What's a M.I.L.F?

[desparado]

Sorry, please excuse my naitivity, have heard this expression many times used in context and figured it what it must mean generally, but what does it actually stand for?

[SquaredUp]

I've just found the newsbeat survey online and it isn't anywhere near as bad as you have portrayed. The link is
b b c . co . uk\newsbeat\12918531
"Two-thirds of men and half the women said that looking at porn was fine in moderation."

[MagsAloof]

Yes, because the perception of porn is fucked up. It has become normalised @ Squared.

Really sad and worrying.

[TheRhubarb]

That's not quite the one I was thinking of, this one stated how relationships were affected by porn.

However if you are just going to argue that no-one has a problem with porn so why therefore should we then I won't waste any more of my time on you. I suppose if the majority of people jumped off a cliff you'd follow them. The "I'm alright Jack" mentality is alive and well and found in SquaredUp.

[TheRhubarb]

//This from young teenage girls who feel they have to accept the way porn has entered the bedroom.

[TheRhubarb]

Sorry, link is here

I wonder if you have a daughter SquaredUp and if so, if you are worried about her future relationships based on that Newsbeat interview with those 2 girls? Because I have an 11yo dd and I'm sure as hell worried about it. I don't want her to think that because these women do it, that is what sex is about. I don't want her forced into accepting degrading sexual practices that she doesn't want to do purely because she feels that she has to, because isn't everyone else? I don't want her to feel that she is there merely to be used as some sexual object by men.

I mean, most young men didn't even know that having sex with a drunk girl who could not give her consent was RAPE. And have you read about the abuse the girl who was raped whilst drunk, is now receiving after being named by Twitter? Because apparently you can't rape a woman you see, apparently we are all gagging for it and that's just what we are here for.

THIS is the attitude YOU are defending.

[SquaredUp]

I agree that ALL non-consensual sexual contact is unacceptable and must be deemed as a criminal offence. There will always be individuals who will commit these crimes and to a certain extent, they may be encouraged by the more dubious aspects of a VERY wide range of explicit material. However, the vast majority of young people and mature adults alike can see the difference between a porn film and real life. To deny this is to demean the very character or many normal-minded people. Can we also accept that women (myself included) can have a healthy interest is sex, including watching other people having sex without resorting to the whole RAPE issue.

[RobinSure]

What about porn that doesn't involve men? It appears your main problem with porn is that it shows men in a position of power over us. Now, how would you feel if instead it was porn made by lesbians, in an indie style, with women who enjoy each other having sex, with no men involved anywhere. Is that still wrong?

[MagsAloof]

I hate that. If you are anti porn, it means you are anti-sex, a prude, easily shockable, only like vanilla sex etc.

No. I am none of these things.

I just object to an industry based on exploiting and sexualising women for the profit of men.

[TheRhubarb]

SquaredUp, can you not see that just by watching what you call, mainstream porn, is encouraging and funding this industry which also produces rape porn and teen porn? That mainstream porn is now more shocking than ever and more and more men are searching for yet more shocking material as mainstream no longer does it for them?

No, I don't think that an 11yo who is exposed to porn can differentiate between that and real life relationships. If porn is your only way into sex then why wouldn't you think that all sexual relationships were as un-intimate as that?

And this isn't just about RAPE but about child abuse, about teenage girls trafficked from Lithuania and Thailand to the US and UK to make porn movies. About children being exposed to porn on the internet. About women being demeaned and objectified. About the porn industry using terms like "Pokemon" to lure children into their world.

You don't see that, you don't care. Because selfishly you just want to get your rocks off and not feel guilty about it. You don't care about the OPs feelings, you just wanted her to feel belittled by your argument that accessing porn and trampling all over the feelings of the other person, were normal. You want to think that all men are into porn and can't have a wank without it. You want to normalise it so that you don't have to think too deeply about it.

[TheRhubarb]

Feminist Porn is a myth

[RobinSure]

That's from a blog called "Rage against the manchine". Some of us like our men.

[SquaredUp]

I, too, disagree with the abusive content and mysogyny in some of the porn online, but not all of it is so degrading to women. Some porn is in fact erotic, funny and respectful to both genders. Dismissing ALL porn as abusive is a rash generalisation.

[TheRhubarb]

Of course, all feminists are man haters!

Funny that because on Mumsnet I've been called anything but! Then again those who have no argument that answers yours will lower themselves to pure general name calling and inferences that you are a hairy-handed lesbian man-hating feminist.

Can't you do any better than that?

[RobinSure]

Fine.

Any (generally) reputable source of news and opinion attempts to maintain a neutral tone. Now, they're generally bad at this, such as the Times being the mouthpiece of the Murdochs, but you'll note it's called the times, not "That big anti-regulation paper". The Observer is meant to merely observe, and the Telegraph is named after a nicely quaint bit of telecommunications technology.

That blog is deliberately named as a pun to show its standpoint. If I subscribed to "woman-haters weekly", I would not be surprised to find it describing the best way to weld women to ovens, or where to find the cheapest hijabs. Given the name of the blog, I am not interested in hearing its opinion.

You also haven't answered by question about man-free porn.

[TheRhubarb]

SquaredUp, as the women on the blog discovered, finding such porn is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

I'll quote it to you as you are insisting that we should defend porn for the tiny minority which is not degrading to women:

"I would like to see some evidence if people are going to keep making the claim that not all porn is necessarily laden with woman hatred. I also don?t really understand why people ? especially feminists ? spend so much time and energy discussing three feminist outliers that may or may not exist while ignoring the three billion or so misogynistic porn images that definitely do exist.

So we googled ?feminist porn? to see what we?d find. What we got was 322,000 results, most of which were discussions by feminists of whether such a thing as feminist porn can or does exist, along with a very, very small number of sites claiming to offer ?woman friendly? porn. On the first page of results, there were only two that contained any porn or links thereto, and there wasn?t another one until the fifth page of results. From there on out, I didn?t see any at all and eventually got tired of seeing the same summary results over and over: rehashings of the ol? ?is feminist porn an oxymoron? debate and interviews with women who claim to be both feminists and porn stars. Interesting....

We decided to compare those results with other search terms for niche varieties of porn we assumed would garner a similar number of hits.

We googled ?rape porn.? We got 1,860,000 results, and the entire first page, a link to the Wikipedia article on tentacle rape porn notwithstanding, was made up of links to sites offering rape porn. On the first five pages, every single result save three was a rape porn site. Some quotes: ?Crying young teen bitches in violent rape porn movies!,? ?Weeping chicks getting their holes probed by countless men in a row or even at once ? all without their approval, all at inimitable Gang Rape Videos!,? ?Rape these bitches so hard they bleed from torn ass holes and abused pussies.?

We googled ?brutal porn.? We got 2,810,000 results, and every single result in the first five pages except for one news story about a brutal child porn ring was a site offering things like ?Brutal sex, throatfuck mixed up with brutal face fucking? and ?some of the scariest porn on the net.?


Need I go on? So you want us to believe that feminist porn has any merit whatsoever?
If you take a stand against the porn industry, against the brutal portrayal of women, against the easily accessible images and videos, against the inclusion of keywords like Pokemon that are deliberately placed to lure kids or get a hit in Google images, against any kind of brutality whatsoever, then your feminist porn and your consenual eco-friendly porn will become more popular as a result and everyone will be happy.

[TheRhubarb]

You think it is irrelevant because it's called 'Rage Against the Man-Chine?'

Really? That is your argument? I hope you get that outraged about those t-shirts which call women bitch and whore or which made fun of domestic violence.

By man free porn I assume you mean lesbian porn which is made to cater yet again for men who like to see woman-on-woman action. I have no idea if lesbians actually watch it, not being one myself. But you are a child if you think that lesbian porn is made for lesbians. As for is it degrading? You need to ask, does this objectify women? Does this make out that women not only love sex with men but with each other too. And how many of those films then feature men watching or joining in?

I've children to look after now and better things to do than sit here debating this with two people who refuse to answer questions that I've put to them (Squared) and who refuse to accept the blinding evidence put before them. It's like banging my head against a brick wall.

[RobinSure]

And we feel the exact same way about you. Welcome to the internet, where being faceless means never having to believe you're wrong.

[TheRhubarb]

I'm wrong? Tell you what, I'm back on tomorrow. Why not collect your evidence as I have spent time collecting mine for you. Because I have backed up every one of my claims with links. You may or may not want to read them, probably because you don't want to know the truth, but they are there and most of them, aside from the blog, are not biased. So you show me your evidence that porn does not affect children, does not affect women, does not affect relationships and is not responsible for trafficking or abuse.

I'd like to see what you come up with. Unlike you, I would read it.

[RobinSure]

No. Because I don't care enough. And I'm not fool enough to actually put effort into convincing somebody of something over the internet.

[MagsAloof]

I answered your question about man-free porn, if you read up a bit.

Lesbian porn is but a tiny drop in the big bad ocean of horribly misogynistic hetero porn - which is almost exclusively made by men, aimed at men and makes profit for men.

Refute that, go on.

I have no interest in being right. I have an interest in the rights of women.

[RobinSure]

I was actually more interested in it in regards to the comments made earlier about it being a horrible thing to have in a relationship, and whether porn (even still made by men) didn't include the power dynamic, by excluding men from it fell under the umbrella of objectifying women.

[MagsAloof]

I have an opinion on porn per se - that it is wholly objectifying, rather than 'erotic'.

I think my point above wrt porn is more relevant and pertinent, though.

[RobinSure]

Then we disagree, and I give up.

[MagsAloof]

Hmmm. You have really contributed to this thread, thanks

OP, hope you're OK