Estranged from dd, how do I get access?

[TwoTribes]

It's not actually me, it's my sister, I'm posting on her behalf. She divorced last year and her 12 year old dd who was living with her is now living with her ex (dds biological dad).

Dd wants nothing to do with dsis, will not visit or speak to her on the phone. Is dsis entitled to see her dd? Does the dd have to meet her and does her ex have to make sure that dd attends the meetings?

Dsis has a solicitor but can't afford more advice. She is really struggling and starting to feel like she doesn't have the strength to fight. If she does fight, does she stand a chance of getting access, or will it be a waste of money? That's what she wants to know.

I would really appreciate any advice as I think she should never, ever give up trying to see her dd. Thanks.

My uncle is going through the very same with his two children who are 11 and 13.

He has not seen them for two years, apart from the odd occasion when he has known where they were going to be playing a match and he has waited (this was last year), the younger one ran up to him and said he had missed him. His stbex has always been very strange. She agreed for them to all go for a coffee. He told them how much he missed them etc etc and the younger one said his bike needed fixing. My uncle said for him to agree with his mum a convenient time - but that never came.

He writes to them every week, sends txts, has delivered birthday and Xmas presents to the solicitors for them to pass them on (her wishes) but he does not know if the boys even received them.

The boys even blank my parents in the street (live very close by) even though before all of this they used to call round every weekend for a glass of juice and a chocolate biscuit.

My parents offers their house as neutral ground for my uncle and children to meet, stbex told the courts they did not know my parents well enough .

Your Uncle didn't show up to the kids home to fix their bike

Your Uncle didn't show up to the kids home to fix their bike

From experience, an estranged NRP turning up at the RP home (invited or uninvited) can lead to abuse, screaming and accusations of stalking/harrassment; which most NRP wish to avoid their DC's being exposed to.

I'm not saying that is the case here, but it is rarely as simple as just turning up and being welcomed with open arms.

If that is your experience, I feel sorry for you socialising with people who have chosen partners like that to have children with and who lead such negative dramatic lives. and it is your experience thinks it is rare for parents to not get along post seperation.

I wouldn't like the first place I go with it when assessing a situation is 'power play'. SpringyDaffs daughter may have been very nearly an adult but it is not an emotionally healthy person that resorts to those things regardless of age. SD says it is obviously never going to happen that her DD loses her but in actuality that is how that girl looks to have felt, she had to submit to behave in the way that was wanted or be without her mother. I think if that was the tried here when there is one parent the child sees as supportive the one trying to use emotional blackmail to get her back would be given the swift kiss off, some fences never get mended.

At this stage I would think I would see a child that is hurt, quite possibly feeling rejected, with all the associates issues these bring, and is having to deal with a complicated and adult situation - when she is 12.

There is estrangment with the ExH, there is a court battle and there is a 12yo in the middle of this whose last contact with her mother was fraught and not handled well by the OP admisson.
Divorce and estrangment do not happen all of a sudden one morning, there is history. I suspect there is a lot more backstory to this that needs to be thought about and, maybe, apologised for. DD ended up going to live with her father. Quite possibly without realising the full implications of any of the actions that led up to it but that is the situation none the less.
Approach her, write to her and be honest and open, leave evidence of you trying - e-mails, copies of letters etc. Be contrite where it is necessary and make moves toward meetings etc at least in letter form she can mull things over and a drip feed might help her come round. Tbh I don't know what's meant by 'handled badly' if she has lost all respect for her mother or been treated badly then she may well not be persuaded regardless. How long was the relationship bad for? It's sadly true that many adults in the midst of things really don't realise how badly their relationship with the children is getting. It's a shitty situation for a 12yo to be in and she may have no interest because it's the first time in a while things are stable, happy and she's moving on to more independance anyway; she might not be ready to hear anything from her mother yet. If there are concerns about power plays and getting the upper hand then there is a lot of groundwork to be done because the emotional landscape has been unstable for a long time, if it is about trying to provoke a reaction from her mother then that's fairly telling in itself.

I'll probably get flamed for that and I don't mean to make it sound like your Dsis doesn't deserve her child, far from it.
I feel 12years old actually is old enough, particularly as she has been dealing with the aftermath of this just as much as her parents and I would rather err on the child's side than a second hand account of the estranged parents side of the story. Some people genuinely think they are recounting a faithful rendition of things, as Dsis was doing, when actually they just aren't. Without more information then it's not an honest judgement - just supposition. The real needs may be quite different.

it is your experience thinks it is rare for parents to not get along post seperation.

I didn't say that - I said that where the NRP parent is estranged from their DC's, it is unlikely that they will be welcomed with open arms.

The vast majority of separated parent manage (more or less) to co-parent without any major dramas.

No that is not correct Sophie. He had to leave the marital home and move back in with his dad (my grandad). He was waiting for his stbex wife's say so for a mutually convenient time - which never materialised. You are being very judgy.

Nota - spot on with your reply to Sophie. That is exactly what would have happened.

Sugar - we believe that is what has happened here. My uncles stbex is completely deranged. At my brothers wedding, which was a low key informal affair, my uncle got her a chair (we were all sort of sat around together) and said to her 'here I have got a seat for you, would you like some food from the biffet?" she turned around in front of us and said "don't tell me to sit, I am not a dog" . For those two boys to ignore my parents when they have babysat in recent years and taken them to school when she had to go and have her finger dressed every day for a week (uncle at work), it is obviously her doing.

I think it really all hinges on why dd doesn't want to see her mother. You say her dad might have turned her against her and that dsis and dd have clashed over things like rooms and homework - maybe you really don't know what's gone wrong, maybe you are holding back on this thread or maybe your sister is holding back from you.

Some children have legitimate reasons for not wanting to see parents and in my opinion that should be respected.

I am genuinely sorry for your sister - but I am much more sorry for the daughter who is likely to be in her own private hell over all of this, whatever the truth of the matter.

Well if it proves to be a waste of money, then it's a waste of money. But to balance money against rebuilding her relationship with her daughter is odd.
See a new solicitor, get a free 30 minute consultation and apply for a defined contact order. If there has been no abuse or mistreatment from her she has nothing to lose by going to court.

I don't think dsis is blaming her ex for dd leaving but he is definately not helping the situation. He came to collect all her belongings from dsis's house, including her bed, all her clothes and her passport.

The relationship between the parents did not end well. There were arguments and shouting on both parts. I only know what I have been told, of course, but I do feel that there is one important factor that makes me suspect he may be trying to influence her against her mum:

I can understand and respect that she might not want to see or speak to her mum right now, but what about the rest of the family? She was close to her grandparents, to me and my dh, her other aunts and uncles and all her cousins. We have had holidays together and whilst we don't live close enough to visit that often, have always kept in touch.

She has stayed with me and my family for a week almost every summer, without her parents, from a very young age (the first time she stayed for two nights when she was only 18months old). She knows she can turn to us and we will always help and support her. At least, I hope she knows this.

I have sent messages and heard nothing back so far. This is not a good sign, as far as I can tell. To be honest, I am getting a little worried as to whether she is allowed to speak with us now.

Anyway, dsis knows that all the effort has to come from her, that she has a lot of bridges to rebuild. She is happy for her dd to continue to live with her dad if that is what she wants, she would just like to be able to see her maybe once a week, even supervised access.

I would tell her the things you said on here that she can turn to you and you will help and support her. Send her a self addressed stamped envelope.

If it helps you, my dd's relatives were very lazy post seperation, seemed to think that travelling to see the kids was beneath them and they were the royal family that we had to visit. My kids were upset about a lot of things and had no interest at first after their family broke apart and they got no nice letters etc from family assuring them they were loved etc. Then presents came, and the kids didn't want to send thankyou cards, they had resentment at the ex's family. Then as time went by the ex's family sent smaller and smaller presents if at all, and the more devalued they made the children, the more the children didn't want to send anything. They often rip cards up and throw the rubbish gifts away now. The relatives are too lazy to visit and the kids feel rejected.

Poor communication between the ex's family and the children, they are the adults they should make the effort with hurt children. I took advice from a child psychologist and I was advised as the resident parent to make the ex's family do the running, and if they didn't then the kids would be better off without people like that in their lives. I stopped making an effort and all contact stopped, they were lazy people, their loss.

Has your sis spoken to ex about this? can't she try to get him to encourage dd to speak on the phone at least? What does he say when she approaches him?

Kids aren't always blanket innocent you know. some kids can come up with some extremely manipulative behaviour, just like adults can. They can spot a weakness in a flash and they can use it. This idea that kids are always innocent, a blank innocent slate, is unrealistic imo. It is naive.

a 12yo can be more than capable of manipulating a situation for all its worth. BUT we are the adults and it is paramount that we act like adults. It is vital that any power-play by a manipualtive child is seen to fail (even if we are dying inside). I didn't go off abroad to play a game with my dd ffs. She had made it brutally clear she wanted me out of her life... and so, half dead, I carried on with my life. It was hell and I wanted to die but, get this: I carried on for me (what use was I to either of us dead?) AND it would have been very damaging for her to believe she had the power to destroy my life.

yy a child who does this stuff is distressed - and? Life can be hell for a lot of us, kids no exception. Get real. There are ways to healthily express distress and false power is not it; nor adults fawning around like idiots assuming the child is a poor innocent wee thing who just needs to be lavished with love at every turn. 'Darling I'm here for you whenever you want' is not always the answer in every situation.

back to the OP. her father moving out her stuff lock stock looks suspicious to me. I wonder who taught her to play power games?

Why play power games with kids at all? Just behave in an adult straight forward way, with straightforward language and behaviour? I don't understand why people play games with hurt children in such situations either?

If a child is that manipulative and able to power play games at 12, I would be asking myself where they saw such behaviour and learned such behaviour and games and look there for the solution for family problems as that is probably where they started.

Sophie, I suggest you make another trip to the child pschologists to get some fine-tuning on your views.

I spoke to her yesterday she has become a family friend actually. I can pass her details on to anyone via pm if they want, I highly recomend her, she is private. She has really helped us help ourselves as a family.

Oh that's good then. She's obviously done a good job if the kids are ripping up cards and binning crap presents from their relatives.

Well my children speak to me, they live with me, they choose to live with me, they enjoy living with me, they tell me if they are upset with me, we manage to communicate so much better, communication was very poor between us a while back, it took a lot of work to get good communication going between us. I find that the better we have communicated and the better the children are at communicating with their friends when there are issues, which has in turn made them happier in all aspects of their life.

Being angry at someone is a perfectly acceptable feeling to have, anger is an emotion that lots of people don't manage very well, anger dealt with quickly and not harming anyone should not be a problem, binning something that is not wanted is not harming the children or the person who sent it.

I am sure ex's family have great idea's about what happens to their gifts, conspiracy theory's etc, you see they don't communicate or visit the children as they are too lazy, and the they probably don't want to know the truth, so much easier to sit around the table with the family inventing reasons than to get in the car and drive to visit and have a conversation and be willing to find out.

sophie it is a shame that members of your DCs family chose not to make more effort, and understandable that the DCs are angry as a result.

I know how hard it is to compensate for other adults failings - I often think it would be better if my DD knew the truth, but she does benefit from continued contact with wider family members, so I continue to initiate and support it, despite their failings
Perhaps one day, you'll be able to do the same for your DCs?

It was a case of being truthfull with the children and for them to know the reality of a situation and grieve for the reality now. The psychologist found the children were building fantasy figures of their Dad and his family.

The children would see their wider family, the wider family would have to work very hard for a relationship. I suspect the wider family have not got it in them to work hard for a relationship and accept their failings, I would love them to prove me wrong.

Ah, sorry - I misunderstood - I thought that your ex family were still in contact but only if you made the effort; if they're refusing to speak/see the DCs, but sending gifts, then it's not surprising that the DCs are conflicted!

Well my side of the story is that I invited them to many events after the seperation, they did come to visit. They have family very close by where we live, so it is no skin off their nose to visit the children at the same time.

Now before seperation, they visited on Christmas Day the close by relatives and were long term planned to visit us after to eat their Christmas Day meal with us and my extended family. They were late so the ex rang them, as we were about to dish up, they had decided to not visit after all and were on the motorway home.

That is the sort of people we are dealing with here. They would never admit they would have left us with a burnt and cold Christmas Dinner and no phone call, or that they let us down. Their story at the time was that they were tired and just wanted their own bed and that the ex and I understood how tired they were.

So these people don't want to tag the children on to a visit they make to other relatives near by, and goodness knows what their story is to people, I very much dout it casts them in a bad light.

The exmil has three other children who divorced before my ex and I divorced, and I heard the way she spoke about the grandchildren's other parent who was not her child infront of the chidren and I heard her gloat about how she devalued the money she spent on their gifts to "let them know how little she thought of them". When the gifts to my children were financially downgraded I knew exactly what she was telling them and me. They were very wealthy people, with several properties and good pensions. They sent a flannel for Christmas one year, the children were used to very extravagant gifts in the psat, they knew without me saying anything what that gift was all about. You can just imagine it the package came, they had to have it under the tree for weeks and then they open it up, all nicely packaged to get a flannel. It was binned.

Another occasion when a card was ripped up was recently one child's birthday was ignored no card etc, the next child's birthday was acknowledged, a card was sent, no name in the card in the address section, just the names of the grandparents, no love from or anything like that just their names. The child who got the card ripped it up in front of the other child who's birthday had been ignored and binned it, no more was discussed about the card. I thought that was appropriate behaviour and lovely sibling solidarity.