Long time lurker in need

[Pralines]

Hi all,

here's the problem.

I've been with my now husband for 8 years, married almost 2. early 30s. Trying for a baby.

My husband is my world. We have a loving relationship, and generally we are happy.

BUT...

When I met my DH... let's say he was in a bad place - I don't really want to go into that, but he had had experienced mental health issues had no support and was floating. He was ashamed of this and there was a lot I didn't find out until a while later.

The immediate issue is that last year I found out he had a credit card balance for a year he reassured he he didn't owe a penny. Now, we were supposed to be paying off all our debt to try to save to be able to move. This all came out in November huge meltdown tears the lot and I sorted it by balance transferring and sorting a budget. We dont live hand-to-mouth our credit card debt (I have a car loan and a mortgage) is less than 16% of our annual income but I am cautious of redundancy in this climate and we really do not need to be in debt considering how much we earn.

So I have access to his bank accounts. And I looked today. And I have found a balance on the card that we balance transferred.

I am so fucked off. I have had a bad day at work, I'm unfertilised after 18 months of trying (not a problem for me as such at present) and I have told him not to bother coming home as this isn't the first time he has run up a balance and I am just sick of it.

There is a lot more, I do not want to drip feed but I guess you wont want an essay. Please feel free to ask questions.

And thank you in advance.

Whoops - question - How do I deal with this? I've done the tears, the shouting. The 'what else do you lie about', I envision myself in 40 years time in a bedsit looking at him wondering why did I stay with a spendthrift liar.

Well you have to give him the opportunity to turn himself round. Doesn't mean you can't guard against him not doing so - which it sounds like you have.

I'm ashamed to say this but your dh could be me. My dp payed off an enormous credit card bill for me. I mean enormous. I was hugely grateful, ashamed of myself but so grateful to him for taking the stress of the repayments off of me.

But I got another card, despite promising him I wouldn't. It is wrong but it wasn't done in a malicious way. I don't know why I did it really. Only bought stuff for the kids, not me.

What I'm trying to say to the OP is that I'll bet he isn't doing it to take the piss or because he doesn't care what you think of him, or he's not grateful. My guess is he somehow can't help it, thinks he's got things under control, can pay it off no problem.

Talk to him but don't be too harsh. I bet he's not doing it purposely. I bet his spending is out of control and he likes buying other people nice things. That was me.

I have improved a bit, paid the majority of the card off and don't use it now. But I dread dp finding out I've got it.

All I can say is that I haven't done it through disrespect or lack of love for him, and I bet your dh is the same OP

At pink - I come from a family of well... independent women. Those financial arrangements are no relation whatsoever to our issues. They are just how it is. I'd be the same with anyone.

My parents have pretty much the same arrangements as it goes and they have been married forever. It isn't a trust thing - it is a self-preservation thing.

@ Name change. My sympathies to you. You sound very similar to my husband and I see the pain in his eyes when it comes out. If he wasn't my husband I would have more patience. But seeing as our finances are linked (maybe not on paper but they are. If we need milk and no one has money WE won't get milk).

I have had to be harsh because this is just too much for me - I have to think about me too.

Relating my position to your husbands - it is such a let down. It is not about the money. It's about having a partner who you are willing and able and are equal with who doesn't believe they are worthy of that. And it hurts, because I want the best for my husband. And I bet yours wants the best for you. It's about striving for the best future for me and him and us and having that stolen away due to bits and bobs that didn't need to be purchased or could have been purchased without creating debt.

I bet you look at the statements and see lists and lists of under £50 purchases not realising that those purchases add up. And you look one day and your like shit - it's £3k. How the hell did that happen? Because he has done similar in the past.

I would advise you to tell our husband about the card. Reason being is that if my husband came to me and said 'Pralines. I've run up a bill, I am paying t off and I don't want your help with that but it bothers me that I've done it again' I would cry with relief. Because it hurts me that while I am enjoying whatever it is that we are doing the poor man cannot because of the secrets and lies and guilt. If he came to me I'd know we had turned a corner.

Thank you for your message. We are two sides of the same coin methinks. And your message has been helpful. I hope mine is too.

Incidentally, it has just occurred to me that money is an emotive thing. Not having any can make a person feel dirty. Having loads can make a person feel top dog. Would you consider that the issue you have and I have is an emotional reaction to how you feel about yourself?

Which links in with bogeyface's point re deprived childhood and from my discussion last night - feelings of inadequacy.

Good luck.x

Wow pralines, lots to think about there!

Initial gut thoughts - yes to the lots if things under £50 adding up and up to silly money. That is exactly the scenario.

I haven't told him as I don't want to see his disappointment in me.

In terms of a back story. For me it wasn't an unhappy or poor childhood. I was lucky and lived comfortably and was well provided for. But we met when we were in our 30's, I'd always earned good money but I moved away from my home to live with him in a comparatively deprived area with poorly paid work and no work in my industry at all. I can only give the excuse that I carried on living my old lifestyle without the wherewithal to fund it

I don't think I can tell him but hearing your point of view had helped and I have never told anyone else about thus before so you have helped me. Thank you.

I hope you can sort things out with your dh. I had to say something because I wanted you to see another option away from the 'leave him' shouts.

Twee as it sounds I have managed to control my spending by seeing the saving and paying things off as a challenge and a prize. That is working for me.

Ooh just another thought which may or may not help. My dh worries about money and therefore I try not to discuss it with him so he doesn't fret and tie himself in knots.

Pathetic excuse I realise that is but I wonder if there is an element of your dh not wanting to upset or concern you if he feels in control?

Just another thought.

"My exh was like this. I went through three balance transfers. He won't change. My exh went on to have an affair. Lies and more lies" Oh my! My ExH was exactly the same as PrincessWellington's. Loads of debt, bad at managing money, lying to cover it up and he too went onto have an affair.

@ Name - I hope I have not preached to you or made you feel like I have told you off. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or anything nor behave in a superior way.

So the reasoning is different. That makes sense to me. And I understand that you do not want to tell him (but please consider my thoughts on disclosure).

And most of all - well done! I am glad you have and are challenging the spending issues it sounds like you are doing great!

I'm glad I could be of some help. Last night I had to repeatedly say - it's not about the money. Forget about the money. And that was the point I was trying to get across to you?

Re childhood - don't get me wrong, he got to go to Disneyworld as a child. I paid for myself to go to Disneyland Paris as an adult! It's a lot to pack and too risky to be outed to explain the childhood thing, but in any case, AF was correct - I shouldn't make excuses for him nor search for them.

Sigh. Remember when you were a kid and a drama was A N Other girl having got A N Other boy's number. I almost long for teenage angst. It'd be easier.

I've mentioned/hinted towards my relationship with money a few times.

I could easy get myself in a tizz over losing £20 quid. And my husband has said the same of me as you have in the past.

I will never be rich, I will never be wealthy - money is not my god, but it does give me options. Hence why I like not owing anyone. And stockpiling it when I can.

No didn't mean you had actively guarded against him - only that your financial arrangements provided a guard iyswim!

Ok, there is a lot of detail in your updates but I would like to pick up on just a couple of points further to what I have said previously

1. he said it "didn't feel good when he was spending". No, it never does. Alcoholics don't "feel good" when they are drinking. They know they are feeding their addiction and doing themselves and their family pschological harm but they do it anyway even though it makes them feel like shit

2. he "needs you to help him"

No. This is not acceptable. That is not taking responsibility. It leaves the onus still on you. If you feel you cannot offer cont'd support, then he can blame his failure on you. He must change that mindset, and you must not go along with it. The responsibility is all his

3. I said it before and you are brushing it off. I don't think you have had the truth about where the money has gone. He has a healthy amount of post-bills cash. What has he been spending it on ? Some guff about a few presents for you ? I don't believe him and you haven't pushed hard enough on that point

4. have you been abundantly clear this is his very final chance ? I didn't see that anywhere in your text above. If you are not clear on this, he will continue slipping back even though his intentions are apparently good

5. what is your time scale, and what sanctions are in place if he doesn't win back your trust ?

erm, that turned into 5 points

Pralines - absolutely no offence or hurt taken, I'm sorry if it came across as if there was. I have honestly found your thread very useful and eye opening. Thank you.

Incidentally, it has just occurred to me that money is an emotive thing. Not having any can make a person feel dirty. Having loads can make a person feel top dog. Would you consider that the issue you have and I have is an emotional reaction to how you feel about yourself?

I think perhaps money represents something for you both (not having money can make a person feel dirty is a strong statement) and you have opposing views on finances. His spending is likely to be an emotional issue but I also think your need to stockpile is also an emotional issue.

I understand that lying (or not being open) is the issue here and counselling would certainly help with that.

Agree with AFs points, especially no. 2. That struck me as well as soon as I read what he'd said about 'needing you to help him'. Nonono. Thats not how it works.

'help me please' is what exH said to me too. I did help him. I allowed him onto my wonderful and precious current account which i had had since I was 18. We were married...i thought 'look, what is mine is his, I can help him. i can be his queen warrior and show him how to manage money sensibly. I can give him his manliness back by allowing him to pay for things on a joint debit card from our account.'

He swiped the lot. He ruined me.

And pralines, you are very wrong when you say this: Married couples are not responsible for each others debt any more They most certainly are. I think you need to do some serious checking out on that one and stop believing his bullshit.

Sorry, just to qualify that a bit - you *do8 sound as though you are not accepting his bullshit anymore. Doesn't sound like he would write a post like nameuschangeus. no no no. You have done tears shouting wailing and tearing your hair out.

Yet still he merrily spends the lolly on presents for you I Doubt that very much. Chuck any presents in the bin in front of him [diddums that he is] and start checking where he is still spending the money.

[hard reality check stare]

If you want children too, you had better start trying. But not with this loser.

Many thanks you again. I apologise for the level of detail I have never been precise.

re point 2. He actually said he needs to help me to help him. I think I explained it badly previously or maybe this is an issue. He is not relying on me to sort his issues. He is saying that he needs to be more open when things are going wrong. The me helping him bit is in relation to discussing issues, talking them through - he cannot ask me to sort his issues - this is not my problem. But I see no reason why if he is feeling down (for example) that he shouldn't just talk to me and about it rather than suffer in silence.

Ummm - where the money went. In the past 6 months since we last had this problem he spent £700 on his credit card. This is the amount that I am pissed about. I have access to all of his accounts, all of his cards and how I found the balance yesterday was simply by logging on. I played forensic detective 6 months ago and spent a weekend going through 2 years of bank statements with him to show where the bulk of the previous money went. The amounts are largely shop transactions. Last year I also traced a pattern of financial behaviour - am I being naive?

Time scale - is there is not time scale on this. HE needs to sort his issues out and it needs not to happen again. I don't care if it is in two years time or in 6 months. I'm not doing this any more. Even if we get through this we will still need to sort and get through the damage that has been done to our relationship.

I have one life and no major responsibility - I refuse to carry anyone else. Not under these circumstances.

Smum - good point. I have a bad relationship with money. I have pockets of cash all over the place. Even my car has its very own bank account with funds in it. Just in case.

Maybe saying lack of funds made people feel dirty was a bit strong I meant that feeling when you are struggling and absolutely nothing is there. We are not wealthy. We live a kind of typical lower professional London lifestyle. I do not think I would cope with wealth either to be honest as I would always feel guilty. As I sometimes do now. I purposely didn't mention how much money this thread is about because I didn't want anyone telling me I was over reacting.

I didn't write a lot regarding the position I have taken which we also discussed during the 6 hour marathon last night. I'm not doing this again. I also made it abundantly clear that this isn't my problem but I'll bloody well terminate this marriage as his problem affects me and as much as I love him I love myself foremost. I have to put myself first.

I hope I have explained that all well, and I am testing myself for evidence of back-tracking. I do not think I am.

@ UA - Shit I just researched it. If we ended up in a divorce we would have to bat out the debt. I am about to point that one out to him - it was my belief he has never told me that.

Gosh - it sounds like you went through an awful lot. He doesn't have access to my bank accounts. No joint cards, loans etc. Both of our credit reports are 999. Neither of us have missed a bill payment in years. In fact I don't think I have missed a bill payment (or paid late) in my 30 years. (thinks back to sums point re attitude to money). And I have worked three jobs at a time to support myself. He has maybe had 3 or so bank charges in the last 12 months.

Why do you think he wouldn't write a post like namechangeus? Do you think he is just fleecing me? To date he never has. I'm trying to think of the last time he asked me for money or I gave it. I do ask if he is a bit short towards the end of the month as I have a end of month slush fund in case we run a bit short.

He rarely needs it. Even when he has had periods of not using cards he normally takes lunch to work etc if he is short. doesn't make him amazing or anything. I just mean I am not his cash cow.

Re children - I am really not even considering that at the moment. I am not desperately broody although I would like one. Even if we do sort things out we wouldn't start trying again until we have paid all of the debt off - by my budget (and assuming he doesn't get any bonuses which are expected and neither of us lose our jobs) it will all be paid off by about Sept/Oct leaving just the car loan which is mine.

As I have said - this isn't about the money, it is the underlying issues.

Well I will take issue with one thing at least in your last post:

This: I see no reason why if he is feeling down (for example) that he shouldn't just talk to me and about it rather than suffer in silence

He is not suffering in silence. I repeat, not. He is spending with no regard for your feelings. I fail to see how he is suffering at all

Also, I for one did quite clearly understand what he said about 'help me to help you'

WTAF? This is not your problem in the first place. You don't need his help to help him...he needs to grow the fuck up and cut up any debit or credit cards he has and stop pissing away your trust.

The above bullshit about 'helping you to help him' is him using befuddling words to make you think somehow that he can offer you some way of finding a solution to his stupid senseless destructive habit. He is gas-lighting you a little there.

You shouldn't apologise for being scrupulous about money. You are obviously fair and not tight - otherwise you wouldn't have put up with him for this long.

If you don't sort this out now your marriage will not last. And worse than that he might take severe umbrage and clear you out.

When my ex husband took all our money and left the country, I was most definitely the one they came after for the joint debt. It cost me a lot emotionally and financially to get myself back on track.

I know I sound a bit harsh, but honestly, I bet he won't change. And you will end up having a minor breakdown because it's so bloody dispiriting.

And you want a baby most of all I expect.

Well I bet you a million quid that he does not want a baby with you. He may be going through the motions, but so long as he has his 'silly little habit' he knows you won't want to conceive with him. ergo he can keep spending.

Give him a proper kick up the gonads. Tell him to leave and prove himself capable of paying for at least a flippin sherbert dib dab, by spend a year standing on his own two diminutive feet. Without accumulating massive debts or suggesting that you need his help to help him

In that year, have a nice holiday, enjoy budgeting for yourself instead of gnawing your fingers to stumps with this twit, and at the end of the year you'll have a few quid left in the bank to pay for the divorce.

When and if you really put your foot down over this money issue and stop listening to his bleatings, he will either come up trumps or throw a toddler tantrum. The latter I suspect. I really really feel for you.

He's not necessarily fleecing you, no. But he is fleecing your family monies by being irresponsible and untrustworthy with his spending. At the moment it's only you two.

But imagine if you had a baby and went on maternity leave/your personal earnings went down etc and you were now reliant on this man to be 100 per cent financially trustworthy and a good solid rock for your new little family ...well, you wouldn't be able to in present circumstances would you.

It doesn't sound to me like he wants children at all.

He is saying that he needs to be more open when things are going wrong.

That's hilarious!

The bottom line is that he broke your trust once before, promised not to do it again, and now has.

With £600pm spending money he should not have too resort to credit cards. I think you have your head well and truly buried in the sand.

I wouldn't want a longterm relationship which included making myself financially dependant during maternity leave etc, on someone who has proved they cannot be trusted.

I know everyone on here will disagree, but the way I see it, most people have an Achilles heel, some flaw or problem. My husband is a spender and has caused me lots of heartache over it over the years, but I still like being married to him and don't wish I'd ditched him at the first sign of his financial ineptitude.

I would not be happy about this, and you need to give him a bottom-line waring, this cannot go on. But to err is human, and he's human. I would give him another chance. It's £700, which he actually had, and you can afford. Indeed, I wonder if he did it as it's a bit 'naughty'.

Mumsy, the poor OP has written this:

I feel like he is a great big fucking albatross around my neck

this:
I am so fucked off. I have had a bad day at work, I'm unfertilised after 18 months of trying (not a problem for me as such at present) and I have told him not to bother coming home as this isn't the first time he has run up a balance and I am just sick of it

this:
this all came out in November huge meltdown tears the lot and I sorted it by balance transferring and sorting a budget

this:
I shouldn't have to bloody parent him

this:
I haven't even told you half of it (and I won't - same bloody issue over past few years he is just shit with money. If he has access to it just has to go). I'm not living with it. I don't bust my balls (well ovaries) to keep the likes of amazon in business

this:
Shit I just researched it. If we ended up in a divorce we would have to bat out the debt. I am about to point that one out to him - it was my belief he has never told me that

This is not about a 700 quid blip. This is about a systematic piss-take.