Red flags I should have heeded - share yours for womenkind

[ParsleyTheLioness]

There were various red flags that meant I should have headed for the hills, but I was vulnerable at the time, and he only upped the ante several years and a child down the line. I will share mine, in the hope that someone may take it on board, and hopefully others will share theirs too.
In no particular order: very early on in our relationship, he would throw a strop for no reason that I could discern, and looking back, still didn't know what had triggered it. I just knew I felt bad afterwards.
He was always unaware of personal space, and would frequently invade mine. Eg in the car, he would suddenly lurch accross me to access the glove box, without any warning. His car, his space.
Subtle undermining tactics. I am very particular about the perfume I wear. Anything else is a bit of waste of money really. He knew this, but would always try to 'convert' me to another one.
There were many others, and things got worse, with lots of EA, some dv, but I am just thinking of the things that had my Twat Detector been working, would have encouraged me to get out before I had emotionally invested. Please feel free to add. I'm sure I shall think of lots of other things later.

Ex had mother and father who fought over him - mother ran away with him to her family when he was six months, father went and got him back and had him raised by his family. He remains furious at mother and idolizes his now dead father. Said father alternatively kicked the crap out of him, told him he was brilliant (taught him to read and do maths very early) and abandoned him for work/new family. Ex can only conceive of family life as a desperate power struggle which he has to win at any price.

My family background is pretty stable. There is a slight element that I'm the oldest child so I have to be "good" and not have needs of my own because others need to be attended to first. Also, my mother is on the whole a good person, but consistently told me "You'd be so good-looking if you'd only take care of yourself" ie lose weight. It made it hard for me to decode ex's messages to me that "You'd be so great if only you'd....". And of course I never could be good enough.

Not really red flags, as we were married by then, but:

• hardly acknowledging me telling him I'm pregnant when I got home whilst watching footie. We had been trying for over 2 years and I was walking on air that day. I really expected something more than a smile.

• giving me a mug with the symbols of his favourite football club (a major rival to mine ) with I love you on the back. I think that was some anniversary or Valentine's.

Not sure why I didn't throw it on his face. I still have it at home, although I have recently put it away on things to give him back. Maybe I should keep it to remind me of what a mug he is... Although, he keeps reminding me of that.

we (women) seem to think we can change twatish men. For some reason we think we can succeed where all his past partners have failed.

Well said!

And this is OUR BIG RED FLAG. 'This' is the number 1 problem of women.

And do you know what? It is deeply controlling, deeply arrogant, and deeply unloving. We are NOT accepting them for who they really are, but investing in their potential. This is wilful denial, and comes from a bad place from within us - that we chose to disbelieve what is in front of us, and embark on a journey of hope that WE delude ourselves we are in control of, until we are left with disillusionment and hurt. How many threads of pain are the consequence of this... .

And who are we? God, that we can 'change' another person to our liking? I think that this is THE largest lesson that we need to pass on to our younger woman:

That we actually have no right to want to alter another autonomous person, and that to do so, to not believe them when they tell us who they are, is very deeply disrespectful and the opposite of love. It is unloving

[Wobbly holding up a very large mirror, to the seminal cause of the problems in her life ]

Ruby: hedgehogs are very endangered, you know!

They are the favourite snack of (and don't have a chance against) badgers (bumblebee nests also), which after years of misguided protection have had a population explosion.

Not to diss what you say, or the obsessiveness of it tho'...

Yes, I agree, Wobbly. It's a mistake my mother made and I repeated. The exes actually wanted me to "change" them, which I now recognise as one humungous scarlet banner, but felt like destiny at the time. There are all those songs about a woman saving/helping/healing a man, yes? And a quote from some film, that I took as gospel, where the female lead says "I love him for who he CAN be."
Argh!

Thank you to everyone who has replied to my post [about how to help my young sons grow up to be kind men].

Strength and best wishes to everyone who has been, or still struggles, in abusive relationships. There but for the grace of god...

flapping are you still with him?

Yes, I am. The trouble is it's not been constant enough to ever make leaving the clear course of action. And it's only really since I've been on MN that my eyes have opened.

Also, I'm not sure we should blame families, but ex's:

Dad:

• used to beat them with his belt (not regularly, but once would be enough for me...)
• is known to destroy things he was trying to fix when he got frustrated
• likes to annoy his wife for no reason, just to see her annoyed, mostly by accusing her of something
• is extremely jealous
• hardly does anything at home

Mother:

• keeps saying that her sons are useless
• talks to people about her issues again and again, even when they stop listening and talk to someone else,
• never asks about other people's lives (or how they are)
• can't let go of grudges easily
• has got issues with most people she knows, including her family
• "never lies" and yet keeps lying to people for the most stupid reasons
• hardly ever calls(called)
• very tight with money
• doesn't like inviting people in because she "can't cook"; "makes" people cook and then criticises what they do
• didn't invite my parents in when they visited (they lived abroad) the first time (or ever),
• encouraged ex to drink even though I said that he was on anti-D and shouldn't drink alcohol

Sometimes I think he got the worst from each.

I didn't think I could 'fix' my tool of an exH - I thought he was brilliant! He showered me with love and affection right up until our early marriage, when it all switched off (once he knew he had me).

The first red flag: when we were first dating and I was still planning to move to London and share a flat with a mate of mine, he emailed: 'When you go to London, just don't become a twat like all the other twats down there.' I guess on email it came across les harsh, or I just didn't take it that seriously.

A good book I read while we were breaking up was All About Me - Loving a Narcissist.

Also, agree on the 'your stuff is crap' thing. After 6 years of marriage, most of my stuff was still in a pile in the corner of the bedroom, because he wouldn't make space for me to put it away! Plus, every time I put on music I liked, he'd start on 'this is really like another band, except it's crap', until I just gave up listening to music with him there as he never let me enjoy it. Tool!

Everything I did or had was crap, shit, common, embarrassing....be it films, books, music, hobbies, my clothes, my friends, my family....even my taste in shampoo.

YY the crap stuff thing here too... I wonder why I never noticed? I think because he always had to have the best of everything, latest phone, downloaded CDs, films as soon as he saw an advert for them, bought games as soon as they were released (and then traded them back in the next week at about a £30 loss! ) so my stuff would look a bit rubbish next to that... Plus I think I was just used to hanging out with people who put value on things rather than saying, hey, like what you want, nobody cares.

I liked it with now-DP when he admitted that he shared my taste in embarrassing music I am also constantly astounded when young people - people I work with or people from uni - tell me that they like "a bit of everything" or that they aren't embarrassed by any of their music choices etc. Must have just been the people I hung around with, but if you didn't listen to the stuff which was deemed "okay" then you were basically the most uncool person in the history of the world ever

Yeh I can relate to exH needing the best quality in everything, branded clothes, new cd's as soon as they came out, most expensive dish on the menu, best phone, expensive wine etc etc while the rest of us in the house were eating the cheap brands of stuff and and squeezing the life out of a toothpaste tube to get the very last bit out and turning shampoo bottles upside down!

Parsley Sunny Your posts have just reminded me about one of my ex's.

I had a colcoscopy and a cone biopsy when DS was nearly 2. I had the procedure on the Saturday and was signed off work for a week. Ex was supposed to take DS to the childminder in the mornings and pick him up in the evening - which he did. I, however, had to get up early, stagger about and get DS ready to go to the childminder, give him his breakfast and sort out his meals for the day. Ex had the arse all week because he couldn't disappear straight after work and go drinking until 8pm every night.

Then, a while later, he was in a dreadful mood and the gist of it is that after he went to the loo, he'd get a drip of wee coming out after he'd finished. He tearfully told me he thought he had cancer and I was horrified that he'd kept this to himself and told him that we'd get to the doctor and try to get it sorted. A couple of weeks later, during a bit of a snitty exchange, I asked him what had happened to the doctor's appointment. He sneered at me and told me that it must have been something he'd picked up from me because since we'd stopped having sex, it had gone......

Bear in mind that I'd just had a colcoscopy AND a cone biopsy..... I never got over how cruel he was. We split up a few months later.

I had DD when DS was 10. I had to have an emergency CS and only found out then that I would never have been able to give birth naturally, but should never have conceived, let alone carry a baby to (nearly) term - they had cut out that much.

I am still with my h, but I wanted to add to this thread, because there is a big difference between what he was and what he is now (since November).

These are things which I will never tolerate again. He has taken responsibility for them through counselling and later, and he has committed to changing. The signs are very good, six months on.

? Declared a year- long passion for me (he was ?in love? with me ) from day one
? Didn?t like my ex partners
? Didn?t like socialising with others or weekends away
? Didn?t like me away for my job, in the early days, through jealousy
? Anxious about me earning more than him, but denied it
? Didn?t like alot of men in my family much
? Didn?t like my friends much and some not at all
? Didn?t like confident successful men
? Unwilling to take fair share of work with kids/home
? Revealed bits of his past very slowly, some not for over 20 years
? Used a ?political/social? response to everything as an excuse not to take responsibility
? Agreed to do a few domestic jobs if I took the kids out for the day, then sat on the sofa watching films until I was nearly home again, and later admitted it for fun in company
? Used humour to deflect, with me and others
? Was a workaholic, but couldn?t see it
? Prioritised free time with himself over kids and/or me; his hobbies (termed finally at Relate by him as ?passionate interests?) needed to be fitted in at all costs
? Bit by bit changed passwords to all sorts of things, and always denied it
? Ignored my health issues, to the extent of working when he should have collected me from hospital after an operation, and including once when it meant I couldn?t actually agree an inpatient treatment (intravenous antibiotics), so I had to persuade doctor to let me be treated at home
? Manipulative in conversations and kept them going as long as it took in order to win
? Never really listened to my viewpoint, except in order to challenge, control or ignore it
? Was mostly defensive in any difficult discussion
? Lied endlessly
? Sex chatted OW for 5 years, denying all, and gaslighted me
? Called me controlling if I complained (although in retrospect that was partly true), but admitting finally that he wanted to control me

I have found putting the past down on paper in this way cathartic, so thank you ladies.

Hmmm

Too good to be true

Early protestations of love and wanting babies

Drip-feeding info about exes which suggested they were deranged stalkers

Showing me naked pics of exes - as if by accident, oops, didn't realise that was in there

Driving dangerously with me in passenger seat, getting angry when I flinched in fear

Hated - really hated his mother

Walking so fast I could barely keep up when we were supposed to be together

Could never get on with any of his immediate bosses, always thought they were jealous/trying to steal credit from him

My ex partner told me that his 'ideal woman' was his mother!

All these posts are reminding me of more:

The competition. He had to be better than me at everything, I wasn't allowed to just be good at anything.

He even took up knitting to show me how it should be done.

The care and consideration shown to strangers but not to his own family.

I had a breast lump removed in hospital and while waiting for him to bring the car to reception to pick me up, a market researcher started questioning me about my stay. As I was still in pain and feeling very low, I told her I couldn't speak to her.

He, on the other hand told me I 'could at least have answered her questions'. Bastard.

Poopooinmytoes, your story is incredible. I hope you are well on the road to recovery.

Mealiepudding. Thank you, yes Im fine. It was quite a few years ago now although this thread brought it all back. I was surprised you said it was incredible . . . I guess you are right, i did go through quite a lot there!!!

Wobbly, a very insightful post back there (number one problem ...)

AbitWobblyNow - thank you for articulating what I've been wanting to express for ages but couldn't find the right words to type.

That's what got and kept me in my relationship troubles - I believe that an individual is always an individual whether they be in a relationship or not and should be able to determine their life and actions according to their own wants and wishes.

That's why I so often found it almost impossible to tell the men I'd formed attachments with to 'stop doing or being abc and be more xyz instead'

If only I'd realised that the twats I'd chosen had absolutely no interest in letting me be my own unique self and appreciating me for it, I'd have saved myself a lot of heartache.

This one's a combination of Red Flags and signs of a good 'un. Go, grandma Carmela www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2132727/Many-men-PIGS-They-want-sex-day-You-obligated-say-yes-feel-86-year-old-writes-letter-advice-granddaughter.html#addComment

Arguing with my friends.
Disliking my family.
Being rude to strangers.
Gambling
Having to borrow money on our first date.
Debit card not working at the supermarket.
Getting off with one of my friends at a party.
Drinking half a bottle of whisky far too often.
Throwing glasses at the wall.
Sulking if he didn't get sex.

What the fuck was I on?

I'm not sure we want to change them.

Part of the problem, I think, is that we fall in love with what they present initially and we hope that they go back to that and the twatiness is just a "phase" or think it's something we caused.

Ultimately they feed off our love, and keep it going just enough that we don't feel we should leave.
Funny how often they wait until we have invested quite a lot before becoming more openly abusive. Get married, have children, financially dependent.

At least most women don't fall for obvious twats and hope to change them, I don't think.