What to do - Sexless, but loving marriage

[spottycup]

My wife and I have been married for 3 years and we have a young son.

My wife just doesn't want sex with me, and this didn't start as a result of childbirth. I've tried tackling it head on by talking to her about on a number of occasions and there are always hollow promises about changing things, but after a couple of weeks things are back to normal. I'm alwayts trying to show my wife how much I fancy her and want a great sex life with her, but she's just not interested and I don't know what to do.

I don't want to even think about leaving, but this is eating me up inside and I can't think of anything else to try. This is not something has has happened over night and its ruining my every waking minute. I've gone as far as thinking about killing myself, because that almost feels better than ending our relationship, but its only my mind racing with ideas about having no more options.

She just doesn't want me anymore and I don't think i can bear it.

"DH is well aware that he's far more likely to get some action on a Sunday night than any other"

Not aimed at you in particular, but I think as soon as a couple are thinking in terms of one partner 'getting' it and another giving it, there is already a pretty serious imbalance on the cards.

It's a fairly painful and unfulfilling experience to be in a relationship where someone doesn't want you in the same way that you want them, and that is true of sex as much as it's true of love and affection.

I didn't mean that there was imbalance rolo, just that DH knows (I hope) that my libido has as much to do with my tiredness levels as my attraction to him.

I can see what you mean ROlo, but at the same time, when there is a mismatch in libidos but the couple are happy together it may well be that both are aware of certain times/circumstances being more likely to activate the lower-libido partner's interest (eg a relaxing day, a break from DC or whatever).

ElusiveCamel - "I feel very strongly that a huge component of marriage is the contract to be the other's sexual partner for life and if you are not doing that OR taking steps to address it then you've broken your vows."

Absolutely.

Spottycup, I know pretty much how you feel, been there, done that, still in fact doing it (or rather not doing it!)
Have been grappliing with this issue for about eight years now, even before DC came along. Over the years has led to many rows, lots of tears, accussations that OH doesn't love me, lots of destructive emotions and obviously thinking about breaking up (got pretty close). Very occassionally have done it where OH was trying to appease / avoid breakup but got to say that is deeply unfulfilling and doing it with a reluctant partner feels a lot like abuse, couldn't face doing that again.

It sounds like you're in a similar situation and from my experience, I wouldn't expect it is ever going to change.

The question is, does it really matter? You say you have love but not sex. I can live with a sexless marriage, but not a loveless one.

Although we don't do sex anymore (actually this year we have agreed to ban sex, sexual touching and kissing altogether to avoid confused messages) we do have hugs. We have a nice life, nice house, wonderful DC that have two parents, all of which would be lost if we threw it all away over "just" sex.

I'm not the type to have an affair and you don't sound like you are either.

My advice is to enjoy the lovely things you do have and take care of your "needs" discreetly by yourself.

We have a nice life, nice house, wonderful DC that have two parents, all of which would be lost if we threw it all away over "just" sex.

Exactly what I meant when I urged OP to look at the alternative.

I just can't imagine considering the inability to have sex equating to a broken marriage vow like adultery, abandonment or some other betrayal of trust.

You see, this is why I fucking despise the cult of monogamy. When people insist on monogamy for relationships where there is a major libido mismatch then either one partner is going to spend years gritting his/her teeth and enduring sex that s/he really would prefer to do without, or one partner is going to feel a great deal of wistfulness, at the very least, at missing out on something which is for a lot of people a very important part of life.

When the kindest and best solution all round is for the high libido partner to have a night out from time to time and a bit of NSA fun elsewhere. I just don't get this idea that a low-libido individual has any kind of moral right to enforce sexlessness on his/her partner indefinitely. If you don't like or want sex then what's it to you if your partner is doing it with other people?

I just can't imagine considering the inability to have sex equating to a broken marriage vow like adultery
Why not? Promising to be faithful is the flipside of the same promise to be a sexual partner to your spouse. Of course, that's a very extreme statement and in reality life is a lot more complicated and nuanced etc, but that is the bargain: The promise to 'forsake all others' is hinged upon the fact that you don't forsake your spouse. The CoE wedding service specifically states that marriage 'brings husband and wife together in the delight and tenderness of sexual union' before faithfulness is mentioned and you promise, in the actual vows, to honour your spouse with your body.

I agree that accepting the situation is one option for the OP, but do not agree with the view that dismisses sex as unimportant and 'just' sex. Sex is a strong biological urge and, for many people, living without is massively detrimental to their mental health and wellbeing. It's fine if some people don't feel it's important to them, but there is nothing wrong with people for whom it's just too much to live without. Of course people can survive without sex, but if you're talking about survival we can all survive without friends, without human touch, without the love of our children, without intimacy, without care from other human beings, without good family relationships etc. Many people do survive like that, but we wouldn't be surprised if those people felt deeply unhappy without those things and we would never think it was OK to unilaterally remove those things from a partner's life and tell them to just deal with it.

ElusiveCamel, you are right to a point and although I'm accepting of things, there's a part of me (no, not THAT part !) that is desperately longing for cuddles and intimacy and all those intangible things that come along with sex. And yes, I am deeply unhappy. Obviously. Rejection and feeling unloved is properly awful and it has taken a long time to come to terms with that.
But still not willing to miss out on seeing DS grow up for it though. It's a question of priorities.

I'm not sure I can entirely buy in to the idea that spouses contract to be each other's sexual partner forever though. Yes, we promised that to eachother, and DW has breached that, but to hold her to it would be pretty awful don't you think? Where do you draw the line between reluctant / coerced / marital rape? Violence I suppose, but are threats of breaking up the family unless you submit acceptable either?

I can see solidgoldbrass' point that one partner doesn't have the right to impose sexlessness on the other. And for some NSAfun could be the solution.

Everyone is different and has different priorities and feelings about things. I was trying to show OP that it doesn't have to be all or nothing, a pragmatic solution is sometimes possible.

As it goes, all my friends think I'm an idiot and shouldn't put up with it.

This whole thread has been very helpful actually, as it is easy to feel very alone in these things and it is comforting to see that others have similar issues.

I'm not sure I can entirely buy in to the idea that spouses contract to be each other's sexual partner forever though. Yes, we promised that to eachother, and DW has breached that, but to hold her to it would be pretty awful don't you think? Where do you draw the line between reluctant / coerced / marital rape?
TheMareofCasterbridge If you read everything I've said on this thread carefully, you'll see that I've said that 'sexual partner' I mean that the spouse EITHER has to be having sex OR they need to be working with their spouse to a mutually agreeable resolution. If they are not doing EITHER one of those things, then I think they have broken the vow.

I don't believe, and have never said anywhere, that you are promising to always be having sex with your partner, but I do believe that you promise to be in a sexual partnership with them and that means that when sex isn't happening that you fully participate in dealing and resolving with any problems that arise from that. Coerced sex is absolutely not an acceptable resolution and I would never suggest that anyone have sex they don't want to or that it's OK for anyone else to expect/demand sex the other person doesn't want.

Aside from the cult of monogamy statement, I agree with SGB.

OP's wife cannot carry on as if this is not a problem for the relationship, and furthermore refuse to talk about it. It's just not a caring way to behave towards your partner. Sex therapy/counselling needed if this conversation can't be achieved without outside help

(I speak as the one with lower libido)

It's all very well to say OP shouldn't have to put up with this but the end result of all that discussion with a view to resolution (ie going on about it) or counselling (much more formal and obviously serious) is that it's DW who will end up with a clear choice. Have sex whether she wants to or not or else! So OP has to understand that the upshot may be that he won't have to go on like this at all, as DW may well decide that ending the marriage is her only choice.

I wonder if the OP is prepared for an otherwise loving, appreciative and happy life with his wife and son to end like that?

But never mind OP, you've had plenty of advice here to reassure you that there's nothing really more important than regular sex, indeed it's part of the contract never mind all that good times and bad, sickness and health rubbish. If sex is something you just cannot live without, then I'm sure it'll more than make up for the emotional and financial fallout of a divorce.

By the sound of it there's absolutely loads of lovely partners and endless sex to be had. You just need to get a grip and accept that you deserve far more attention and appreciation than you currently enjoy - no matter what the cost.

Olgaga, from the sound of how desperate he is, he probably is prepared for his marriage to end. Some things are dealbreakers , this is one of them.

Ok I know this is a bit "out there" but I know someone who is asexual. This person doesn't feel sex is necessary nor likes the idea. They tried counselling to reignite a libido but that's what it boils down to. I've just googled it and it's actually quite common and a category in itself after heterosexual, homosexual etc

My thoughts too, that she may be asexual.

I remember when I first heard of it years ago on a radio programme and a woman was talking about it, she was asexual but wanted children and therefore got married. She´d had 3 children.

I also think if one partner is not willing to have sex then the other one should be free to find it somewhere else.

Hope you can find a solution OP that works for you both.

for an otherwise loving, appreciative and happy life with his wife
That implies that it's a trivial matter and it's really not. What women here would be told 'Well if your husband makes you feel rejected and like shit, doesn't care that you feel awful and won't talk to you about it or do anything about it, then you should just accept it if it's otherwise loving, appreciative and happy life'? A life is not loving and happy when the person you're with demonstrates again and again for years, through their inaction, that they don't really care about you and aren't willing to put any effort in to save your marriage.

And no, it's not 'never mind all that good times and bad, sickness and health rubbish' in the slightest! It's all part of the same thing. Someone who doesn't care about what this is doing to their partner and doesn't care enough to do anything about it or to at least communicate about it properly is not a loving wife/husband.

By the way, there have been many threads on here about ED and men who won't see a doctor or really discuss it with their partners. The advice there is always unanimous.

Olgaga The reason my husband and I didn't have sex more than a handful of times in 3 years, why he wouldn't do it, was basically that the romantic relationship was more or less over for him. We got on very well most of the time, were kind to each other, had good times and all of that stuff. You don't seem to appreciate how utterly and completely soul-destroying it is to be told for years "I do still love and fancy you, I'm just tired. I just don't really feel like it. I'm sorry, I will make an effort" when you can see that the actions don't match up. Doing that to someone is not love. Lack of sex is very often a sign of a relationship in deep trouble and when you have a partner who won't admit it, keeps claiming over and over again that it's all fine 'that they're just tired' then how you can have an 'otherwise loving' relationship with them?

I agree with ElusiveCamel and SGB. I'm a woman but I lived in a sexless marriage for 7 years. When we did do it, it was deeply unsatisfying and fraught with ED issues. It was soul destroying. Sex is important to me. I tried to talk about it with him regularly, wanted to seek help etc. But his actions never matched up with what he'd say. So I really feel for the OP.

Ironically in my situation he then had an affair! I was gobsmacked and that crushed my self esteem even more.

I can see that some people do see the absence of sex as an indication that they are unloved or unwanted, and if you see sex as being a crucial measure of your partner's feelings for you then obviously it would be a dealbreaker. By the sound of it OP is coming to that conclusion.

But I don't agree that everyone sees it that way. For some people it really is enough to be with someone you love, who loves you and the child/children you have had together, who respects you, cares for you and supports you, enjoys your company and wants to be with you always.

Obviously there's a difference between that and the situation Teaandcake describes, but lack of sexual desire isn't always manipulative or abusive. If OP's wife is simply unable to do anything about her lack of desire, but still loves him and wants the marriage to continue, then he has two choices really - either adjust his expectations, or if that's not possible, end the marriage.

Mare you say about not breaking up with a family but what about when your DCs grow up and leave?

I agree with what others have said about this being a break of vows.

These situations are never just about the lack of sex. They are about the lack of desire, admiration, validation as a sexual being and concern for a partner's happiness.

This is why any posts that suggest the OP would be within his rights to seek sex elsewhere are missing the point and the subtlety of the dilemma. The OP hasn't once expressed a desire to seek sex outside his marriage. It's patently obvious he loves his wife and wants sex with her. Sex for him (like a lot of people) is probably not a discrete activity where it is possible to keep his emotions separate. If he were to have sex outside of his marriage, even if that was an openly conducted activity with the full knowledge of his wife, he might still run the risk of losing his marriage if he developed feelings for the other woman and experienced a pull away from his wife. Not everyone is able to divorce feelings from sex and cannot view it as merely a means to sate a biological urge. A secret affair might be equally unappealing, because the OP might again be like many people who don't want to become deceivers and liars in their quest for sexual satisfaction. His personal integrity might be more important to him than sex.

If any of that is the case for the OP, then the best option is to change the conversation. He says that talking produces temporary change and never seems to deal with the root-cause of his wife's lower libido. When there is a script like that running on repeat in a relationship, it makes no sense to re-enact it because it will never achieve a different result.

Better to get a third party like a psycho-sexual counsellor to supervise the conversation and make appropriate interventions. What often emerges in those sessions are unhelpful 'sex associations' that were created in childhood or after early sexual experiences. These too run like a silent but deadly script during later sexual relationships.

It's true that some people are asexual and it can't be ruled out, but a longstanding aversion to sex usually has its roots in past or present relationships. This can include the way adults were socialised as children about sex by parents and care-givers, damaging early sexual experiences (not just abuse), unhelpful beliefs about differences between men and women's sexual appetites and sometimes just sexual incompatibility with a current partner.

So I'd change tack OP and be as honest as you can about your unhappiness. You are not wrong to feel this unhappiness and dissatisfaction and you should feel no sense of shame for wanting to have more sex with your wife. I would frame this in terms of your unhappiness and the other negative effects this is having on your wellbeing, so that there can be no misunderstanding that this is 'just' about sex. But make this a prelude to a request to go for some therapy as a couple.

If your wife refuses to go, isn't honest with you about the real problem or makes empty promises in order to stop the discussion, you've got some tough decisions to make. I think you'll feel better about yourself if those decisions are ethical and won't compromise your personal integrity. Good luck.

That was a good post Hattytown

Olgaga
But I don't agree that everyone sees it that way. For some people it really is enough to be with someone you love, who loves you

Nobody said that everyone sees it that way, but plenty are saying that the op is not wrong to see it as a marriage breaker. You are is fixed in your view that it is wrong to consider ending a marriage over this issue that you come across as quite narrow and guilt inducing for the op. I don't think that's a fair or helpful viewpoint.

Better to get a third party like a psycho-sexual counsellor to supervise the conversation and make appropriate interventions. What often emerges in those sessions are unhelpful 'sex associations' that were created in childhood or after early sexual experiences. These too run like a silent but deadly script during later sexual relationships.

A very good point, Hattytown.

Obsidian I have acknowledged that for some people it is a dealbreaker. There is nothing "guilt inducing" about pointing out that sexual fulfilment doesn't have to be the be-all and end-all in a relationship. Obviously it is if that's your position - but it isn't obligatory!

I am simply pointing out that this is a human relationship - it's not a simple breach of contract!

There is nothing "narrow" about suggesting it might be helpful to try to stop thinking about sex as the only or most important measure of your partner's feelings for you, to the point of feeling that suicide is an option, as the OP stated. Indeed I am urging him to consider a wider, less narrow view of their relationship.

If there is any aspect of a couple-relationship with which one partner is unhappy, it's unfair for the other partner to keep making empty promises to change but no effort to do so, and simply expect the other partner to put up with the status quo.