How do you know when your relationship is over?

[Netcurtainstwitching]

Yes unhappy with dh

I feel like I'm going crazy. Which isn't good...

I don't know where to start.

Currently I am pissed off as:
a) he said we could move when dd is 4, he is clearly now moving the goalposts for this one. I am desparate for a house with a garden, the dc want a garden. Dh does not like gardens. So we don't move

b) we have money, heaps of money, enough to get above house. I get £1300 into my bank acct every month. No mortgage but food, ALL household bills, pets insurance, everything comes out of that. He does not like to give extra. And no I don't have access to the savings, bar his card (no pin) which I have used to pay for a holiday (online) for me and the dc . I have overspent but have had 3 big birthdays to pay for and still recovering from xmas (in may! am I unusual?)

c) he will not come on above holiday, 4 days it is. It will be too stressful with the dc (2 and 5) .

d) He wont go for meals out anywhere but two cafe's as food is too salty in any italian, indian whatever...

e) dh had a long discussion the other day with me about my housework (or lack of). House cluttered. He will not help as its too chaotic. Other housewives manage. May I say here he has been self employed in parents business since age of 12. He has never experienced the outer world...I use to hear all sorts working in various offices, different opinions/thoughts/ideas...he spends all day alone or with his father or mother or sister or aunt. I keep my distance from them, their mad as a box of frogs. But he works with them every day.

f) housework. Like I said, he says its too chaotic to do anything. He believes that children can wear one outfit a week (he has had dd1 in one outfit for two weeks before...he seems to not see the DIRT there is on clothes...). That we should halve the amount of clothes we have. That I make everything 10 times as hard as I need too and let the children distract me. I should just shut them in a room till I've finished what I'm doing. If he was looking after the house and dc he would halve the amount of work "guarenteed". He does NOTHING round the house. Not take bins out, no diy (and there is so much to do...he expects me to do it), no washing up (he rinses his and dc dishes on a morning but that is without soap), no washing clothes...

g) sex. He wants it everyday, if not a few times a week. Feeling as I do above I dont want to have sex with someone who doesn't give a monkeys thank you very much. So in the last year I've started refusing. All the time. We often sleep in separate beds.

h) (can I get throught the alphabet? Lets try...) Lack of affection/empathy. Nothing to say on this, sums it up. None. Unless it involves groping. Refer g)

i) never, ever leaves work early to surprise me, or do family things...he's self employed he CAN find the time for bike rides but not get home early. In fact he never takes holidays.

Positives
a) gets dc up and dressed and breakfasted
b) (after 2 years not sleeping and me looking after her and becoming a complete wreck) dc2 now sleeps through the night and he gets up to her if she wakes
c) takes dc on walks and to cafe once a week, reads books to them, does bedtime stories
d) He has an amazing body for his age
e) I would find him sexually attractive again if I could sort out long list above. He is still attractive. But he does have a belief that women want it etc but he does agree drunk ladies are fair game I put him straight on that one and he knows where I stand on that...and that is something that crosses my mind when we have sex. He seems to have a real male view of the world...bit footballery if you know what I mean...he keeps a cap on it, but I know its under the surface.
f) he is the childrens father. I don't want them to lose their daddy. :( :( :( I know from when we separated before he said he would stop working so I could not claim anything from him. He also refused to see dc on a frequent basis as "other fathers I know don't" and he "didn't want to get their hopes up" this was said after we got back together and in a discussing other people we know who split up kind of way...
g) he says he loves me...or did when we got back together...first time he said it. Wants all the lovey dovey stuff and has assured me for the last 8 years how affectionate he is...I've just never seen it. Apparently he's had is heart broken too many times and he can't face it again. Not even for his wife apparently, who he has had dc with.

I'm so sorry that this is so long but I've talked myself calm again...and for the record the house is NOT cluttered, you can see ALL the bedrooms floors, and ALL of the living room floor...we have no shelves as he doesn't want screw holes in the walls in fact no pictures on the walls either...no nails allowed...

And before I sign off...yes I have discussed most of the above with him...we just go round in circles. He is Mr Perfect and his way is the only way. ANd he is Mr Always Right...

Can I just scream now? Or cry...or both....sometimes I do see a peek of what he could be like then it goes away again when we start discussing things again...completely fruitless...

Thank you so much for reading so far....someone please help...

Come and sit in my compartment....it's very messy, colourful and cozy. Lots of toys and fingerprints.

Feckthis sounds good!

Financially how do I manage? I have v little savings of my own.

Do I break up with him then ask to continue financial arrangement, if he does not then go on benefits. How long do they take to set up and how much? Who does the chasing of fathers now? What would happen if he quit his job? Would he be forced to get a new one? His parents could easily support him. got to go again

Those are all qusetions you can ask CAB. Do.

Take advice from professionals such as CAB, the website entitledto.com, a free hapf hour with a solicitor (ring round in your area to find one) and Women's Aid

why do you keep dashing off, btw ?

Thanks Hot and Any.

I keep dashing off when he's around! He has no screen manners if I'm sat typing he will read whats on screen if he has nothing better to do...so I come to kitchen to make tea or whatever and type in privacy...

Will check out those places...he's being very charming this evening but could be because I've been out with dc's for an hour after his work finishes. Talked to friend today as well, she's never got him and neither has her dh...both think he's miserable and not a family man...been thinking of ways to access savings...I think I could but not sure how legal will look at those websites first and get my thoughts together...

Thanks for posting...I may just do this. Freedom one day.

my DH would never dream of reading over my shoulder as I type...that isn't normal, it is controlling and reinforcing to you that your thoughts and words have no importance outside of how they relate to him

Any I do see it as very rude.

Just found out when he did the school run the other day he was friendly and sociable to the other mothers. I now feel like its me causing him to be miserable. If only I was different, kept house in good order, had tea ready on time and didn't complain to him then he would be in a better temper with me. But that's falling into the emotional abuse trap...been googling it and beginning to believe now.

I feel jealous (don't like to admit to that) that other women have good husbands that help them out and are friendly and sociable...the reason I don't is because I chose wrong. I feel a need to work harder to get his approval and affection (and help with housework), but that won't happen because nothing I do is good enough and never will be.

Anyway feelings aside I'm making an action plan...I'm going to live with the situation a bit longer so I can get everything in place. I need to treat this like moving house or any other major event requiring finances etc. I need to get appropriate paperwork in place. I have a few concerns I will need to address with a solicitor?
a) I'm pretty sure the house is in joint names. I'm guessing he will refuse to sell. I need to find a way around this one.
b) Money, they get cash in hand, something he will not declare. Do I mention this to solicitor? or will it mean less money in long term for me and girls and I don't want to piss off his family
c) How do I get to see a solicitor without him finding out via the grapevine? Going to have to find one in a nearby city which means a lot of travel time. Or will they communicate by phone instead of face to face? Paperwork in post?
d) I need money to live on, how long will the haggling go on for? Somehow I need him to put me back on joint acct. Feel bad as there is an ulterior motive to it but that money is rightfully mine too and I have every right to have ready access too it. To think he once proudly told his mates that I didn't over spend as I had a set amount each month.

a) courts can order the sale of a house
b) of course you mention this to the solicitor, with as much detail as you know
c) how would he find out? Do he and his pals hobnob with solicitors? It's unlikely. Just go see a local one. Recommended, if poss.
d) long. Joint accounts are not a good idea during separation anyway (either party can empty it out). You will be entitled to benefits and payments from him for child maintenance: find out how much from CAB.

I am watching this thread also looking for advice.

Our situations are similar and I have been fed up with DH for a while now, he does naff all around the house and feels that is his right because he works hard (which he does when at work) and I don't even though I have a part time job some self employed work and 2 dc (3yrs and 22m). I look after kids by myself bar their bath which DH does as he wants one so they all get in together and I then go in and get them out dried and dressed!

Wondering if it is good enough to stay or bad enough to go.

Hot thank you. I live in a local place...everyone knows everyone...grapevine and all that. We did have a joint acct last time and emptied it myself, well left him enough to live on for a few months. Hence I am tempted to get one again and make a surprise move. I can't be worse off than I am now. Though I do expect he will refuse to make meeting to do it. I'm tempted to give him another chance, but that would make it the 3rd chance he's had . He did talk to me the other week about problems in our relationship. When I say problems I mean he talked about lack of sex and how it could not continue and was not normal. We needed more time off together to go for meals and need to sleep in same bed again and make out even if we don't have sex on a regular basis. Its always about lack of sex. Never about 'what is really wrong?' 'why do look upset and grumpy so often?' Bloody sex. I tell you if i never have sex again it will be too bloody soon.

Golden My dh works hard too! Same here with the good enough to stay/go. But I just feel like I'm going mad with it all so I'm guessing that is a sign to go! I can't justify myself to him...it will never be good enough. I think I may move across to here and here is giving some good advice.

What else does he do (or not do may be the shorter list :) )

I think he knows I am fed up with his lack of input as yesterday when I got home he had attempted to cook dinner, something he would normally wait for me to walk in the door and ask what we were having.
He'd put chips and burgers in the oven and got a tin of beans and eggs out ready (his favorite and the only type of meal he has cooked in probably 3 years). Then asked me just to check the oven and just to turn the frying pan on as he was getting changed out of work gear. So I did and because my Mum was bringing kids home in 2 mins and they would be hungry I then cooked eggs, heated up beans, took chips and burgers out of the oven, got drinks and plated it up and put it on the table for him to tell my Mum and kids (who saw me in the kitchen doing all of the above) that Daddy cooked dinner tonight!

Net I have also looked at those links, thanks.

He's a moaner...

My lack of Housework (apparently our house is a state....it's really not!)
No food that he wants in the house
I am too tired because I can't handle it all and he would do a much better job if roles were reversed
No money (there we differ as have little and I try to stay in control of what we do have as Hubby would just spend it all)
Not enough sex
When he complains about ailments I don't care enough - as I don't pat his head and say 'there there you poor thing that must be so terrible for you'

Bloody cheek claiming he had cooked tea!

A moaner does sound fun

Does he do any housework? Does he do the food shopping?

Lack of housework and him doing a better job....oh yes. And not enough sex...wonder why that is?

Just read this, a link in the Support thread here dh does not tick all boxes but does tick enough for him to be a loser. This just all seems unreal I'm considering this. Going on hols next wk, without the misrable git, going with a friend who is helpful, kind, considerate and likes spending time with the dc...so should be a good trip! Dreadfully nervous about driving there, but another mate has offered her sat nav to help me.

I do like the advise on 'the loser' thread about being boring. I fully intend too. I'm going to be compliant and end up being two faced :( :( :( but I have to secure the dc's finances because he's already threatened to cut us off financially. I need to be fully prepared this time. I felt so unprepared last time. And scared of going it alone and having two small children to look after by myself...I can do it, I did do it for a while, I can do it again. I just feel like wilting at all there is to do...and feel nervous at being found out. ANd this time I'm not going to feel sorry for him and go back!!! He's had 9 years to be loving and affectionate and do housework and just be a normal human being, and not at all in 9 years has he been that. I'm not going to wait round another 9 years to find out it was the same and emotionally devoid as the first 9 years. I feel bad for messing the dc around but last time I went back so we were a family again. I wanted them to have their daddy in the house, not somewhere else or to have two homes. But I cannot continue with him as a role model for a future relationship for them. I don't want them being miserable in 10, 20 years time and then their children being upset because he is a unaffectionate narccssistic (sp!) prat.

And breathe....

What are you thinking of doing?

Hi netcurtains, your dh sounds identical to mine. I saw a solicitor last week and am starting divorce proceedings without him knowing as he refuses to talk about us. I have two dc's and I am bricking it but feel its all thats left to do. I start shaking just thinking about it, I am now as I type but think its risk worth taking and god am I not a gambler! I am new to mumsnet and hope I am on the same page, does dh mean "darling husband"? is there a list of abreviations as just guessing and does OW mean old witch?

LOL (laughing out loud) 'darling' or 'dear' husband, yes. OW generally means 'Other Woman' - but I like 'Old Witch'

Hi hayho

abreviations here

Well done seeing a solicitor...I'm not there yet, worried I will get spotted going in. What age are your dc? I know the shaking well...and feeling sick and lightheaded.

What is your dh like? (dh is dear husband, OW is other woman)

I'm just in la la land at the moment, its the weekend coming up, going on holiday so that to deal with...need to sort out a joint account with him, if I mentally tell myself I'm not going through with this I will be able to do it.

Just read 'codependancy' and I tick many boxes..:( not good...feel like dh has a point being annoyed with me all the time

He does no housework and pops to the shops occassionally and usually just for himself as I haven't bought enough beer and crap that he likes.

My miserable git was supposed to be away working this weekend, which I was looking forward to, but unfortunately he cancelled it so is home to piss me off some more!

I can't read the loser link as work computer is blocking it, but I will have a look at home later.

I have been thinking more and more about ending it. I would like us to be friends though (for all of us not just the children) but don't think he would be very nice about it. I did ask him if he thinks we should separate after an arguement last week but he just brushed it over like I was being silly. We need to talk about it seriously, not sure he can talk without getting wound up though. I am good at writing letters, I feel that way I get all my points across calmly and without him being able to interupt me. Just need to get my thoughts in order first, they seem to be running around out of my control!

Net,

Please stop putting obstacles in your way.

What are the chances though of being spotted?. And even if you were (which is unlikely) it is none of their business as to why you are visiting. If you go to the Solicitors in next town no-one would know.

Seek legal advice asap. La-la land is a place you need to leave!. You do not need to know what the weather is like in that place called denial.

This ought to now be your mantra:-

"He's had 9 years to be loving and affectionate and do housework and just be a normal human being, and not at all in 9 years has he been that. I'm not going to wait round another 9 years to find out it was the same and emotionally devoid as the first 9 years. I feel bad for messing the dc around but last time I went back so we were a family again. I wanted them to have their daddy in the house, not somewhere else or to have two homes. But I cannot continue with him as a role model for a future relationship for them. I don't want them being miserable in 10, 20 years time and then their children being upset because he is a unaffectionate narccssistic (sp!) prat".

You wrote the above.

You've had 9 years of this; you DO NOT want another 9 days of same let alone 9 years.

Would also suggest you read "Codependent No More" written by Melodie Davies.

Hope your holiday goes off okay.

Goldenmama he sounds a catch

If you were happy you would not be thinking of separation? And if it were a healthy relationship (ditto with mine) we would be talking with them about the issues. And neither will listen. We could do this for the rest of our lives. Imagine still being with the miserable gits when they are in their 70's...if their miserable now how bad are they going to be then.

Feel sick at thought of taking action. Found out CAB opens locally on a tuesday morning. May ask my friend who knows about all this to look after dc2 while I go in. Want to get the kitchen roof fixed as well and the leak in the roof. And bulk buy food. Then let him have the money while I manage on benefits. The last time we broke up the house was classed as mine and the money in the bank his for a house of his own. Need to find a local solicitor to speak too, after hol.

Attila I'm coming out of la la land...I just don't like feeling this way. Been for a walk today to mull it all over, its like being in a maze and coming to the same dead end every time. Keep thinking talking things over with him, trying to make him see its in everyone's best interests to make this work. Then I remember I don't love him and never really did. For that reason alone I can't keep up this pretense any longer. Aside from the EA and FA...and him being miserable. Maybe I make him taht way...that's what I think too...maybe he would be happier with someone else who didn't nag and was the perfect stepford housewife....

Goldenmama looks like we're both chasing thoughts round...I want to be on the other side of this looking back...but scared of what I will find there...

Net - Hope you are having a nice peaceful holiday and having tonnes of fun with your DC.

I had a lovely family day (including DH) on Sunday and since that I have had a little talk with my DH about him stepping up and being a little more like the responsible parent I and DC need him to be and for us to have a more equal relationship. He has been doing a fairly good job since, so here's hoping I've got somewhere!

I spoke to a RL friend about it and she is really supportive, although at the end of me telling her we'd had a nice day she said "until the next time", which I of course will be looking out for with eyes wide open and finger wagging at the ready.

I hope this is the start of a better relationship, but I do have my reservations. I'm still not thrilled at the thought of still being with him when he's 70 as you say the moaning you'd think would be 10 times worse then!
I think I was so ready for a big change in my life and now I am trying to make a long term plan that could accommodate DH or not and see how that makes me feel.

Thanks Golden, had a great break, your talk sounded more productive than the one I had with dh this morning! Yes, till the next time, your friend has it right I bet, a leopard doesn't change its spots overnight! Do you feel like your living in limbo? I certainly do, hard to plan ahead when you don't know what anything could be like.

Just going to post on the emotional abuse thread now about the chat I had with dh this morning, are you over or going to go over there?

I ran into a friend yesterday dont really know her that well. She said she and her DH are splitting and when I asked why she said "We've been together 30 years and I asked myself can I do another 30 and the answer was no"

FWIW in answer to your question ages ago is it bad enough to go then my thought is a 100% yes.

My marriage wasnt great but better than the sounds of yours Net and Golden and I am soooo much happier on my own . Sure it takes time , its a painful journey but my god I am living life now and loving it

Dear Net and golden,

Reading this thread was like stepping back 18 months for me. All that hard work to keep him sweet when he does sweet FA.
Just wanted to say that now, almost a year since he legged it for much more compliant OW me and the DCs have a lovely time. We go out and stay out past teatime if we are having a good time, sometimes you can't see the carpet because of toys because we are having a good time. Of course it's difficult on the other side and yes he is still being a complete c* re contact and all sorts but this particular specimen of mad as a box of frogs is now a fly that occasionally buzzes into the background of our lives, does irritate and upset, but is easily swatted away.
A great solicitor, counselling and lots of support from friends both here and in RL have helped.
You can do it.

Thanks gettingeasier :) for understanding. Yours was better? I just feel in the thick of it and can't see clearly, isn't marriage about getting over these bumps or are they mountains that I can't see over. Sorry, lack of sleep, not making much sense today. Life gets better? What have you done that makes it feel better? (Give me hope!) What was painful about it all? (guessing 'what could have been'?)

Tried to post on emotionally abuse thread but mumsnet logged out by the time I had rambled to the end of the post!

Anyway...I'll post on here instead, as its all about 'me'...

House tidied while I was away. Things put in garage (better than having them burned), things put in cupboards, house hoovered (could be 5th time 8 odd years...well done dh), dishes done (will need to be redone, cold water does not clean dishes make ). Bunch of flowers on table. He says most housewives would be delighted to come back to a tidy house (I think I was meant to be clapping hands together and jumping up and down in joy). I said we should have discussed it and worked as a team. He just kept blanking the team bit and asking for me to 'tell' him what to do. I should have an 'organised household routine' then he will help. I eventually countered with 'use your common sense, I should not have to tell you' at which point he walked off. Apparently common sense is not a good idea? Strange how when my mates come round to stay, when they finish a meal I have cooked they do this weird thing and fill sink with hot soapy water and insist on washing up.

Anyway he says he is exhausted due to job. We need time together (so he can lecture me more) and no he won't give up job as life is easier with money (but strangely its not a happier life).

give me strength. Is team work that hard a concept? Is using your common sense a stupid suggestion? Still thinking of separation. Nearly, very nearly told him to stay at his parents. But was left feeling very unreasonable.

Must remind myself of lack of love and affection. He did look hurt though. When he wasn't pissed off with my lack of gratitude and worship.

Thanks for getting this far. I will come to a decision eventually, maybe this week, just need to check I have tried everything to get through to him.

Thanks stewellpeter :)

I just keep thinking he's not that bad and its all me...aggghhhh!!! I know how alls this emotional abuse stuff works damn it and I KNOW it always feels like its me causing it and being responsible for it...

Anyway stewell, this holiday was like you discribe life for you now...kids stayed up till ten thirty!!!

Can't see wood for the trees.

RL friends can't understand him. Their dh's can't understand him (3 know of his behaviour)....so that is 6 people in RL who believe me. And you guys. I just need to believe myself now. Done this before with family (broke all contact) I can do it again (don't bloody want to go through that hell again). Taken me 6 years to be convinced with family, 6 years of doubting myself. oh god. Just need to believe that things will be better, I am doing the right thing for us all.