Estranged from dd, how do I get access?

[TwoTribes]

It's not actually me, it's my sister, I'm posting on her behalf. She divorced last year and her 12 year old dd who was living with her is now living with her ex (dds biological dad).

Dd wants nothing to do with dsis, will not visit or speak to her on the phone. Is dsis entitled to see her dd? Does the dd have to meet her and does her ex have to make sure that dd attends the meetings?

Dsis has a solicitor but can't afford more advice. She is really struggling and starting to feel like she doesn't have the strength to fight. If she does fight, does she stand a chance of getting access, or will it be a waste of money? That's what she wants to know.

I would really appreciate any advice as I think she should never, ever give up trying to see her dd. Thanks.

While the Family Courts take the wishes of the child into consideration, I can't imagine that any Court will deny your dsis the right to see her 12yo dd on a regular basis unless there are child protection issues or similar serious concerns for her welfare.

Your dsis can obtain free legal advice from www.rightsofwomen.org.uk

I would have thought that a 12 year old is able to make this decision and have no legal knowledge but would have thought no court would enforce her seeing her mother if she states she doesnt want to.

It would depend entirely on the cirumstances, rainbow.

If one parent has attempted to poison a child's mind against the other, the Courts could take the view that the child should not remain living with that parent.

The Courts would be less likely to intervene if a child of c14/15 was effectively voting with their feet but at 12yo a child is still in their formative years.

We are not sure, but I do think the ex could be trying to influence her dd against her. I used to chat regularly with her too on fb but now she ignores my messages too .

Nothing ventured, nothing gained; and in this case it would seem that both your dsis and her dd have something to be gained.

I'm afraid at 12, it is your DNeice's decision; we were on the opposite side of this a little over a year ago, DSD came to live with us and refused all contact with her mother, Court said it was DSD's decision and the contact order simply states "any such contact as DSD may wish".

If it goes to Court, DNeice will likely have to speak to Court welfare officer, DSD had to, which was to ensure she seemed mature enough to make this decision, was aware of implications and that she was not under any undue influence from DH or I.

Sorry OP, slow typist and x-posted with your last post. If it goes to Court, Court welfare officer should hopefully pick up if there are issues with undue influence from her father, good luck to you and your sis.

Every case is looked at on its merits. If it had been thought that your dh/you had influenced her decision, it's likely that there would have been a different outcome for your dsd, Dizzy.

Thanks Dizzy I am afraid that is what my dsis is so worried about. If her dd does not want to see her, she feels that there is nothing she can do about it.

Dd is, of course, a typical teenager and if her parents were still together she would have had to live with them and sort out their differences like we all do with our teenage children.

It's so difficult to understand that courts would allow a child to make this decision. Even if she is mature, knows her own mind and is confident that she understands the implications for the future, at the end of the day she is a child and, in my opinion, cannot make that informed and rational decision that they seem to think it is.

My dsis is heartbroken and pining for her dd, just to hear her voice, or hold her in her arms, it is such a sad situation. I am hoping that time will help heal this rift and that her dd will change her mind but am also worried that she has no contact with any family members on my dsis side. She used to be mad about her cousins, especially my ds who she adores.

I guess I will advice dsis to try to pursue access just so that, in the future, her dd will know that she did everything she could. I don't know what her dad is telling her but if she maintains that it's her choice I'm not sure if courts will see it any different. His influence could be quite subtle and she is too young to realise that, imo.

I am aware of that Izzyizin, which is why u said hopefully the court welfare officer will pick it up in this case.

It could be that for some reason your dn feels she has betrayed her mum and may not want to see her through her own guilt - it may not be that her own father has said anything.

I would advise that your sister writes to her dd a short note saying she is there waiting for her when she does want to see her and it will be with open arms when ever that is. Leave door open and make sure that she knows the door is open.

my dd took herself of to live with her dad as she want to make sure he noticed her - in the midst of it she rejected me for 15 months and then came home, she refused to talk to me and I would text to let her know I was thinking of her roughly every two to three weeks - but not needy text just hello

TwoTribes

My DP is in the same situation, it is heartbreaking His DD began to reject him when she was 12, and ceased all contact just after her 13th birthday.

I would recommend you get hold of a copy of "Come Back Pluto" - it's an American DVD produced by a child psychologist called Richard Warshak. The DVD has sections targeting the child, alienated parent and favoured parent in these situations and advice/recommendations for each.

My DP hadn't spoken to his DD at all in over a year, she was refusing all contact and her mum was supporting/encouraging her. After buying a copy of this DVD for himself and watching it, he then bought a second copy and sent it to his DD, along with a letter, explaining that he was sorry that he had made mistakes in the past, and that he wished he had seen the DVD he had enclosed sooner as things might be different if he had.

We don't know if she watched it, but things are very, very slowly beginning to change. DP's ex is no longer actively encouraging the children to reject him, and his DD is slowly beginning to accept contact again.

I know how catastrophic this type of estrangement can be in a family; my DP has lost his relationship with not only his daughter, but his parents and sister as well, as they disapproved and undermined his efforts to relate to his DD

ivykaty thanks, a letter is a good idea, providing she actually receives it.

NotaDisneyMum thanks for sharing your experience. It's awful isn't it. I've had a quick google and can't find that dvd but will keep looking. It doesn't make sense to me that this can be allowed to happen, by law! But there you go, it is what it is.

My mistake - it's caled "Welcome Back Pluto" and is distributed from the USA as a region-free DVD:

www.warshak.com/alienation/pluto-dvd-2.html

you can send the letter and then text her to make sure she got the letter.or send the letter through facebook or school

Do you know why your DN doesn't want to see her mother? I don't feelyou're giving us the full background here.

I really feel for your sister who is in a dreadful position.
As a child my mother alienated me and my siblings from my father. We always said that we didn't want to see my dad (but we did want to see him and we missed him terribly).
Thirty years on I am still hurt that my dad didn't fight hard for us. The feelings of rejection I experienced throughout my childhood/adolescence have had a lifelong impact on me. My dad should have (at the very least) written to us regularly. Eventually we would have stopped ignoring him and been reassured that he loved us.
Encourage your sister to do everything she can to maintain some kind of contact with her daughter even if for years she gets nothing but negativity back.
Sincere good luck to her in her tough tough situation.

ivykaty some good suggestions there, I'll pass them on, thanks.

Rhinestone dsis says they have been clashing recently over things like homework and tidying her bedroom. Obviously it hasn't been handled too well but there is no suggestion of neglect or any kind of abuse. Just parent and teenager type problems.

It has been a difficult time for all of them over the last few years. I don't know what prompted her dd to decide to stay with her dad, other than the possibility that she might see more of him as he was not very regular with his visits when she was living with her mum.

Dsis has been struggling financially as he wasn't making regular payments either, she has had to fight for everything through her solicitor. She has also suffered with her health recently and I think the stress of everything has meant that she didn't handle these difficult situations as well as she otherwise might have.

She is prepared to back off if that's what her dd wants but I was thinking along the same lines as you origamirose, that she needs to show that she tried everything to see her dd so that her dd will know in the future that she didn't just give up on her.

I think sending letters is a good idea, she can't text as her dd has changed her number and has also defriended her on fb. I am really hoping that she will have a change of heart after a little more time has passed. I will send her a letter myself as well, just to let her know we all love her and miss her.

My ex used to blame me for the rubbish relationship he had with the kids post seperation.

From the complainst the kids made about him and the behaviour from him I saw the fault lay with him.

I am not saying this is the case with your dsis, just that maybe she needs to look at herself before blaming anyone else why her dd doesn't want contact, if their relationship is rubbish, then as the adult in the relationship with a child that is hurting, the effort needs to come from your dsis.

12 is too young to make that decision imo. what was the age of your DSD when she made the decision to not see her mum Dizzy?

A bit of reverse psychology might not go amiss (risky though). My daughter was doing this a while back and although it was agonising for me, I just had to get on with my life or I was going to die with the pain of losing my her . In the normal course of things - not to get a reaction at all - I went abroad for a few weeks visiting friends; and my daughter found out about it: she was indignant! I think she had enjoyed getting one over on me and expected me to be wilting away (I was! but she didn't know that!). By getting on with my life it punctured her power bubble a bit. I think she was shocked that she didn't have the power she thought she had.

My daughter was closer to 18 than 12, so it may be different for your sister. But I'd bet a bit of power is going on there somewhere. imo it is not good for a child this age to have power over a parent (as long as there are no abuse etc issues of course). My dd also got sniffy with her dad at one stage but I wouldn't let her snub him. As parents I think we have a responsibility to make sure our kids face difficulties in key relationships, not run away from them.

forgot to say that, once she realised she didn't have total power over me, she came running, frightened she might lose me. Unfounded fear as it turns out, of course.. but not on any terms (ie her terms entirely). ime my kids have played with the idea that they have total power over me but that has to be seen to fail. I might die inside but outwardly I won't. They can't believe they have the power to destroy me.

Umm, sounds a bit bordering playing psychological games with your children and bordering emotional abuse to me.

I can't see why you can't be straight forward, maybe a bit of professional help on how to communicate with your child.

I would for a 12 yo go for something along the lines of DC I love you very much, you are very special to me. I enjoy your company and think you are a very nice person. I would very much like to speak to you about what is wrong with our relationship, I assure you that I will listen to you about your critisim of my behaviour and and I will work on anything that I need to change. I would also like you to look at your behaviour and see if we can have a better relationship!

There is no point in saying any of that if you don't mean it words are cheap.

I think some of the behavioural problems in teenage years can stem from the children playing one parent off against another, so I think springydaffs has a point.
If one parent has been the main residential carer, I think it is right that the other parent and the law should try to back that parent up.

Yes your sister will be distraught with the situation, but I think the father should be helping the XW negotiate the daughters return. If he cares about his daughter he should see that it is not healthy for the daughter to boomerang between homes when things don't go her way. He should realise she will do the same to him soon if she is allowed.

I think mantlepiece is correct with her reasoning that a lot of problems can lie with the child trying to play one parents of against the other, they play games and do not realise the consequences.

Sending regular letters, text and the odd phone call to a mobile (as the number will show up as a missed call if they don't answer) is all ways of making sure the door is kept open for a return and showing the child that you are not playing games with them but are willing to talk at any time.

I think the father should be helping the XW negotiate the daughters return.

I think that enforcement action is sometimes needed by the RP, but is rarely forthcoming in these situations, unfortunately.

A RP who allows their DC to choose whether or not to have a relationship with the NRP is sending a clear message to the DC that the relationship is not important - after all, the DC doesn't have the choice whether to go to school or not, but see mum/dad? Oh, well , that's up to you, I can't force you .

Isn't a relationship with a parent more important that schooling?