How do you know when your relationship is over?

[Netcurtainstwitching]

Yes unhappy with dh

I feel like I'm going crazy. Which isn't good...

I don't know where to start.

Currently I am pissed off as:
a) he said we could move when dd is 4, he is clearly now moving the goalposts for this one. I am desparate for a house with a garden, the dc want a garden. Dh does not like gardens. So we don't move

b) we have money, heaps of money, enough to get above house. I get £1300 into my bank acct every month. No mortgage but food, ALL household bills, pets insurance, everything comes out of that. He does not like to give extra. And no I don't have access to the savings, bar his card (no pin) which I have used to pay for a holiday (online) for me and the dc . I have overspent but have had 3 big birthdays to pay for and still recovering from xmas (in may! am I unusual?)

c) he will not come on above holiday, 4 days it is. It will be too stressful with the dc (2 and 5) .

d) He wont go for meals out anywhere but two cafe's as food is too salty in any italian, indian whatever...

e) dh had a long discussion the other day with me about my housework (or lack of). House cluttered. He will not help as its too chaotic. Other housewives manage. May I say here he has been self employed in parents business since age of 12. He has never experienced the outer world...I use to hear all sorts working in various offices, different opinions/thoughts/ideas...he spends all day alone or with his father or mother or sister or aunt. I keep my distance from them, their mad as a box of frogs. But he works with them every day.

f) housework. Like I said, he says its too chaotic to do anything. He believes that children can wear one outfit a week (he has had dd1 in one outfit for two weeks before...he seems to not see the DIRT there is on clothes...). That we should halve the amount of clothes we have. That I make everything 10 times as hard as I need too and let the children distract me. I should just shut them in a room till I've finished what I'm doing. If he was looking after the house and dc he would halve the amount of work "guarenteed". He does NOTHING round the house. Not take bins out, no diy (and there is so much to do...he expects me to do it), no washing up (he rinses his and dc dishes on a morning but that is without soap), no washing clothes...

g) sex. He wants it everyday, if not a few times a week. Feeling as I do above I dont want to have sex with someone who doesn't give a monkeys thank you very much. So in the last year I've started refusing. All the time. We often sleep in separate beds.

h) (can I get throught the alphabet? Lets try...) Lack of affection/empathy. Nothing to say on this, sums it up. None. Unless it involves groping. Refer g)

i) never, ever leaves work early to surprise me, or do family things...he's self employed he CAN find the time for bike rides but not get home early. In fact he never takes holidays.

Positives
a) gets dc up and dressed and breakfasted
b) (after 2 years not sleeping and me looking after her and becoming a complete wreck) dc2 now sleeps through the night and he gets up to her if she wakes
c) takes dc on walks and to cafe once a week, reads books to them, does bedtime stories
d) He has an amazing body for his age
e) I would find him sexually attractive again if I could sort out long list above. He is still attractive. But he does have a belief that women want it etc but he does agree drunk ladies are fair game I put him straight on that one and he knows where I stand on that...and that is something that crosses my mind when we have sex. He seems to have a real male view of the world...bit footballery if you know what I mean...he keeps a cap on it, but I know its under the surface.
f) he is the childrens father. I don't want them to lose their daddy. :( :( :( I know from when we separated before he said he would stop working so I could not claim anything from him. He also refused to see dc on a frequent basis as "other fathers I know don't" and he "didn't want to get their hopes up" this was said after we got back together and in a discussing other people we know who split up kind of way...
g) he says he loves me...or did when we got back together...first time he said it. Wants all the lovey dovey stuff and has assured me for the last 8 years how affectionate he is...I've just never seen it. Apparently he's had is heart broken too many times and he can't face it again. Not even for his wife apparently, who he has had dc with.

I'm so sorry that this is so long but I've talked myself calm again...and for the record the house is NOT cluttered, you can see ALL the bedrooms floors, and ALL of the living room floor...we have no shelves as he doesn't want screw holes in the walls in fact no pictures on the walls either...no nails allowed...

And before I sign off...yes I have discussed most of the above with him...we just go round in circles. He is Mr Perfect and his way is the only way. ANd he is Mr Always Right...

Can I just scream now? Or cry...or both....sometimes I do see a peek of what he could be like then it goes away again when we start discussing things again...completely fruitless...

Thank you so much for reading so far....someone please help...

Sorry all kinds of red flags all over this, the more I read the more it completely shuts me up. Speak to women's aid who know all about how abusers (rather than men/women) burn/damage possessions and re-educate their victims to tolerate all kinds of abuses as normal.

*shits me up!

Feeling safe is not the same as being safe.

And I'm not saying leave the bastard. This must be done exceptionally carefully, you need to re-educate yourself a little first.

How are things Net? A few days down the line, id DH behaving?

Mine has been quite good, I do have to spell out what I need him to do, but he has been willing. Although he got knocked off his motorbike last night so will be even more of a 3rd child for me for a while. He is ok, just a bit battered and bruised so drugged up and in bed resting!

is

Thanks for your concern Offred :)

Hi Golden :) He's doing well. Insisting on sitting on sofa together and that I put the laptop down. He's made a point that I am stand offish so he is clearly doing his best to over come that. I have asked my friend to babysit for us one night so we can go out on the town as a couple, first time in over 6 years! So that should be fun. Think it will be not next sat but one after. I am looking forward to it! But it is hard work, I've had so many years of no affection, its hard to accept, but I'm giving it time. He is working for the relationship (finally! in an acceptable way) and I'm doing what I feel able to do. He's even emptied the bin!

Sorry to hear bout your dh being knocked off his bike. Yes will be hard work for a while poor you!! Get your sympathy here if he is getting too much! At least he is being willing to help, that's half the battle, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Dh seems willing at the moment. I think we need medals for putting up with 'em! But it is our choice and I want to either get to the stage I am happy with him as my life partner (children aside) or if I'm still not happy, splitting up . Are you thinking along the same lines?

take care xx

that's quite a step forward net! Doing it a bit at a time and if it doesn't work then thinking about sounds a way forward. Do be careful though. I suspect he is abusive and I worry you'll not be safe when you start asserting yourself a bit.

Nets my father has aspergers and he used to burn my stuff! I remember coming home from uni to find loads of my stuff missing only to be told that he'd burn it, so strange. When my mother died he pulled up and burnt the carpets (?!)

Anyway, he sounds a lot like my dad in other ways too - I know mum found him, um, demanding, iykwim, plus he as this bizarre obsession with 'clutter' as he calls it (or 'my family's things' as I like to think of it). He does love us but he can't tell us really. Oh, and his thing about 'clutter' is such that even if HE has bought something he loves, two or three months later he'll give it to us as he is 'uncluttering'. I think that 'things' just make him really unhappy - he's constantly looking for order and structure.

Good luck with everything, I hope you're ok, it all sounds utterly exhausting.

knitknack I really don't like the burning of stuff, but how did you feel about it? And his other 'quirks'? I have not told the children where their things have gone and tbh they have never asked after it!! So they are unaware. As an adult I can say that it makes me furious, but I'm looking at it as Aspergers and his need for order. The clutter thing drives both dh and me mad but in different ways. Got to go, refereeing children!!

And actually having re read (dc out with dad now so can think straight!!)

'clutter' as he calls it (or 'my family's things' as I like to think of it).'

Totally agree. He has no sentiment at all. He is now trying to compromise his need for order to allow for kids stuff ie toys, that sort of thing... he is very uncomfortable with it. I can see he is struggling, but he 'knows' that this is important. I still think I need to impress on him how important.

For my part in all this (I'm no innocent bystander!) I do keep broken toys at times, lots of tat from comics (that breaks as soon as you look at it) hair bobbles, theres used tissues here and there, old unused dog bedding going mouldy in back room (in bin bag now) lots of stuff in cupboards that needs to go, ie flower bulbs about 5 years old, stacks of plastic pots I don't use, goldfish paraphinalia, not had a fish for 18 months! And no intention of another one either! Piles and piles of the childrens drawings about 3 years worth and they draw every day, paperwork on kitchen surfaces, pile of old childrens clothing in our room that I want to keep, etc etc etc, I could go on and with his need for order, and my keeping of, yes alot of stuff is rubbish, we're clashing. So I do need to do as I say and get rid of stuff. And clean.... He has got incrediably frustrated and desparate over the years and when he talked about it all the other day is face just looked ravaged (sp) and desperate and at verge of tears.

And he is still being affectionate, finding that a bit easier today as its become consistent over the last week, he's not just backed off again.

Anyway enough typing on here, going to hoover living room floor (looks like we've had a herd of long haired yaks through it) and then take dogs for a short walk, gardening, then I'm going to get a bin bag, give away box, find a home box and do half an hour of tidying! And put away that pile of baby clothes in our room!!

Please tell me more of your dad if you can and your childhood. If that is okay. Has your dad ever been diagnosed with Aspergers? How did you find out? How could things have been made easier? etc :) anything you feel able to tell me would be nice.

Golden how is the invalid? :) for you!

Gosh - I can try! Tbh I still struggle to make sense of a lot of my childhood - and that has a lot to do with how CONFUSING is was. It wasn't all bad, but it was 'odd' and my bro and I always knew that something wasn't quite 'normal' ( whatever that is!). I will say that I have a lovely time with Dad now - I've just taken him out for a pub lunch in fact!

My Dad was amazing when we were small - lots of outdoors/wildlife type things, making fires etc... But as we got to 10-11 and started to recognise obsessions etc and question them it all unravelled a bit and he totally withdrew and would spend all his time either out walking or upstairs in bed reading, and other than yelling/throwing things when the house was 'cluttered' we didn't communicate. I know my mum found it very hard, I remember her having a breakdown at one point. She died quite young so I've never been able to discuss it all which would have really helped, but I do remember her saying that she thought she's been one of his obsessions until something else came along and she didn't even get birthday cards etc (I have no memory of him ever getting her anything, or taking her anywhere).

Your dh sounds great with the kids - do they get lots of cuddles?

To answer your question no dad doesn't have a diagnosis but it was he himself who first brought up the idea that he might have it and everyone who knows him agrees it's highly likely. He's even described his own frustration at some of his ticks/obsessions which mean that he has to take the same walk everyday, for example, and therefore can't go off down an interesting new walk he's discovered - even if he REALLY wants to.

I was FURIOUS when he burnt stuff - he even gave away mum's possessions to various women in his village before I could rescue anything, so I have nothing but some woman he no longer knows has!! I can still get very cross if I go down that train of thought so I don't! I KNOW it's just that same old disregard for sentiment and other's feelings, I've learnt to live with the aspergers and not seek the type of relationship one would normally have with a parent - and that works really well and we rub along really nicely and pleasantly!

I do think that you could both try to meet each other - if you think your dh COULD be on the spectrum (and I suspect my dad is very very mild) then if you can find it in your heart to understand how very unhappy 'clutter' makes him then you could declutter areas of your house together (as I get older I'm starting to enjoy having a good clear out! It's amaxing how calming space can be). Recognising that dad is the way he is for a reason released all my compassion and I'm no longer angered or irritated by him... It may be that with help you could do the same - there really is no point trying to chage someone with aspergers!!

It may be however that you just cant find a compromise and in that case I think as long as you are aware of all the facts (would he see his gp about it?) you would be able to break knowing that living life in the way that compromisation would entail would be ŵrong for you (and the fore your dc's)

Sorry if that's a ramble, I find it really hard typing on this iPad!

Thank you so muc for that knitknack. Tick the outdoor walks/wildlife making fires!!! Exactly the same here!!!!

I'm so sorry about your mum, and you never getting answers, must be hard at times and her things been given away :(

Dh cuddles dc when they go up for a cuddle, he does not go to them and give them a cuddle. They often snuggle up together in front of tv/read books. More so than with me (I'm too busy running my arse off doing housework, would rather be with dc...(unless I'm mumsnetting))

Dh does do birthday/anniversary cards, presents, always just off the mark.

My father sounds a bit like your dad too. He used to do quite a bit with us until we got older, then he just hid in his study. Would go to pubs by himself (no friends), walks alone etc. Raging temper if disturbed.

Dh has to have the routine thing, clouds of stress gather if routine changes, ie unexpected meal out. Not a treat for him, as it is for me (no washing up!!) its stressful as it is his day out of order. We always visit the same places, for years, we get to know, or rather I get to know as I talk to people, the people working there. If you introduce something new, and he loves it, he will go again and again and again. Does not like going far on holiday, has to be within an hour's travelling distance. Ideal place in friends field (no conveniences, he wants to know why I cannot just go by hedge like him )

I can understand about the burning thing and getting rid of possesions, I too try not to think of it!! Esp as I've found a toy gone from dc2 bday that we did not have chance to play with, from a good friend. Friend knows about the burning but too mortified to tell her about the game :(

I think this week (when dc back at school) I will get back to that aspergers site and find out more. I think at the moment his obcession is lots of affection for me and I'm finding it sufforcating, I feel like I'm being difficult. But 8 odd years of nothing then a week so far of long kisses/snogs/hugs hello and goodbye, I'm used to a dry peck on the lips 3 times a day max and no hugging. Tis too much! He is trying though, and he's still doing the washing up (maybe he could channel snogging energy into washing down walls and polishing surfaces??).

Whenever I do look at aspergers sites it always has a related section for partners, all about the special understanding asperger partners need. I find it makes me angry :( why should I have to live my life in this way to accomodate his needs? What about mine? I've had my needs on a back shelf with partners since 16 and quite frankly being 'there' for someone and 'understanding' sucks. Sorry but I've been there too often and given everything and never, ever had a partner return the thought. Not so much as a bunch of flowers or a card (okay harking back 18 years now...!!). I really need to get a grip on this 'looking after' someone complex. I'm rambling now...

Thanks again knitknack any more thoughts/memories please post :) it has helped to read your experience. And sorry about rambling, just trying to make sense of my feelings...right now I could not give a rats arse (apologies to any rats offended)

I recognise the rambling/trying to make sense of feelings/thoughts thing - its so very hard to articulate! Your point about YOUR needs is incredibly valid and if I could go back in time I'd certainly be trying to get my mum to see that she DID in fact have choices, especially since dad was so intractable and notwithstanding hat she had imagined for herself. The routines thing is SO familiar - that sinking feeling when what could be a lovely unexpected surprise (say a meal out) is just a stressful pain in the neck because it conflicts with routine - I'll as the same to you as I would have said to mum - you do have a choice! But of course you know that and anyway since when were choices easy?!

My thoughts are with you!

Honestly I'm not illiterate it's this stupid iPad, I can't communicate with it! :)

Thanks Knitknack (sure your not illiterate ).

God yes the sinking feeling, I have had that everytime he comes home since always, knowing that whatever fun stuff you have planned for kids has to go out of the window as the stress clouds will gather over his head. I just don't feel we can be spontaneous, not even an unexpected late night. Last night dc2 and I overran 7pm on our dvd, by all of 5 minutes...it was made clear it was a bit of a problem, not a word said...we were in the way, now was adult time, by 5 minutes!!

He's told me again the children need more disapline and more individual time. I just dispair. They are very well behaved out and about and are cheeky like all children are at home, generally good. And more individual time just makes me feel guilty!!

Would you have understood if your mother left your father?

Thanks for the 'choices never easy'...my point exactly! I'm not ready to move on till we have both made an effort. Dh is making an effort and things could become more livable... still want to give it a good go first.

On another note feeling very arsy as time of month coming and I get extra grumpy about intrusion on my personal space, and very irritable. Must tell dh in case I discourage his improving behaviour.

I really don't know if I can do this, but must try, feel very much I am trying for the children and dh rather than me. And as I said I have needs. But if I can make it work then it would be good for me as well. I just feel its the end of the road. I like what someone said further up about the end of a relationship being like the end of university.

Just feels like a big scary world without anyone to share it with (ie a partner). I have no contact with family, so no one to lean on. I do have friends who have offered support. I know I am very independant, I may spend too much (according to dh) but I have all direct debits in my name, deal with all the finance stuff, have arranged mortgages before, deal with the car stuff. I am scared of getting a job again. Been bullied in a few jobs before, and I am so slow at stuff, get distracted so easily I don't think anyone should employ me!

Big ramble again, but helps to put my thoughts down...

Sorry I seem to have been awol for a week!

How is it all going Net?

Thanks for the DH is doing really well. He's off his crutches and went back to work quickly so I am very proud of him for not being useless and pathetic for weeks!

We had a really good chat a few nights ago, which has made a real difference. He started it with "Sometimes I don't think you love me anymore and that I am just a nuisance to you", to which I replied "I do love you, but it is hard work being your wife". He has admitted he could improve on a number of things and will try not to complain about other peoples driving and the messy house, and instead if I've not managed to brush the floor he can find the brush and do it himself. I in return have to try to remember to ask him how is day has been and appreciate how hard he works. Which I think I can do!

He also said how he really appreciates what I do do, and that our children are so well rounded and behave due to my input with them and me taking them out to play groups etc. Which was lovely to hear as I have only had negative jibes for a long time now.

So lets see how it goes, it's exactly as you say ... I want to either get to the stage I am happy with him as my life partner (children aside) or if I'm still not happy, splitting up

Good to hear from you Golden

Glad he is listening and making an effort to pull his weight :) he said some nice things there.

Not so good here. Got the Lundy Bancroft book, choked on my tea at one point it was so accurate. Its got me looking at his behaviour with fresh eyes. He is abusive. I don't want to believe it, but I am scared of him. I hide the book and get it out as soon as he leaves the house and put it away a few mins before I know he's back. I'm feeling shaky having read about his behaviour in this book, its just like with my family and reading books with their behaviour in. He threatened to hit me about 18 months ago, he has said he believes its okay to hit a woman if she speaks to you disrespectfully or shouts at you, he's not said it since the threatened hitting but its still there, the belief that its okay to have sex with someone if they come back to yours drunk, I laughed it all off, have for years, but I think now I believe he actually means it. A couple of nights ago at the kitchen table I could sense he was angry, never said anything, just the 'grey cloud' around him, I actually got scared of what was to come, not violence but another incident where he was going to swear about the state of the house. And the house was in a state, had been out with dc2 all day so not tidied. So as soon as tea was finished I shot up and started on the dishes and that seemed to avert his mood. But it should not have been there in the first place. Maybe I imagined it? I keep thinking of ringing the hotlines but Its always at the last minute before pick up time and I think if I start talking I won't be able to stop or stop crying.

What if I am imagining this or I am exagerating? But I dare not leave the house to go away with dc again in case he burns things again. That's not normal. I'm scared to leave. What if he tries for custody of dc? I don't think he would. He doesn't look after them as carefully as I do (imo), he won't do my idea of parenting, only his own, so much for us negotiating it. I worry that financially he will cut us off, that he will come round to the house banging onthe door. He was angry and disbelieving when we last separated that I would get the house, funny how he was so happy and lovey dovey with me, but mad about me and our children having the house. Wasn't happy then. Selfish git. And wanting to quit his job, what about dc? I'm not a bloody money grabber, he knows this, he even told the solicitor (apparently) taht I'm not like that but he still doesn't want me 'gaining' from a divorce.

I'm just so tired of living under a cloud (caused by my lack of housework). Of the same routine day in and day out. How he treats dc when they don't do as they are told (intimidating, v rarely smacks), or occasionally humiliating. I know I can shout at them and it is wrong, and I know a lot of the anger is fear of his disaproval of their behaviour and what I'm doing. Even when he's not around.

I want to defend him to everyone, but reading the book it describes what I'm doing accurately, and how I say what a good father he is (bar the above) and how he can do nice things/say nice things.

I had better go, he'll be back soon, for another exciting saturday :(

I think I need anti depressants too, suspect its a long standing thing, not caused by him but not helped either.

What a mess.

Anyway must pull myself together. Will go back to book later, read some more and try to make sense of it all. And what I'm going to do. I need to snap out of la la land.

Hope your day goes well Golden sorry for ramble. May help too look back in a year and remind myself of these things... :)

Hello Netcurtain the place for those to whom and for whom Lundy speaks is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1488894-Support-thread-for-those-in-Emotionally-Abusive-relationships-Number-9
if you feel like joining us...

He may well have AS - I believe me, ex, DF, and FIL had it. During their childhood people with AS hoover up the Right Thing to Do in many cases, if they are hoovering up abuse they don't realise. But just because there is a possible explanation, that is no reason to go on living with it! Plus some ordinary AS things can be v hard to live with - DF was not abusive, but DM left him when she was 55.

My ex is definitely abusive, and I am still untangling things even though we were divorced earlier in the year. As in your case, the housework was major for me (he wouldn't help, but unlike you doesn't care if he lives in an unhygienic mess), but neither would he work enough to earn a living.

*yours (not you)

Nice things said, but they seem to then be outnumbered by inconsistency and aggression. Maybe I should get a copy of Lundy's book too. Which one have you got Net?

DH did really well for a few days, then a few times said "I'm not complaining, but..." WELL IT CERTAINLY SOUNDS LIKE COMPLAINING TO ME!! I don't know....he does piss me off!

You are more than welcome to ramble Net, it's good for you to get it all out and straightened out in your head.

Again I haven't been on for a week, I tend to only check MN at work and only work Thurs and Fri, I think this is because I know DH isn't going to read over my shoulder or check on the history of the computer (I don't know if he does this or not, but that's all I'd need)

How is it all this week?

Hi Golden :) Lundy's book is VERY good 'why do they do that' angry and controlling men by Lundy Bancroft. To sum up, he asked if I wanted to separate last night and I said yes. Lundy's book helped to trigger it all off really. Thank you for checking on me so much, you have helped more than you know in the last few weeks :) .

So a bit wobbly today but coping, h gone to find a rented house today which is a good start, at least he is going. He is understandably bitter abotu it as he wanted to continue to try and work things out whereas I have just had it with him. I do feel symathetic to his feelings but I've been saying things for years and hes not taken action, I summed up all the things he is doing now as 'too little too late'. I think mentally I was gone years ago.

Anyway I'm on the emotionally abused #9 thread now so lots of the details there...I've rambled a lot more! But it does help to get it out. Have you corrected your dh when he does the 'i'm not complaining BUT'...?

Wow, I hope you are alright. You have been helping me too! Our relationships sound sooooo similar. I have been thinking too little too late too. I am thinking I want it all to work out but in reality I'm not sure the bad habbits can be broken now and I am so fed up. Keep thinking when the best time to have that conversation would be. I am a little bit jealous of you now h is moving out, I do hope he doesn't make it harder than it has to be for you all.

I did correct him on not complaining, not that it makes one bit of difference. My opinions are worthless.