Long time lurker in need

[Pralines]

Hi all,

here's the problem.

I've been with my now husband for 8 years, married almost 2. early 30s. Trying for a baby.

My husband is my world. We have a loving relationship, and generally we are happy.

BUT...

When I met my DH... let's say he was in a bad place - I don't really want to go into that, but he had had experienced mental health issues had no support and was floating. He was ashamed of this and there was a lot I didn't find out until a while later.

The immediate issue is that last year I found out he had a credit card balance for a year he reassured he he didn't owe a penny. Now, we were supposed to be paying off all our debt to try to save to be able to move. This all came out in November huge meltdown tears the lot and I sorted it by balance transferring and sorting a budget. We dont live hand-to-mouth our credit card debt (I have a car loan and a mortgage) is less than 16% of our annual income but I am cautious of redundancy in this climate and we really do not need to be in debt considering how much we earn.

So I have access to his bank accounts. And I looked today. And I have found a balance on the card that we balance transferred.

I am so fucked off. I have had a bad day at work, I'm unfertilised after 18 months of trying (not a problem for me as such at present) and I have told him not to bother coming home as this isn't the first time he has run up a balance and I am just sick of it.

There is a lot more, I do not want to drip feed but I guess you wont want an essay. Please feel free to ask questions.

And thank you in advance.

Whoops - question - How do I deal with this? I've done the tears, the shouting. The 'what else do you lie about', I envision myself in 40 years time in a bedsit looking at him wondering why did I stay with a spendthrift liar.

Mumsy, I appreciate you are trying to give the "other" viewpoint and demontsrate that a marriage can still work even with such a problem within it

OP doesn't want it to work the way it is though, and you seem to be advocating that she should suck it up and suggesting that he is acting out because she has attempted to control him

it may have worked for you, but really if my husband caused me "lot of heartbreak over the years" for this or any other reason, I wouldn't be indulging his "Achilles Heel", I would be re-assessing my options and finding him wanting

Hi Pralines (nice name), just reading through your post and all the other posts on your thread - I can understand how horrible it feels, finding out the rate and amount of spending that you both can't afford. I don't know if dirty is the word I'd use - more like ?fear ?insecurity - the feeling that I have seen relatives whose spouses gambled, to find that they had no money left for their kids to go to college. No money to fix the car. And always that constant feeling of when the money is going to be gone, and how much extra work or scrimping they would have to do to pay off the debt. Whether they'd lose the roof over their heads. Overspending is a lot like compulsive gambling, I guess.

I don't know if you've ever watched the BBC3 or BBC4 series "Spendaholics" - if you have, you'll know what I mean. His spending seems to be compulsive, like he can't stop himself doing it though he agrees in theory he shouldn't. I think - just like the people profiled in the series - he should indeed go for counselling (I think CBT would cover it) to get to the root of why he does it. It's not a moral issue - I think there is something deep rooted that is driving him to do it. And until he can address that cause and learn to overcome it in a way that doesn't put him and his wife at risk of becoming homeless (I know you're nowhere near that yet but that is the reality of what his behaviour could lead to) then cutting off the credit cards is an absolute essential. You're not babying him. You're starting him on the first step towards addressing this compulsion - it's almost an illness. Many people live without a credit card - I have friends who do this to help their budgeting and prevent overspending. You'll need to cut off the debit card too - overdrawing on a debit card nowadays automatically adds on an immediate fine which itself starts accumulating interest and further penalties (it's worse than a credit card).

Lots of people manage without a credit card, some people I know still don't use debit cards other than as ID or a form of cheque guarantee. He's not being deprived - he still has the £600 the budget allows; it will just be in notes and coins, not at the click of a button or wave of a card. I expect that will mean you withdraw cash for him every week. Sounds drastic I know - but serious problems call for serious measures. Nobody needs internet retailers like Amazon - the world ran very smoothly long before the likes of Amazon came along. He can store his spare cash in a box or locked drawer like our grandparents did. Perhaps once he sees what it is like not to use plastic, the importance of sticking to a budget will become clearer. But he will need to go for the CBT/ counselling, to get to the root of why he's doing it.

This is serious - marriage and divorce statistics will show that money issues are just as potentially damaging to a relationship as infidelity. If he can come through the therapy and cold turkey (no cards at all, just cash and sticking to a budget) well and continue not to overspend, then there is a future for the marriage. But if he cannot, then sooner or later, it will destroy your relationship I'm afraid.

Mumsyblouse - I think it was more the fact that the spending was in secret in a card account that was supposed to be closed, rather than the fact that he wanted to buy something. It's secrecy and compulsion which is the problem, not the desire to buy a smarter car as opposed to a cheaper one, or whether to take a holiday in winter or not.

Morning all.

Just lost a post. Damn.

Anyway - I was asking any fucker if she thought I was still in denial/burying head and if my plan was just prolonging the inevitable.

I asked what's different this time compared with Nov - he said he didn't deal with it last time. That this time he IS going to counselling and will sort it. I'm wondering if I should have just left in nov.

I don't get it. Your OH is doing something, something he arranged himself after what seems to be a productive talk between you. Isn't he now doing something to address his problem? Isn't that what you want? No good everyone second guessing that it won't work.

my father sounds a bit like your DP. Now in my 30s, I have grown up with a father who is a secret compulsive spender. still is, or at least tries to be. It's horrible, often found my doormat mother crying over him spending their savings on complete ridiculous stuff. He gets a kick out of spending, 100s of pounds at a time, then feels guilty and hides his purchases. I have always hated that i don't have a responsible father, like everyone else. He is pathetic. Now he has very little access to money but tries to 'borrow' from me and my sister, saying he'll pay us back. ha. he has a little pot where he keeps pound coins that he steals when he sees money lying around the house, or if he has a bit of change from doing a supermarket shop he keep a little bit for himself. Really pathetic. Angry with my mum too for never properly sorting this. They have lost hundreds of thousands over the years due to him. And no habits such as gambling etc. Just thought I'd put in a different perspective. doesn't add much to what you are going through right now, but definitely a reason to make sure it gets sorted.

@ pink - yes I'm generally happy with all you've mentioned. But I'm scared that it won't work and I'm being weak by giving it a go.

Jack - no where near as bad as that but my mum was a bit like that. I remember getting into their bed as a kid waking up dad who realised mum had been bawling because she was in so much debt. Massive row. Amazing thing was dad had more than enough to cover it. Funnily enough she never uses cards now... But the memory has always run deep with me.

IMHO you are being strong by giving it a go!

sorry, pralines, I didn't realise you were addressing me with that specific question

can I just clear up a possible misunderstanding, and a common criticism of these boards

OP asks for advice on a problem. People give her/him advice in the clearest possible terms with the relative ease of not being in that difficult position. Or after having been in it, but now looking the useful lens of hindsight

Nobody nows if he will come through this time, pralines, even himself no matter how much he promises. People are trying to show you a clear path, and pre-empt any obstacles along the way. We can see the pitfalls and are pointing them out to you.

It's up to you how you navigate them, or even whether you take any notice at all of any of us.

I don't think you should leave him (this time) as you are still prepared to give him this chance. I think my first long post to you setting out how you should handle it is the best way, not necessarily the easiest way and you have taken on board most of it. It's not up to me though, is it ? One big think in his favour is that he read this thread and didn't dismiss us all as load of joyless, frigid keyboard warriors

I guess what I am saying is, don't make it easy for him. Make sure you are not carrying him through this, because if you do, he won't change.

I do worry though, that you want a baby and your wanting a baby may just be over-riding your resolve (very understandably, it's an immenseley strong pull) to not live like this. Only you know if that is the case.

one more thing, love, I don't think it is your strength that is in question here

Poor you. I'd try and keep control of the finances as much as you can. Sometimes, it's the best scenario when the responsible person takes control. I do in our household and like your DH, mine has £600 per month to play with. I'm pissed this month as I didn't transfer money in time before his big 40th and he he blew most of the money on his party and a gift for himself....grrrr. He said he's going to sort it out and he has to before the 23rd when our living costs are taken from the account. I also strongly agree with the comments that the more deprived upbringing can lead to irresponsible spending later on.

I wouldn't worry about taking the cc away as it seems to be the most sensible thing to do.

Pralines - you may find this book useful in challenging your thinking about money: The Little Money Book

It may help you put things in perspective.

Hi all,

Can only repsond briefly for now.

Babies - To be honest, I possibly have about 15 years to have children. I don't want to wait that long, but it is not an urgent thing for me. I have skirted the baby issue because it is not typical in the sense that he wants children more than me - he hasn't railroaded me into trying btw. I still feel a little too young and independant to have children and I'll always feel that way. But I know that if and when I do I'll be absolutely fine (well as far as new mothers can be - i have a lot of experience with children).

Incidentally, it has occured to me that this financial issue is why we were slowly ttc-ing (remember it has been 18 months). I'm thinking I subconsciously held back.

Bills/accounts - I have full control. How it works is that we pool money on paper just not accounts, remove our personal spends then the rest goes to bills, savings, debt repayment. Our personal spends pay for travel to work, lunches, social and clothes. No household expenses come out of it as that is paid via the house's account which is my name only.

Strength/weakness - I am wondering if I am staying out of weakness. Because I would find it very, very difficult to be without him indefinately. Because all said and done I am happy in this relationship and I know that i have a man who looks after me and cherishes me. Up to the finances of course ;O)

Got to dash!

I don't know if you should give him another chance, it is always a judgment call. But take care, you sound so absolute when you say you have 15 years to have children and you will be absolutely fine as a new mum. You have no control over those things whatsoever, my second child was very unwell and I could not bring myself to return to work so I am in a new position of being dependent of DH to earn enough

You need a partner who you trust enough to ride the terrible, scary rollercoaster of life with, not just a person you get along really well with while you control everything.

I can think of a thousand scenarios where he might have to get in the driving seat for a while because you can't - stay with him if you can trust him to take over. I don't think you would trust him to take over - which means he isn't good bet for the future. Because like it or not, life is totally out of our control and bad shit happens to most of us.

Gosh I am really torn on all of this - so can only imagine how you feel Pralines:

a) I actually agree with Mumsy to a large degree. We do all have flaws and vices. I could have left my husband over his heavy drinking and smoking addicition many times. I'm so very glad I didn't. Because 90% of him and what we have is so great and we have a very solid, happy marriage and family life. Also he now has both under control (drinks less and finally gave up smoking January 2010).

b) I totally agree that financial strain (and repeated lies) can and probably will erode a marriage eventually. It's serious stuff.

c) I absolutely hear what PullUpAPew is saying - you must read her post and take it seriously. You can't predict the future and once you've had a baby, you may find yourself reliant on a very unreliable man,

d) Amazonian's posts should a huge warning for you. SEPERATE YOUR FINANCES! COMPLETELY! NOW!

Pralines - I'm afraid I don't believe that you have put the TTC on the back burner. Firstly you have been slightly hazy on this one and not actually said you'd stopped trying, only that 'it hasn't happened'. Alsoall of us women on here know that once you are on the TTC train it is very very hard to step off it again. Be very careful.

You're very perceptive, Pralines. He's a lucky man!

I will have to stay out of the "what to do" side of things because I've got ishoos with money, too. I'm fantastic at the big stuff - making money work, optimising interest deals, and so forth. But, to me, "finance" is kind of abstract - like optimising a business budget - whereas personal spending is a shambolic mess of misplaced emotions. I am currently extremely poor and scrape by on a poverty budget. It's probably good for me (said through gritted teeth.)

Before things went tits up and I got therapised, I was aware that I used spending as a substitute for love, self-worth and confidence. But, it seemed, whenever I discussed it with my pals, 90% of them were the same. After all, our society encourages it; you only have to look at the not-so-subtle messages in advertisements to see that! Difference, for me, is that "Because I'm worth it" didn't refer to a treat so much as a basic need. When you feel 'worthless' the suggestion you can buy some 'worth' is seductive ... even when you bloody work in advertising and know what's going on

It's eight years since I completely crashed and burned. Ten years since I booked my first therapist. I spend less in a whole month, now, than I used to spend on lunch with the girls. The week before last, I bought £180 worth of things I "needed" but could have lived without. On poor people's credit (39%apr, will be around 150% in reality by the time it's paid.) My finger hovered over the checkout button for THREE DAYS. Eventually I caved. I admitted I was feeling very down, lonely, etc, and I admitted I was acting out. But I still bought ... and still feel good about my purchases

I can probably admit that last part thanks to the therapy. The 'old' me would have felt dreadful, weak, worthless ... and we all know what I did to fix that feeling, don't we? It's called retail therapy for a reason!

OK, so there I've added to your confessional replies about what this behaviour feels like and how deep the issues are. I need to point out to you what seems obvious: When you and H got together you rescued him, yes? I mean, I'm sure it was more than adopting a sad dog, but nonetheless your relationship was founded on your being strong and sorting him out.

If your getting married was conditional on his getting sorted out, I'm afraid that was grossly unfair on the BOTH of you. Even worse, it meant you were both signing up to a relationship which you did not have.

I need to ask you (both?) to have a good hard think about that.

Oh, and Mr Praline - Write yourself two very big notices! Keep them in front of you, and make mental copies even bigger! [1] If I can afford that, do I want it or need it? [2] I am spending instead of feeling. Take time out.

Good luck, both ...

More food for thought! To reply again to some issues:

1. Babies - seriously, I am too cautious and not reckless enough to add pressure on to a marriage that currently has an issue. At present I highly doubt we will be having bedroom relations let alone TTC. It's why i have largely ignored it here - it is a non issue as we are not continuing to try while we are sorting or he is sorting these issues. I don't need the extra burden, he does not need the extra pressure. I will spend a pregnancy worrying about everything anyway - I do not need to add checking for cc balances to that list.

1. Our finances are separate. Apart from Amazonian's point re if we divorced - he was shocked when I told and explained this last night. Looked fairly guilty as well. I am not overly worried about that because the amounts are not large enough to swallow me if I had to take 100% of it. Not that I am excusing it for if he carries on in ten years I probably would not be able to say the same.

1. I think his problem is underlined by unresolved emotional issues. I did not 'save' him as such. It is not my way (remember I said I have suffered depression/anxiety as well, well before we met and for a prolonged period). When we married I wasn't saving him. We had worked through issues long before I got a ring on my finger! And had a long engagement (2 years I think). I do not run a counselling session nor can I change a person. He has to do this himself, for himself and only after that - for me.

1. Going forward I have made a decision because while I am glad I posted here and have had some more than valid opinions and advice from both spectrums batting ideas back and forward is paralysing me. so:

4.a I am staying put on the caveat that I will do so for as long as I/he/we do not end up here again.

4.b I am not taking ownership of these problems - they are not mine to own. I will be supportive from behind but I will not take a lead nor will I (or have I in the past 2 days) given out leading questions or advised of what he should do, because if he wants to save this he will bloody well lead it himself.

4.c In September I will be returning here regardless. I would put what I hope he would have achieved by that point, but I wont as he is still reading and this needs to be his actions as per 4.b (I am happy to personal message it as I have it all listed).

DH - You need to do this. And not just for me or us, but for yourself first.

Really, you sound great Pralines :)

Waving a pom-pom from the sidelines!

Very thoughtful, loving and clear-headed resolution pralines. Now stick with your resolve. he has to do this himself. Too right.

Do it DH.

Definately a mini-update

He broke down @ work yesterday. UA's point about if we divorced and financial disclosure ran deep. Although I have said many a time that he is stealing my future (I want to move you see) he apparently hadn't taken it in before. He said although he has always known it affects me the realisation that it REALLY affects me struck deep.

He said it suddenly punched him in the stomach yesterday and to top things off our underground marriage/first dancy thing song came on a distant stereo at that point and he broke down. Twas me pissing myself laughing at the irony and cruelty on the central line last night. For some reason I find that the song came on at that time hilarious - it very, very rarely gets played in nightclubs, is over 20 years old and never made it in the charts!

We had another chat yesterday about his feelings of inadequacy and the damage done to our marriage. More him talking to me (yey me - I'm managing to STFU!)

Anyway, he has this thread bookmarked and I am re-reading and have diarised a reminder to read it once a week.

UA - I'm surprised re your last post. Are you seeing a glimmer of hope? You have given us a really, really hard time and I am so grateful for it. For I needed to hear it as did he. And I continue to read your story and opinions as a reminder of where this financial gomorrah can and will lead.

Thank you

Definately a mini-update

He broke down @ work yesterday. UA's point about if we divorced and financial disclosure ran deep. Although I have said many a time that he is stealing my future (I want to move you see) he apparently hadn't taken it in before. He said although he has always known it affects me the realisation that it REALLY affects me struck deep.

He said it suddenly punched him in the stomach yesterday and to top things off our underground marriage/first dancy thing song came on a distant stereo at that point and he broke down. Twas me pissing myself laughing at the irony and cruelty on the central line last night. For some reason I find that the song came on at that time hilarious - it very, very rarely gets played in nightclubs, is over 20 years old and never made it in the charts!

We had another chat yesterday about his feelings of inadequacy and the damage done to our marriage. More him talking to me (yey me - I'm managing to STFU!)

Anyway, he has this thread bookmarked and I am re-reading and have diarised a reminder to read it once a week.

UA - I'm surprised re your last post. Are you seeing a glimmer of hope? You have given us a really, really hard time and I am so grateful for it. For I needed to hear it as did he. And I continue to read your story and opinions as a reminder of where this financial gomorrah can and will lead.

Thank you

Sorry, but I meant to give you a really hard time, as this kind of betrayal re finances can absolutely ruin a marriage - or any friendship/partnership for that matter.

You yourself have been very clear about how you intend to deal with it, and if your husband still doesn't step up to the plate and stop destroying your respect and love for him, then it will be best to call time. I hope that his 'breakdown' was genuine and not something he has told you to squeeze yet another dollop of sympathy from you.

My exHusband sometimes used to cry, and wring his hands saying 'I can't help being poor' but he wasn't poor ffs. It's just that his idea of being poor meant not being able to buy hideously expensive food and wine, tons of stuff on amazon, Paul Smith shirts at 100 quid a pop and 75 quid ties for his 18k a year annual salary. [green]

He also inherited a stash of cash, and spent it like water as fast as he could.

It was a nightmare.

But he never changed I am afraid to say: he felt that he was entitled to money. And when he did a runner he even stole the entire 8 thousand pounds from his own two young daughters post office accounts, as well as raiding our joint current account's ten grand overdraft limit, to fund a fresh lifestyle abroad.

It's a very difficult habit to break and with my ex it just escalated over the years.

If your DH doesn't sort it he can wave goodbye to any future with you and say hello to a shit credit rating that will mean he will be unable to get a mortgage, overdraft, loan, credit card or even cheque book.

Good luck.

Fucking hell - I don't know what's shocked me more the ties/salary combo or the theft.

Yes - I did consider the possibility of a sob story - but I know my husband and he's not quite that man - not yet. I doubt he has lied about that. Emotional blackmail isn't his forte.

As said - I was/am grateful for all you said. It was and has been painful reading but it is honest and I have taken it all on board. I was thanking you for it really.

So, I've name changed but wanted to give an update.

I have been putting this off since September, but I hoped it was possible my/our story may help someone and also because I'd hate to help someone and not know what the end results were.

I haven't read back this post but so much happened after. My husband was hounded out of work and his life took a tail spin down while he stuck his head in the sand. I had a lot going on and wasn't at home much.

So I travel with work, come back and find out he tried to commit suicide. I posted here under another name at the time to get help as he disclosed all sorts of things to me but the big one was that he was raped as a child. I/we got mental health services involved and are undergoing couples counselling in addition to his own.

His behaviour was down to childhood abuse and the legacy of it. My husband isn't transformed as such, but he is so much happier. When I was debating leaving he said he was going to therapy anyway as he was so exhausted, tired and fed up of not living a true life and he had had enough. We both ended up depressed I ended up horrifically anxious, but it seems the worst is over hopefully. He is dealing with his problems, the abuse and other traumatic things that happened to him and I am undergoing soft touch treatment for the way that I worry excessively.

There is a fair bit I have included here, but I think I have the important bits. I'm dealing with a toxic parent and am suffering 'black sheep syndrome' where my family are concerned. I have debated posting here, but I will probably be told what the books have said, what I know, what my friends have said - I cannot change my family I have to deal with the family I was dealt. (This might sound garbled, but in a nutshell when my life was imploding and my mother knew I was struggling with life and my husband she did nothing. Apart from blame me for everything that had happened because I am always negative about life).

We have been happy, while under therapy of course, for around 3 months now and are building our lives back. In particular he is building his life again and is enjoying life as it is. He is more confident, has better self esteem and is way more open with everything.

I cannot thank you all enough for your help. I may actually post regarding other issues and I hope to start passing on the help as far as I can under another name.

I hope I've made sense here.

Sorry - when I say he isn't transformed, I mean there hasn't been a blot of lightening and a Clark Kent/ superman transformation! As far as I am aware there are no lies.

I speak here of happiness as if it is pralines and cream - it isn't, we do not and have not shied away from all that has happened, but we are not in the horrid depths of despair that we got to. I spent a week in bed not talking, eating etc. but we are well away from that.