Can and should I forgive his infidelity?

[LivingNightmare]

I posted before Christmas about my marriage (search on my nickname if you like) and I'm afraid things got a lot worse after that. To make a very long story short I'm married since 7 years back, a SAHM, 3 young DCs. DH started affair w someone from his work last spring. Continued over summer after confronted admitted only what I could prove but I knew there was more. He promised to cut all contact, we worked on issues in our marriage (the usual of not enough sex, not enough couple time etc).

Before Xmas I had feeling he was seeing her again (still?) and sure enough found very explicit messages he could not deny. The messages were a few weeks old and he claimed he had already finished. Had awful few weeks away on holiday together and when we got back I asked him to move out for a month to give me some space, whilst both said we wanted to stay in the marriage. When he moved back he was very affectionate and expressive of his love so I felt like we had been given a new start. V quickly though I realised he had not been staying at a friend as he said but with her and I was pretty sure he was still seeing her. It all blew up a month ago by me intercepting a meeting between them - I actually sat down and spoke with OW! We was v remorseful and said he had intended to finish w her but was waiting for right time, being a coward - whatever! Said he was relieved that it was now over and was going to spend rest of his life making it up to me.

I said I would take some time to decide what I want to do. Now that the dust has settled I'm really struggling to come to terms with what he did. I think if it had been a one-off mistake or a short-lived affair I would've been able to forgive. But he continued this despite me catching him out several times, and despite assuring me several times it was over. Is it even possible to forgive such a deceit? How could I ever trust him? Even though the affair is probably over (I think it scared her to meet me in RL!) I continue to feel suspicious, questioning his whereabouts in my mind. And I continue to have flash-backs of when he's lied, pictures of what he was like with her etc. Will I always feel like that? He now acts as if nothing has happened (doesn't want to talk about it). At the same time leaving the marriage will have huge financial and practical consequences, not to mention that the kids will be devastated. I think he does love me and the kids, he provides well for the family etc.

I would be interested in hearing views from others who have been through something similar. I thought I would just know in my gut what to do. Btw, he refuses counselling.

Personally I think words are easy. He is saying what he thinks you want to hear so he can get back in. He is not sorry for having an affair and hurting you. If he was he would not have continued after the first time. He is only sorry his sordid little affair has been found out and he is suffering the consequences.

The first time you thought he was having an affair he admitted only what I could prove. Then he promised to cut all contact, we worked on issues in our marriage (the usual of not enough sex, not enough couple time etc).

He in actual fact within a few months was straight back to shagging her, if he ever stopped all while you were working on the relationship and putting more into it.

His actions will show a lot more than his words. If he is serious...

I would suggest you ask him to move out and make a start on counsellling alone (to prove that he is serious) before you agree to any joint counselling with him.

I also think that he will have to look for a new job asap as he is clearly unable to separate work and this woman.

He (and you) will also need complete STI checks. Condoms do not protect from all STIs. Sorry.

Take your time, decide what is right for you. If that includes him so be it, if it doesn't he cause this to happen you are not to blame. If he is serious he will do all that is necessary. If he is not serious he will get fed up and show his true colours eventually.

He might say he loves you. He might even believe it. But think back to when you were growing up and imagined being in love. Did your idea of love look like the way he has treated you? He hasn't shown that he loves you at all. He is panicking now because he didn't believe you would ever leave him, so he's saying what you want to hear. Do you really believe he has had a huge epiphany since yesterday?

there's also the awful possibility that he went from you to her thinking she'd take him in/get back with him and she knocked him back.

You need time and space to process everything - if he really means what he is saying then he should understand this without getting angry.

He has already proved time after time that he is a liar and a cheat

Words are cheap so make sure you check that his actions are backing up everything he has said - time will tell, all the more reason why you can't make a decision for some time.

In the meantime do get Shirley Glass;s Not Just Friends - it will help you enormously like it has helped many of us on here.

And yes, how come he has suddenly changed his tune - what has changed since yesterday?

I also suspect things are not going well with OW and that he may be falling back on Plan B (ie you). Nice.

I do feel for you, I'm so sorry

You are right, words are easy. Have already done full STI check for myself (twice :(). No of course he hasn't had an epiphany overnight... I will see how he acts over the next few months, once he's realised I'm not going to let him back home just because he says the right things, maybe he will be back to his old ways.

I wish he could leave his job or department, that was my original condition,, but there are circumstances that makes this very difficult right now and I know that's true. I suppose she could leave, but don't think he would ever ask her to.

It might be a good idea to get him to go to counselling on his own first, god knows he needs it!

Would you ever be able to relax and trust him going to work with her every day knowing he has betrayed you with her twice?

I don't know MadAbout, I didn't get a feeling last night that OW is around at moment, although could be wrong. I think I shocked him and hurt him last night when I was brutally honest about how I feel. Since he is so emotionally screwed up he reacted by getting angry. Today maybe it really hit him that he's going to lose us? But it doesn't mean he can/will change...

Xales - I don't know to be honest. If he was very open, communicative and accountable maybe but that would require a complete personality change!!

And sorry, yes, already have the Shirley Glass, certainly
recognise a lot of what she's describing.

You could be right LN, but after the way he's behaved and breaking your trust over and over again, you need to tread carefully.

The anger he showed yesterday is almost as if he is having a huge strop and the fact you think OW is not around would explain it. Things are not working out the way he had hoped these would - Plan A and now B are falling through. This is why I am not sure he really is serious about changing.

So I survived the first weekend on my own, although can't help feeling a bit sad on my own on a Sunday evening. But I'm sure I will get used to it. DH came this afternoon to see the kids but barely spoke to me.
Although he seemed more sad than angry. Left immediately once the kids were in bed although I offered him to stay and talk - he just made a gesture as if ''What's the point''? So just because I didn't just cave in yesterday and asked him to come back he's lost interest again. Predictable I know! Yes, he is prone to acting like a child when things don't go his way. I guess I just need to learn not to rely on him or expect him to act the way I want. I'm on my own now...

WELL DONE for laying down a boundary. Notice how the behaviour changed?

But unfortunately he is showing huge resistance to actually doing any hard work, like looking at himself and taking responsibility for his selfish hurtful behaviour (you were supposed to melt and forgive him). The fact that he really didn't want to talk (which means, examining himself, and caring about your thoughts and feelings), gestured 'what's the point' is self-pitying and puts the blame on to YOU...

• and this needs to be your guideline. Nothing what he says, only what he does.

A pretty good test, is telling him that if he is serious about keeping his family, that he gives up OW immediately and goes into counselling to examine why he thinks that behaviour is acceptable. At least once a week, every week without fail.
And, say, after November, you both go together to see a way forward.

You know already he won't show that level of commitment and intent to become a better human being, don't you?

As to the pain and sadness. Yes, it is agony. It really hurts. You wonder if you will survive it, to be honest. But it has been sent to teach you, it really has. So look into the pain and see what it tells you. Remember, comfort and change don't travel on the same bus. (often, they aren't even on the same route).
Be brave, have faith, and remember you have a lot of internet friends who have walked a mile in your shoes, understand and will be there for you. You will not die, promise.

I just wanted to add that for me the pain was about being abandoned, and (eventually) about having my needs and thoughts and feelings count for nothing (which triggered off deeper stuff). It ceased to be about the betrayal, which was just a continuum of the above.

So, what is that pain telling me? It's telling me about dependency, living my life through another person, the need to develop my own life, friends, career, self.

It ceases to be about the marriage after a while, also!

So all the time you kick and scream against the pain, try and control/change/pacify him in order to stop the pain, - you continue it, SWIM?

It is hard, hard work accepting: he is this selfish. He is this uninvolved. I/my feelings/integrity/needs matter this little to him. It really IS like this.

Therefore, why is this normal for me? How have I come to accept this? Now that my denials/compliance have been stripped away by this awful hurt, what do I really feel? What do I really think? What do I really want?

But that is the 'me' work that must be done, for a fuller more whole life afterwards. You do the work, you will leave his inadequate self behind for idiot OW and others who accept that level of behaviour, the way you used to.

DH works with a "man" who cheats on his wife, she has him followed with private detectives and intercepts them at places they are meeting. Then she kicks him out. He goes to stay with friends/ow has even more time to shag whichever woman hes seeing and then goes back when they decide to "make a go of it". Then 6 months later someone else comes along and it all starts again.

I wouldnt want to be that wife. I dont think any of us would. Whilse she is hating the latest OW she doesnt realise is that he actively seeks out other women. The only reason he isnt cheating on right now is that the woman he was going to ask out has just started seeing someone.

So back to your situation, the anger is to control you. Wives are very usefull, we keep house, look after children and we look after them. When he starts to lose the argument anger is his weapon. hen that fails then the text messages and proclamations of love start, emotional blackmail about the childrens lives etc. But when your kids are grown up they will understand that dad cheating on mum is wrong. If you had stayed they would have learnt that dad cheating on mum is fine. She always had him back.

My DN cheats on his girlfriends and treats them, quite frankly, like shit. He treats them like his dad treated his mum, which was to cheat and have no respect for them at all.

Wrt to your mum, well people advised SIL to have her partner back, everyones allowed one mistake etc but I think affairs are like icebergs. Most of it you dont see. You dont know what he told OW. My wife hates sex/doesnt understand me/we lead seperate lives/ I only stay for the kids/she's too unstable to cope on her own.

The one thing you know for certain is that he met another women he found attractive, there was flirting and instead of thinking "I'm married so I wont" he thought "I'm not going to let that hold me back". We could all go out and meet someone else for sex, but if you love your spouse/partner then you just dont.

Wrt to divorce, I am under the impression that courts are not interested in who caused the divorce or who files. They just want to see that the division of assests and child access are fair and just. They are not interested in the soap opera of our lives. When my DH split up from his Exp (she cheated on him) all the judge wanted to see was that the money was divided equally and awarded costs to my DH as she had purposely strung out the process and was therefore penalised. They will suggest mediation, you can go seperately as they try to keep it out of court for as long as possible.

You will be fine. You're not alone either, you have 3 gorgeous dc to keep you company.

Thanks for all your input. What makes it hard to stand firm is that I'm the one giving up, whilst he claims to want to try. Most likely I don't think he has seen OW for two months (my gut instinct has been quite accurate so far, but of course I can't be sure). I don't think he's a serial adulterer, I just don't think that's his nature. But it doesn't matter, what he chose to do with her is enough, I can't get over it.

Before DH left last night, my DC3 said, daddy why can't you be here tomorrow morning, and the next morning. And he replies: 'That's a very good question! 'Aaaahhh...

Then he follows up with a text saying: 'i read your book if thats what you want to talk about fine im willing to do that but im not prepared to live in some hotel and not seeing my children whilst we do it if you want to see me to discuss we can meet for dinner on fri when i'm back from traveling'

Nice one! So apparently he's staying in a hotel. The one friend he talks to has his parents visiting so he can't stay there. I do feel bad that he has to stay in a hotel which is why I've several times offered him to stay in spare room until he sorted something out. The book he'd referring to is 'Not just friends' that I suggested he read. So now he is making adressing his issues conditional on me letting him move back in! Forget it! I only responded that I was happy to meet on Friday but I'm not going to let him move back. He is still not taking me seriously at all.

I took my rings off today :(. I should probably tell him on Fri that we shouldn't even bother with counseling and that the split needs to be permanent. I wish I just felt a bit stronger, I still have this lingering feeling that I should give it some time, him a chance to show he's serious and wants to change.

Be strong.

I kicked H out because he assaulted me and he still played the victim (because I threw him the lifeline that he was ill and needed to get better).

If he really wanted to try, he'd have stopped cheating.
Too little too late.

You have to stop believing what he tells you, even if he "means" it at the time.

In his text he is laying you conditions, when you should be the one doing it. Remember you are in the right and he chose his path, knowing the consequences.

You have already showed amazing strength.

Urgh, laying down conditions when he should be grovelling and bending over backwards to reassure you - that's not good at all

This suggests he is angry that his plans are not working out and that he's trying to manipulate you into agreeing to let him come back, no questions asked and everything swept under the carpet only for things to come back and bite you on the bum.

Stay strong x

"I still have this lingering feeling that I should give it some time,"

Sit down with a cup of tea and that lingering feeling will go away. It's just a little residual guilt playing on your mind... put there by his sob story about hotel rooms, gushing texts, and your child asking where Daddy is. Put your mental armour on, harden your heart and keep reminding yourself of the many reasons why he chose through his behaviour to be out there in the metaphorical cold and not still under your roof, part of your family. Then lock the spare room, fill your diary, keep busy and move on with your life.

I don't think he's a serial adulterer, I just don't think that's his nature. But it doesn't matter, what he chose to do with her is enough, I can't get over it.

But he's had an affair for over a year (at least), assured you numerous times that it's over, lied to you, kept you both dangling on a string....

What's 'serial' got to do with it? Is it not so bad if it's just with the same OW - for months???

You think he hasn't seen her for a few months? Does that mean he's 'yours' again?

He is sad/angry/wistful because he's been found out. Why is it your fault?

he is such an entitled prat isn't he?

oh poor me i'm in a hotel. poor me i'm not seeing my children all the time. he wasn't bothered about them, their happiness and security when he was having a year long affair with another woman and continued even after being found out knowing exactly what he was gambling.

i'd reply to any of those kind of messages with something along the lines of 'remember WHY you are where you are. i gave you multiple chances and you chose adultery over me and the kids every time. you need to take responsibility for what you did. none of this is my fault'

I listened to a program on R4 ages ago where they interviewed two ladies who run a detective agency, they said all the men who hired them wanted proof so they could end the relationship/divorce and all the women who hired them just wanted the OW out of the way so they could continue the marriage.

I wonder how many chances he would give you (or any of us come to that) if you had been cheating.

I do think your in a very vulnrable (sp fail) state though and that before you let him back you give yourself a few months to think about it.

You only have his word he is in a hotel. He could be with OW. Could he provide reciepts for his stay?.

Reading a book isnt really atonement for sticking his knob in another woman.

Me again. Sorry for the radio silence. In response to some of the last posts, my reflection that I don't think DH is a serial adulterer was just a response to someone else's post. Not saying he's any less screwed up - just has slightly different problems.

Fluffy - I suspect he would show me the receipts if I asked him. He has, against this nature, which is very private, always has been, showed me details of his recent business trips. But to me it isn't really the point. He is probably not with OW anymore but he was with her for a year, maybe longer, even though I caught him several times. And he didn't actually finish the affair himself, she did - with my help. Also he doesn't really seem very remorseful or understanding to what I've been going through and am still going through. Thinking back at our last big discussion about it about a month ago, what he said he would try to do was to spend more time with me and be more accountable when away. To be fair, he has done both those things. But it's just not enough.

So this week we have only been in touch by text and email. He has suggested meeting to talk tomorrow night. In his texts he has been consistently humble, saying he misses me, loves me, wants to change, open up etc. Having known him for ten years, I've never quite seen him let his guard down like this. But, as someone said, words are easy. I think he is hoping I will let him move back whilst promising to talk, do counseling etc. We will have a natural separation over the summer months because of me taking the kids to our holiday house abroad and he's said if I still feel the same at the beginning of the summer he will leave me alone. I see it the other way around, that we should be separated until we leave and the evaluate things when we get back in September. Maybe by the I can see if he is serious and making enough effort to change/address his issues. At the same time, I can sort of see his point when he says how can he show me he'a trying to change if he's not with me.

Also, what do I tell my 6 year old DC. I've told DC's that mummy is upset with daddy and that we're not going to live together for a while. 6 year old wants more info though, asking why I'm upset with him so I said that daddy hadn't been honest about some things and therefor I found it difficult to trust him. What had he lied about was the next question and
I said it was something that I would tell DCs when they are older. Couldn't I just forgive him? Maybe but it is sometimes difficult was my answer. Have no idea whether I'm saying the right things! Keep telling DCs both mummy and daddy love them very much and will always be there for them and how none of this is their fault. At the same time, feel like I have a very short fuse with them at the moment... :(

The changes he makes need to be independent of your relationship, so that's the point of him staying away so that he can work on himself. This work is very personal and is something he needs to be doing for himself as much as your relationship or future partners. It's not work on the relationship you're asking for is it? It's that he works on himself and he doesn't need you around to do that. Also, if he hasn't 'got this' in a year, a week or a fortnight isn't going to touch the sides.

I'm a little cynical that he wants to move back in and prove himself until you leave for the summer, then intends to 'leave you alone' if you still feel the same way. That sounds like a green light for when the cat's away......
I've read all your posts and it's still all about him and his comfort. There's no sense that realises what this is really about; he just wants to get his home comforts back, read a book to appease you (he should have read that by now instead of offering to do so if you insisted) and make a few token efforts to show he's changed.

So my advice is to refuse to see him tonight and ask him to honour your wishes for no unnecessary contact. I'd stop the text exchanges and just deal with issues about the children.

It might be worth explaining to your daughter that we can only forgive people if we think they are genuinely sorry for what they've done and if we have confidence that they'll never do it again. You can perhaps say that you did forgive daddy a few times already, but he did the same thing again and again and so you want to make sure this time that he is really sorry. But make the distinction that when adults hurt eachother, they don't have to forgive, but mummies and daddies always forgive their children because the love is completely unconditional, unlike the love between adults.

Explaining these things to our DC is never easy... but if you don't do it now, how are you going to tell your DC that you kept taken DH back again and again knowing that he was playing away when she gets older.

"I stayed with your father because I didn't know how to tell you" doesn't sound great.

I do believe our DC pick up a lot more than we like to think from our relationships and learn from what they see. If she thinks it is normal for a DP to play away how will you explain to her that it is not when she/he gets older. After all you put up with it...