When does a slap become abuse?

[TheRhubarb]

Now I realise this will get a very emotive response so if you feel that you are getting upset by this thread then please do hide it. I am not here to play on anyone's feelings but I have been wondering about something for a couple of days now and wanted other people's opinions.

I have seen a few threads on Mumsnet where a parent has become really angry with their child and slapped them in anger. They are then very remorseful, come onto Mumsnet and for the most part they are consoled and told that it wasn't all their fault, that it can happen to the most patient of us, etc etc.

Yet someone can post about their partner giving them a slap once, in anger, in the heat of an argument. That partner can be full of remorse but they are a violent bully and the other person a victim of domestic abuse.

So I wanted to know where the distinction lies? Why is it different to slap children and not adults? Is there any distinction between lashing out in rage once and repeated abuse over a period of time?

I'm not here to defend any form of violence or aggression by the way, I am just curious as to what is the difference between slapping a child and an adult and why they both get very different responses on Mumsnet.

I can't prevent it going off track and I'm sure any debate which arises will be interesting and worthwhile but I still want to challenge this notion that a smack against a child in anger is somehow justifiable whereas a smack against an adult in anger is not.

This isn't about discipline, it's about losing your temper, perhaps just the once. Replace the woman on the receiving end with a child and somehow that suddenly has a different response.

i think in that case you really only want answers from people who do think it's ok to hit children.

Perhaps it's different because most of us were slapped as children?

IAmBooyhoo - do I? I'd also like to know from people who don't think it's ok as they must also have observed the distinction and formed their own theories or have their own experiences to share.

Posie, ok but if you were slapped as a woman would you be of the opinion that it's justifiable in some instances?

Thinking of a whole list of excuses that parents have recourse to which just would not cut it with an abusive violent man. Obviously, I think there is no distinction.
I think the:
'I lost it' is still used and still carries weight even against women.
Less convincing are:
'I was scared'
'I was keeping them safe'
Another difference is that a woman can go to the police, to a friend to some external body that will validate her feeling that violence has been perpetrated in anger against her. Who the Flying F* is a 2-yr- old supposed to tell?
However, on the whole, I believe that society tolerates extreme levels of violence withing the family, that would earn prison sentences outside.

Sorry, haven't had time to read all posts.

Just wanted to say that I have noticed the defence between mum giving the children a slap and dad doing it. Like you say, when its mum they are consoled and told it happens to us all. When its dad all hell breaks loose.

You need to protect your children.

Leave him.

It will happen again.

How dare he hit a child.

Etc etc.

I seem to remember one where the dad had tapped the child with his foot and it soon escalated into He had kicked her. I think there was another where a dad had been bitten and lashed out in pain. If that had been a woman the response would have likely been Well we all lash out in pain just try not to let it happen again.

Why is this? Why is it understandable but regrettable when its a woman but completely unacceptable when its a man?

Actually i think he didn't even lash out. I think he pushed the bitting child to the floor. Memory fuzzy.

PooPooInMyToes - loving the name by the way . That is a bloody good point. I've seen that happen too.

ionysis why are you so sneery of parents who dont hit? why do you assume people who dont hit have brats rather than well behaved children? free range is a term used to describe chickens not children BTW.

It was the addition of "no naughty step" etc not specifically the hitting which made me go . I think its perfectly possible to maintain good discipline without hitting. Not that I object to the occasional slap on the leg in certain circumstances.

My question was genuinely, how DO you discipline you child if you can't give them a time out, OR hit them OR "infringe on their right to dignity" or whatever. What else do you do? Take toys away? Is that deprivation? Ground them? Is that enforcing social isolation / controlling behaviour?

That brings us back round to TheRhubarb's original post - what is considered suitable or appropriate behaviour towards a child is not acceptable for an adult relationship.

If my husband lies to me or overspends or calls me a rude name it wouldn't be acceptable for me to ban him from going out, take his playstation away or remove his TV priviledges. All of which are considered appropriate punishments for a child.

The underlying point being what other posters have already made - a parent's JOB is to set and enforce boundaries for their children to encourage them to develop self-discipline and become value adding members of society. An adult is expected to be mature enough to determine and self-police their OWN boundaries and it would be controlling and abusive to deny someone this autonomy.

"If you post two separate threads, describing incidents of an adult losing their temper and hitting once in anger but one thread included a child and the other an adult. The adult one would be swamped with calls of domestic violence and abuse whereas the other involving the child would largely get sympathy and similar experiences from other parents."

i don't think that's totally true - you seem to be skimming over the fact that most posts on here describing domestic violence are from women on the receiving end of it, whereas most posts on here describing hitting a child are from the mother of the child in question. i think if a woman posts saying she hit her partner she gets similar advice to a woman looking for support after she hit her child in temper.

TheR. No, I think there a power divide between adults and children. As a child that was hit by her father into her twenties and watched her mother hit, still, I am pretty opposed to hitting at all.

it wouldn't be acceptable for me to ban him from going out, take his playstation away or remove his TV priviledges. All of which are considered appropriate punishments for a child.
Yup, You've guessed it - never did any of that, either.
I think that people confuse the fact that children have less knowledge and experience with the very wrong notion that a consequence of that is that they have less dignity and are deserving of less respect.

well arthritic fingers, i can only assume you had/have delightfully easy children that didnt actually need much parenting, but it would be short sighted of you to assume that your approach would work for everyone

skrumle, that is true.

Ok then, so a man posts that he has hit his wife, that he is full of remorse, that he lost it.
A parent posts that they hit their child, they are full of remorse, they just lost it.

Which would get the most condemnatory posts?

And I think poopoo raised a really good point that needs addressing too. If a father raises his hand against a child why is that worse than a mother doing so?

No, they were/are right pains at times. But aren't we all? Just don't expect anyone to hit me/take away my privilidges when I am being a pain.

To answer the more specific point TheRhubarb makes about the lashing out in anger thing, I personally do not ever think it is OK to hit another person because you have lost your temper. Loss of control resulting in violence is not acceptable towards either an adult or a child, from a practical perspective as much as an ethical one, because it is, de facto, uncontrolled and so potentially dangerous not just painful or humiliating.

If you lose your temper and lash out in anger are you REALLY in control of the amount of force used? Could you hit in the wrong place? Knock the person / child over without meaning to? That could be deadly given the wrong combination of circumstances.

HOWEVER yes, we are all human, yes sometimes we reach breaking point, frustration builds up, we are short on sleep, hormonal, provoked to an extraordinary degree, whatever other combination of circumstances and it overflows. Is it excusable? No. But it is understandable. And if it isn't a pattern of behaviour or a deliberate action but a genuine sign of overwhelming emotional factors I can have sympathy with the perpetrator - whether the person on the recieving end is a child or an adult.

i think the father mother thing is because we are presuming that the mother is the primary caregiver, therefore is bearing the brunt of all the stress.
Also its more acceptable to think the worst of men, yet we want to think that womens actions come from a nurturing place, whether they do or not.

hitting a child would be seen as misguided discipline, but there is no need to discipline an adult because you can always leave these days and you have no responsibility for their behaviour.

Adults do hit each other here and there though and in a lot of circles it still isnt really looked on in horror. People fighting on nights out etc, some relationships may have physical fights that noone will ever know about and neither perceives it as abuse

So arthritic fingers do you not believe in punishing criminal behaviour either?

ionysis to say you have sympathy with the perpetrator of a man who lashed out at his wife once because he reached breaking point would get you short shrift on Mumsnet. But you are 'allowed' to have sympathy with the parent who reaches breaking point.

That's the bit I find interesting.

An acquaintance of my DH has over the course of months and years systematically verbally and emotionally abused her husband in the most horrific fashion. They have been together seince their teens. She has posted degrading personal insults on his facebook page and I have seen her when drunk abuse and berate him screeching like a fishwife poking him in the chest and acting in a very threatening manner.

Finally during a particularly horrendous encounter he snapped and slapped her round the face. She called the police and had him removed from the house then publicly announced to all her friends and both their families that he had assaulted her. The ramifications for the guy were tremendous, both at work and on the relationship he has with his kids. All I could think when I heard about it, and I know I may get flamed for this, was "good grief what took you so long, I would have belted her years ago!".

Yes, he could and should have left the relationship. No it was absolutely not right for him to hit her. But oh yes, I sympathised with him. Very much.

I've been with DP for nearly 20 years. We've been very angry with each other at times, but never ever come anywhere close to hitting each other. If he ever hit me (or I him), I'm not sure I would consider it abuse. But I would consider it unforgivable.

If he slapped my hand away from a hot stove to save me hurting myself, I'd be grateful!

ionysis Didn't know we were discussing penal reform - interesting, indeed, as that subject is?
Also didn't know that being a pain was a criminal offense.
Neither, of course is posting insults on FB or screeching like a fishwife, albeit in a threatening manner.
Now hitting another person is a criminal offense and always has been.
Now that is a difference, Rhubarb; just when will hitting children carry the same implications?

Hmm I think we all could in that situation.
However there are some who would vehemently disagree.

The are some very strange distinctions surrounding
a) hitting a child out of temper
b) a father hitting a child versus a mother hitting a child
c) a man hitting a woman out of temper
d) a woman hitting a man out of temper

I think people have very definite opinions on all of those but as you have illustrated, there are grey areas inbetween and when you find one person excusing one scenario but then condemning another purely because of the change of age or gender rather than situation then it all gets very confusing.

How about simplifying it all:
Hitting People is Wrong

And Rhubarb, I don't get what you don't get about the difference between a parent hitting a child and a husband hitting a wife (or vice versa).

Many will say both situations are wrong/abusive.

Those who think that smacking is acceptable will say it is because the nature of relationship btwn a parent and child is completely different to that btwn two adult partners.

It's a utterly different relationship. It's okay to make my child go to bed at 7.30 even if they don't want/ to make them sit at the table until they've taken at least one bite of the unfamiliar food/ to control their access to money and friends/ to tell them they can't leave the house until they've brushed their teeth. If a woman came on Mumsnet and told us her husband wouldn't let her go out with her friends because he thought they were a bad influence, we'd all tell her to leave the bastard. And we'd be right.