If you DP said this to you how would you react......

[Beyondconfused]

I have written on here recently regarding me and DP. I have decided to separate from him, we have an 18 month old daughter, all very sad, but alas he won't come to Relate and we can't address our issues and communicate well,he attacks if he hears anything he doesn't agree with and seems to hear his own version of what I've just said. He has an underlying attitude of belittling me (he says I frustrate him which is why he says things in anger).... I am now looking for a flat with my DD.

Anyway.

Tonight, we talked about the split, about our relationship etc. As always we don't agree, he sees his truth and stubbornly refuses to take responsibility for his actions. I see both sides and that we are BOTH the cause. Things got heated in conversation,I said nothing abusive at all, just points about our past problems that he didnt' agree with and then he said

"If you were a bloke I'd knock your teeth down your throat".

How would you have reacted to this?
I reacted with disbelief,and told him it was being abusive. He said it wasn't, and that he was frustrated and that as he said "if you were a bloke" prior to the threat therefore it wasn't a threat. I asked him how he would feel if he heard his Dad say that to his Mum. He said I was overacting and that I'm crazy. I told him firmly that he cannot speak to me like that and that it's utterly wrong.

Have I overreacted?

I am in a similar situation to you (or have been). I tried for ages to make my H see my side/both sides. he just wouldn't or couldn't. He would think that I was ranting, or being irrational etc. He just couldn't or wouldn't accept that I had valid views about what was happening or his behaviour.

After a while I realised that it just doesn't matter what he thinks actually. I know that I have valid views, and I know that he has done wrong, and there is no point wasting my time and energy having the discussion over and over again. So I don't. detaching is hard, but it is worth it I promise. so stop talking to him about the split and the relationship - he isn't going to see it the same way as you no matter what you say. He isn't going to budge from his views. You need to move on and just leave him to stew.

(strangely since I started thinking like this, my H has been alot more self-critical, sensitive to me, and kind, - but I've moved on!).

I can understand why you want him to apologise or at least to understand and admit his part in how you have got to where you are, but I think the best way to deal with him is to detach.

You can't reason with someone who is totally unreasonable. If you accept that it might help you to move on. He is never going to be the person you want him to be, no matter how much you reason with him.

He sounds like he's the sort of person who feels threatened very easily. When you ask him a reasonable question in a reasonable way, he magnifies it into something far bigger and scarier than it actually is, and then gets overwhelmed by the product of his own imagination, then reacts defensively. It must be very hard to live with that sort of pattern going on in your head.

But fuck it, he's a grown man with a partner and child and he has to take responsibility for his own actions. If he is 'pattern-matching' (ie subconsciously assuming that when you ask him a reasonable question, you are being the same as someone who criticised/ threatened him earlier in life) then he has to either sort this out with a professional or deal with the consequences. There is no just reason why you and your daughter should put up with this crap for the rest of your lives. You've tried to work through it with him, and he's flatly refused. So now he's getting what he asked for: the break-up of his family.

Stay strong. Things will be so much better in the near and distant future.

beattie - your situation sounds very much like mine in how you have tried to make him see your side/both sides. I have found myself trying to make him understand my feelings yet at the same time I'm also trying to talk to him in a subjective way too, almost one part of me is the outsider looking in and trying to make him see both sides and the other side is me trying to get him to see that I do have a valid reason to feel as I do. It's just bloody exhausting. My DP also often used the word "ranting" when I was trying to talk to him. Like yours, he just will not accept his own behaviour.

I have come to realise from reading some replies on here that actually yes, you are right, there is simply no point anymore in trying to get him to understand and having the same talk over and over. I suppose I've been hoping he would have a lightbulb moment and realise how many belittling things he's said to me over the years were in fact wrong, his own doing, and not me who made him so frustrated that I made him say them. I guess I was hoping he would understand and therefore stop doing it so we could move forward.

Ok, detach, detach, detach! Thanks ladies. After the comment he said that I wrote about at the start of this post, I have suddenly found it much easier to detach, because if he can't see that saying something that bad is wrong/disrespectful/abusive etc to someone he claims to love, then how could I have possibly ever expected him to see other less abusive things he's said to me are wrong.

There is going to be a very hard road ahead. I feel so upset for the loss of 'family' (not that we ever really had one, maybe for about 6 weeks after DD was born). And to be honest, I'm really scared about the future, being a lone parent, trying not to take on all of the blame etc.

I have just ordered Barbara Engel book about emotional abuse so I can work out my part and his part and then lay it all to rest and learn from it all.

It would be so much easier to deal with without a beautiful young child involved. :(

Maya - his father used to be very aggressive to him as a child and he spent much of his time walking on eggshells. He told me that I was "the second most abusive person he knows after his father". Now, please trust me when I say that this isn't true. As you say, he must feel threatned very. He takes everything as a personal criticism, he is highly defensive, and as you rightly say, he magnifies everything into something it wasn't to start with. If I say something about our relationship, what he actually hears is not the words I said at all.

ie - me -"I need us to go to counselling to address our problems. If you can't do this then I'm afraid I can't move forward with our relationship and I feel we will have to separate"

What he then says I've said " if you don't go to counselling then I'm taking your daughter away from you."

And it goes on and on like this even if I clarify what I've just said.

That's awful, poor guy. I believe you. I know people who behave this way, so I can see that you're telling the truth.

I guess some deep part of him fears that he's going to fall apart if he allows those hypercritical/ abusive voices in. It's madness: if only he could see that by twisting your words like this he is creating his own downfall. You're leaving him and taking his daughter: that's a pretty severe consequence. But if that ultimately jolts him into sorting out his problems, then there's a silver lining. But of course, it may take years. Or it may never happen .

But your responsibility is to yourself and your daughter. So IMO you are definitely doing the right thing.

Thanks for your advice Maya. I had hoped he would try and address everything being that the consequences are so severe as you say, but alas that's not happened. I feel for him actually but I can't save him if he can't face up to his own fears. Such a shame as I can see he has a very kind heart.

You're in an impossible position, really. You have this man in your life and your child creates an unbreakable bond. You clearly care for him very much and you can see how much he's hurting, and that he needs support.

At the same time, you know that he is damaging you and your DD and that that will only worsen with time. You know that removing yourselves will create a lot of anguish and ongoing problems, but that ultimately the outcome will be better. Perhaps part of you feels as though you're abandoning him when he needs you? Perhaps not.

But you are taking the difficult, the brave, and the right decision, to preserve your and your daughter's well-being. That is praiseworthy.

And please let this be your last relationship with such a damaged man!

X

Thanks Maya. You are full of wonderful wise words.x

Any time, lady. I really feel for you and hope it all works out in the long run. I am sure that it will/ you will make it work for you.

Hi OP,
I've read your posts & wondered if your DP & mine (soon to be X) were separated at birth! Though mine probs much older than yours - which = very much more set in his ways, frustrated that he doesn't understand if things go wrong why it happens (as won't take any responsibility for it), has such low levels of respect and awareness of my frustration that even though when HE related to the mediator that we had frequently over time had discussed separation, has subsequently labelled me as the one who suddenly announced I wanted divorce & to split up our family (3 children) & it's all my fault AGAIN!
We have had 3 lots of couples counselling & he's finally now seeing a personal counsellor (4 months, every week) but still no progress.

Since making my decision I've read loads on MN & posts like yours show me what my STBX is like as I've always kept his behaviour (some much worse than what you have related here, a warning sign of things to come perhaps :( ) as a 'private & personal matter' so have never really got an outsiders perspective. This 'behind closed doors' means I've felt completely manipulated and he still appears to all as a perfectly reasonable person.

I know what you mean by the loss of what you had hoped for as a family but what i'd hoped for was lost long ago - I also feel incredibly guilty & selfish at times, as in the future things will be hard, but my kids are much older (1 still at school) so I think there's still a few years left where I & my youngest can be free of this stressful relationship & I also feel I'm passing on a lesson to my 2 daughters & son not to become a victim of this type of behaviour too.

All the very best of luck, & thanks for posting originally as some of the responses I've found really helpful too :) There are great people out there on MN!

I have also signed up for their assertiveness online course to try and see if it's my communication style that is the problem.

Sweetheart: it's not your "communication style" that has caused him to threaten to punch your teeth in.

Only he can cause himself to open his mouth and speak those words.

beatenbrow - Sorry to hear that you too have a similar relationship to mine and are blamed for everything. What you wrote about your DP bringing up the fact that you had both discussed separating 3 times but then blaming YOU when you suddenly announced you wanted a divorce is ringing many bells with me! I have talked to my partner about 3 or 4 times over the past few months about how unhappy I am with our relationship/discussed separating/me moving out etc....2 weeks ago he says to me "a rational person would've moved out by now after what you said"....so 3 days later I find a flat and ask him if he wants to see it before I put a deposit on it (as he is DD's father and I want him to be ok with where she is going to live) and tells me he is in "utter shock" and how appalling it is that out of the blue I tell him I'm going to find a flat to live in with DD!

I throw my hands up in despair as I'm sure you do.

It's very difficult when our DPs appear to be very reasonable people and can be very lovely to us. It's extremely confusing isn't it. I really hope you find a better happiness in the future for you and your kids.

Hotdam - I appreciate what you are saying, of course, I didn't make him say those things. But I guess what I was trying to say was that two people create a dynamic and perhaps there is something in the way I speak to him or tone of voice or something that winds him up so much that he gets so angry that he can say such dreadful things.

Update - he has not mentioned saying those words to me since he said them a week ago. I went to my parents for 3 days and we had some space and since then it's like it never happened, awkward silences up until tonight when he's being nice to me, we've even sat in the lounge together and he's acting as if we're great friends. Weirdly, he's even asked me about any flats I've seen for me and DD and what my plans are this weekend and has been asking me if DD needs anything, nappies etc and given me some money for her. He no longer seems sad or angry or anything about the whole situation. It's like he's now accepted it.

It's all very odd.

But I guess what I was trying to say was that two people create a dynamic and perhaps there is something in the way I speak to him or tone of voice or something that winds him up so much that he gets so angry that he can say such dreadful things.

Do you honestly believe that there is anything you could say or do - let alone tone of voice! - that justifies him threatening to punch your teeth in?

When you are sitting in the lounge with him acting as if you are great friends, are you playing along with this scenario?

Glad to hear you are viewing flats. His opinion of said flats is really neither here nor there, is it? As your DD's mother, you have her interests sufficiently at heart that you can choose a suitable flat without his approval and blessing. Have you decided when you are moving out?

You are right Hotdamn, I know you are. I guess, being one of those foolish understanding types of people I was trying to work out my part in everything. A mistake I always make. I always think "mm, did I do something to make that happen", even when I know 100% that I didn't. But there is a small part of me always wondering.

When we were in the lounge tonight I wasn't playing along as such, I was just being polite, quiet, but polite. He was being friendly. He has just gone to bed and before he went he asked me in a concerned and caring voice if I was alright. I have a feeling he wanted to say more but he didn't.

Re flats - I guess as I want this to be as amicable as possible (as I do care about him still) and that he is DD's father that I felt he should have the opportunity to see where DD may live. It's not about a blessing as such, more out of respect for him as her father. I will move out when I find the right flat, have offered on one but lost it as they didn't want children.

It's rather tricky as I now have no income as he doesn't feel it's fair for him to have to give me money for me (I used to have the child tax credit to spend for myself/dd but that has stopped now as he earns too much). Before that he used to give me £50 a week for me. He pays the mortgage/bills (his house) and gives me money for our food. But I have no money for me and can't claim anything until I move out or find a job. I'm still doing all the things I did around the house and all the childcare etc, part of me thinks it's ok as he is paying for all food and house. But the other part of me thinks, shit I've got no money at all yet I'm still doing the same things as before I said I wanted to separate. I can see both sides (as always!!)What do you think?

As much as I hate everything ending and am terrified, I just want to start to be able to start the new chapter now.

I think "Oy vey, beyond values herself way too little!"

I think you need to get onto entitledto.com and find out all the benefits you will be entitled to once you split.

I think you need to speak to CAB to get advice on your rights wrt child maintenance and any claims you may have on joint assets.

I think you need to stop being polite, as that is enabling, stop doing the housework, ditto, and move out asap.

I think that once you are free, you should work very hard on your self-esteem. Try the Freedom Programme, individual therapy, and assertiveness workshops/textbooks.

It can be SO much better than this.

and mostly, I think you can do it.

Terrified is par for the course. You CAN do it.

OK, so I've been going round in circles trying to get a definitive answer to entitlements etc regarding my own future without Controlling Manipulating Fuckwit (CMF) as he will be known. So here is what I've got so far if it's of any help....

You can get free solicitors time as an initial appt but they spend most of it taking your details and give very little away IMO, so it boils down to deciding what you want and asking if they can get that (or as near to as possible) for you.

Legally "Marital Assets" start at 50/50 share - these are affected by length of marriage, who put what in and how i.e; bringing up children is seen as equal to having a "different" job & bringing in money to household.
Of course the main issue is the care of dependant children - that may sway the % in favour of the primary carer as well as Maintenance for the child; which is set at minimum 15% of secondary carers Nett income.

Getting a divorce is costly and takes some time, with mutual consent it involves a 2 year separation, or if there is Unreasonable Behaviour ( & I think we can safely say there is) you do not have to wait and some solicitors costs can be paid by the 'Respondent'.
It seems some Solicitors don't work on Legal Aid for Divorces especially when there are any financial aspects & care for a child would necessitate that.
To find advice in your area you can google 'Legal 500' for Solicitors or www.findmediation.co.uk/whatismediation.php for mediation services - which are free if you qualify for Legal Aid - check that here: legalaidcalculator.justice.gov.uk/calculators/eligiCalc?execution=e1s1

Other useful places to check for support are Shelter (vast array of advisors who get back to you personally on housing, benefits, etc) via phone or email: england.shelter.org.uk/home
This one helps with what you may be entitled to whether working - Tax credits etc, or not : www.turn2us.org.uk/information__resources/benefits/beginners_guide_to_benefits/change_in_circumstances/separating_from_a_partner.aspx

I've also found that for £20 you can get a professional answer to legal questions via www.justanswer.com/archives/search-solr.aspx?q=mortgages+UK&c=&p=7 & on that site you can look up similar queries for free to give you some ideas.
Well that's all I can think of for now, there are loads of places that may advise & I think feeling secure about your options may give you more resolve to get through difficult decisions.
Keep strong

Thanks for the all the helpful suggestions especially the books and BeyondConfused I hope that you get self belief back by removing yourself from a difficult situation - possibly the strongest message you can send your daughter for the future is that mummy doesn't have to suffer but can stand on her own two feet proudly.

Have just read this thread. I hope you get out sooner rather than later OP. He sounds like a nasty, manipulative, abusive narcissist. He knows you have no money, right? He thinks he holds all the cards, and probably isn't taking you seriously when you say you are going to leave. Are you relying on him to fund your move?

You say you're not scared of him and I sincerely hope you won't have reason to be, but I hope you get out soon.

I am still looking for the right flat as I don't want to move me and DD around in another 6 months.
Since the night that he said those horrible words that I wrote at the start of this thread he has been really nice. I even asked him why he was being nice and he said it was better to be nice than for us to be horrible to eachother under the circumstances. He has never mentioned what he said to me.
It's all rather confusing.

I have continued to view flats. He was fine up until yesterday when I told him I was looking at a flat and he went very quiet and seemed upset. It's almost like he thought I'd stopped looking or something as he had been nice to me. Burying his head in the sand. Yesterday he came back from work saying he felt sick and he went out for a walk in evening to clear his head.

This morning he said he wasn't happy with the arrangement of us living together as it was and that if I am "going to go through with it" then I should have the decency to go and live at my parents until I find the right place (they live an hour away, totally impractical for finding a flat here and also our relationship is not their problem). He said none of it was fair on him, that he felt ill and that me being here was rubbing his nose in it (with DD) and just showing him what he'll be missing. He very firmly told me that the situation was not going to continue.

I understand his feelings, he feels as I've told him I want to separate that I "shouldn't hang around", but at the same time he has been calling the shots in that one minute he's saying awful things, the next being nice and telling me it's better to be nice and asking me how the flathunting is going etc.

olgaga No I'm not relying on him to fund the move. Thankfully I have wonderful parents who are going to lend me the deposit for a flat.
I think he hasn't been taking me seriously when I've said I am going to leave, even though I've viewed 9 flats!
He's a decent guy honestly, I just think he has many issues from his past which he refuses to deal with and therefore he acts as he does sometimes, wrongly I know (alas he doesn't admit to his shortcomings).

He very firmly told me that the situation was not going to continue.

He obviously didn't take you seriously. If he can't put up with it then of course it's up to him to leave until you've found the right flat.

In all honesty can you really imagine a nice easy=going relationship with this man when you have split up? I suppose what I'm saying is, if he's the only reason you want to live in that area I think you should think about whether being closer to your own family will be more useful to you in the long run. It's not easy being a single parent and having to work without reliable, unconditional help.

Either way I'd step up the search and wouldn't hang about any longer than absolutely necessary. TBH I'd also give up on trying to communicate - there's really no point going over old ground. I know you don't think you're in any danger and I hope it stays that way, but his language to you indicates a lot of pent-up aggression and that's not a good situation for you or your DD whether he manages to keep a lid on it or not.

I'm assuming the mortgage is in both your names, but all of those things can be dealt with through solicitors when you are out of there.

It is his house, not mine so I have no rights. Also, I really don't think we are at that stage (or perhaps, I'm far more reasonable and wouldn't tell him to leave, then again, I don't know what I'd do if he was the one who said he wanted to separate).

He's not the only reason I want to stay in the area, I have friends here and love it here and moreoever I want dd and him to have a close relationship. Once the dust has settled in the coming months I'm sure we will be friends (naive?).

I am normally a lurker but after reading he will never hit you I had to write to you.

I am going through a break up also, my H was an EA but never never said an angry agressive word to me ever. I really belived he would never hurt me physically. Today he very much turned into the agresser.

Please be careful and never underestimate a threat.
Take care x