said that she couldn't really offer us any help as he was obviously unable to empathise, which is the basis of counselling. A lot of the info on ASD does ring true, but I can't say that I am 100% convinced.

He also tried solo sessions to try and see if losing his dad at a young age had affected his ability to show emotions appropriately, but (apparently) he was told that if he'd been with the right person she could have helped him to break down his barriers (even that was my fault and it happened 15 years before I met him!) so I discouraged him from continuing with that. Maybe I shouldn't have as at least he was showing willingness to change.

I suggested him living away during the week, as he seems happier on his own and it would make his commute easier and maybe make him less tired and stressed (& give us a break from his impossibly high standards!) He nodded as I was saying that he might be happier living away from us, but said we couldn't afford it, listing the price of petrol and how much that would equate to per month for rent.....oh and he would miss us all. He just has no idea of how to even appear to be caring.

I suppose "my part" refers to the fact that I have certain expectations and I'm not willing to let them go, so I make him miserable too. He said the other day that being with me makes him argue more than he ever has with anyone else before. Given that he's never lived with anyone for 13 years and had 3 kids with them that isn't really surprising to me, but is obviously an issue for him.

Thanks that's so useful and insightful. You must feel very ground down and despairing, i'm sorry. I would suspect it's undoubtedly the case that losing his father affected his ability to express or understand emotion, but that doesn't help you much in the present tense. If the relate counsellor went so far as to suggest he was Aspergers you must feel validated in your frustration. His reporting on solo counselling sounds faintly bizarre, possibly an emotionally naive retelling of something else that was said, or else it's a mean way of trying to make you feel responsible for his lack of progress. It is a shame as you say that he won't pursue it with someone else.

What's worrying to me is that it sounds like he used his solo counselling as an opportunity to complain about you, or about dissatisfaction with your partnership, when he clearly has issues. was this what he mainly brought back to you or was that a minor note among other things?

has there been a major betrayal in the past few years?

It sounds like he puts in no effort to this relationship and also blames his unhappiness on it. That's a toxic and cruel mixture. He sounds like he's given up. I understand that you are committed to exhausting every other avenue, but that's difficult and pointless to do on one's own. The reason i was trying to trace the psychology and root of his behaviour was not to make you feel insecure in your anger, OP, but to find an understanding that could begin a different sort of relationship, a better one. This level of unacknowledged cruelty can't be trained out of someone like a dog. It's either in him, inwhich case get the hell away to save your sanity, or (his argument probably) there's something about him so difficult that you two can't get past it without constant friction and are totallly struggling to co-exist and communicate properly. In which case he needs to want to change and you need to help him.

Was it ever 'good'? Does any of that survive? In him or in you as a pair?

On some level he resents you massively (why is he constantly criticising you? That's cruel isn't it, rather than autistic?) and you rightly resent him. Him being unable to empathize is hugely dysfunctional and destructive. It either has to be understood, addressed and changed or else you don't want to exhaust every avenue, OP, you just want to feel you have so you can get out and understandably so, he sounds horrible to you.

I've used the words 'emotional abuse' in my mind when thinking of how I feel, Foolonthehill, but I hadn't realised how many of the things on that 'heart to heart' list I can actually tick

I have told him that telling someone you love them and then being mean to them is usually something that only an abusive person would do. He said that he wasn't abusive and I said that I didn't think he was either, but now I'm not so sure!

Fortunately most of the statements on the list that I agreed with are the fairly low level ones and even then, some of them are borderline, but it makes me realise that in the context of a loving relationship those things should never happen.

Wow yes, AF - 'Joysucker' (that's gotta be on a par with cock-lodger...)

I remember exP calling me 'joyless' - probably because he'd sucked all the joy out of me. But I hung on hoping it would all get better. Don't make the mistakes I did, DoingIt. I'm not saying 'leave the bastard' but give it a short time-limit.