The Lundy Book. So sad

[Abitwobblynow]

This book 'should I stay or should I go?' is just one of the saddest books I have read. Especially for a co dependent, whose life has depended on 'solving the problem'.

What I have discovered, is that after our lives have been rocked by infidelity, nothing has changed, and what is it that I am supposed to be working with?

If he had been shocked by himself (he was) to really face things, really work at looking at himself and make sure he never reverted to those strategies again (naaah, not worth it), then all of this would have been worth it.

But nothing has changed. I am sure I am batshitcrazy to want to talk about the affair, but he says that the few sparse sentences he gave me is enough, and I shouldn't be going on about it. So, for me, it is not going away.

Then, the Lundy book has opened my eyes to the complete futility of our non-transactions. Why is protecting and defending himself/his ego more important than anything else? It has always been this way!

What would happen if he acknowledged that I had a point? Would he blow up and die?

'(Meal) Take any plate you want. Oh no, not that one, I wanted it. [pointing out this is a double message requiring mind reading, rage, retreat. The new me insists on the point being made, conflict]

'You make it very hard for me to talk to you' [after I have erupted in hurt and frustration because he hasn't talked to me about something really important]

'No, it isn't' - instant flat response to everything.

[This one hurts] never touching me affectionately unless he wants sex. After sex the touching stops. I have raised this point several times over a 10 year period.

If I persist, turning the issue back onto me and my faults, issues he never brings up in his own time.

Has anyone read this book? What are your thoughts? Does anything I say echo in anyone's life, or am I batshitcrazy after all?

Hatty, thank you for your input but I am in quite a bad space at the moment, so could we just stick to the matter in hand which is what do I do and how do I feel. At the moment I feel fairly overwhelmed fighting callous behaviour towards one woman, and don't feel up to taking up cudgels for everyone else.

I wonder if you have experienced profound personal betrayal, it is quite hard to understand how traumatising it is - I never did, and even told H that I would rather he had an affair than used a prostitute (accompanying lecture as outlined above) - well reality doesn't bear that out. The damage is so huge, so intimate and it spreads outwards in ripples.

So I am asking you to respond to me with kindness and empathy. If you don't and persist in pushing your theories, I will ask to have your posts removed.

Abitwobbly - I appreciate you are in a bad space, but I think you are being unfair when you ask Hattytown to stop pushing her theories when in fact you are asking for these - it was your question which was directly aimed to her that prompted her latest posts. I have to said that Hatty makes a lot of sense. I think it must be really hard to remove one's personal values and beliefs when dealing with emotions and thoughts.

Wishing you much strength.

The reality for you doesn't bear that out, but don't assume that is everyone else's reality wobbly, or that your respondents are posting from an exclusively theoretical perspective. Many posters would prefer to keep what has informed their views private and I'd like you to respect that.

I don't accept that I have been unkind or unempathetic to you but I think you interpret honesty and challenge in this way. It wouldn't trouble me at all if you asked MNHQ to remove my posts but since I haven't breached Talk Guidelines then I think you'd have difficulty with that request.

If you're asking me to stop posting on your thread I will however do so. If you post an open thread you are asking for different people's opinions and advice and it is your right to reject or accept what comes back. My latter posts have also been responses to direct questions you have posed of me. As long as respondents are polite to you in their responses, it is somewhat fruitless to try and silence them because you disagree. But it is a fairly pointless activity for a poster to stay on a thread when her presence is not wanted by the OP and so I will withdraw and wish you strength.

Abitwobbly

Poor you, I really sympathise with your struggle at the moment. I have been there, and for years, that constant hoping for change, imploring, appealing, begging and finally threatening your h with divorce, if only he would see your point of view when you are miserable and he could do alot about it. And help his children and himself in the process.

So I am not criticising you for the time you need to make your decision.

Also, I dont really wish to engage in the key debate, I think enough people have.

I would say, however, that I do think that much of what Hatty has offered about your situation is reasonable. In particular, her comments in the last two paragraphs of her post at 11.11, in which she talks directly about your situation.

I think last week that you had reached a point of no return, and then returned again. I have done this too.

Nobody moves forward unless they are ready. I wasnt ready even to disbelieve my denying h when I first posted my suspicions in September, although in hindsight every one was right, if forthright!

Do you think that it may help you to get a little more counselling at this point?

Actually, I believe that although my own h did not use prostitutes, he did certainly not give a shit about the women he conversed with. It was coercive in my view, even though he did not see this.

But the deal breaker for me would be his approach to me now. I simply cannot imagine, now I look back on the years of crap I put up with, being treated in the same way now. I simply would not. I lived that life of withdrawal and blaming of me for his failings, and I wont ever slip back to it. I am astounded that I ever did.

It would so empower you to reach a position where you stopped hoping, or, as in my case in October, simply didnt care.

Take care.

Reading your post of 6:47:24 was like reading passages from my own life there Wobbly. The feeling that you do not know the person with whom you have shared your life is like the experience of being utterly lost in a strange place where nobody speaks your language. You look for some recognisable detail, you grasp at the maps and the phrasebooks that you have. The more you try, the more lost you feel. You know that the lifeline he dangles you will be a bargain you cannot accept, that he will not use it to pull you in but just to leave you dangling there.

Thank you for the empathy everyone, it means a hell of a lot.

This is a really lonely place. To know others have come through means a lot. And that you have 'read' it so well.

Wobbly/fingers the Other Lundy Bancroft book is available on itunes here if that is of any use

Thanks Fool It was the first book I read - like water to a woman dying of thirst.
I thought that FWH would take a look at himself as his behaviour had deteriorated to such an extent that divorce was the only option.
Of course he didn't :(
Threw the lot away. Saw the lawyer on Monday. Separation will become legal before Easter :(
I never even got an apology :( even a half-hearted one.
FWH (how I love that acronym :)) said today how devastated he was that he had thrown HIS life away.

Forgot my manners:
Abit how are things with dickhead DH back. More to the point, how are you?
Fool hope you saw my admiration for your being 'mad, bad and dangerous to know'. How are things with you? Have you got finances sorted.
Math just realized that I had read all your posts except the important one. F what a story :( You are younger than me (I am in my 50s) but how long will any of us have left after the time it takes to get over this? I am beginning to begrudge every fing second.

sorry...someone somewhere wanted it in a e-format.....brain a bit muddly........

I am all sorted with finances...he is doing NOTHING...nothing new there then!

Am enjoying the thought of being Mad, bad and dangerous to know!!

I suppose that this is what this thread is about, really. The fact that FWHs do F* all

I tell you what...better have the versions that are so up their own a**es that they can't be bothered than the stalkers/scary monsters that some people on these boards have to put up with....my NSDH can be scary when he is around but fortunately he's so lazy that if I can keep him away, he stays where he is....he can't be bothered to make a special effort to put us in harm's way!!!!

I think the thing to clarify in your head, wobbly, is the power dynamic here.

You want something. He doesnt, he has made that clear.

Some men offer it because they see the need to, some because they are forced, and some never do.

My h was forced, in reality, by my unusual withdrawal. But then because of the Relate context he more saw the need. If it hadn?t been for that, it would have been too late, as I?m not stupid, and I did see that he hadn?t really 'chosen' to tell, as such.

In your case, the relationship dynamics are worse than before.

Why would more asking him get a different result? I think that when things get this bad with a couple, that there will be any change without action first. They sense from experience and from what you are saying that the split is not really what you want.

It was very odd for me, that weekend we sort of split, when I moved out of the bedroom late one night. We had been arguing and debating for two weeks in a row, as I would finally not be convinced that the evidence of OW I had found yet again was innocent.

But, silly thing, what made me get dressed again and walk out was something totally different. A stroppy 15 year old had left me an vile 'you are a horrible mum' type note after a dispute about her failing yet again to do her few chores, when younger siblings had.

I read the note and was upset. He asked what the matter was, and I showed him the note. And he laughed! I waited for him to say something and watched the clock whilst 12 minutes passed. I knew that he identified with her, despite the hassle she had been giving us recently. He was thinking of himself as a hard done by teenager too.He didnt give a shit that he had as usual kept out of the issue, reserving his time with them to play the bountiful dad, and he didn?t care at all about my upset, in fact it amused him.

I truly saw him then for what he was, and the relationship for what it was, which was nothing. Even though in some ways this was not news, there had been other examples. At that moment I truly changed. If he had not been willing to address those attitudes, as well as confess the infidelity I knew to be happening, we couldn?t have got anywhere, could we? It would have been time to call it a day, whether he confessed or not.

(Interestingly, it was this kind of abuse that he was quickest at Relate to accept and deal with; he found the infidelity harder to admit.)

Do you see my point? I don?t want to bore you with more of my story, but I think it may be relevant to your context.

Amen to that Fool. Although the abuse has been physical and FWH's attitude is violent and aggressive, I have never been afraid of him, and the ONE trait in Lundy's book that he has not shown is jealousy, stalking etc. It is soul destroying that he neither know, or cares, where I am, what I do, what I want ...,but I feel that you are right - it is probably safer.

Thank God for you lot. You really do stop me thinking I am insane. I have diagnosed myself with: borderline personality disorder, emotional abuse, control issues, and ... what else? (: I just want to be normal! Have a bit of happiness! Live! Is it too much to ask? I WOULD get over the affair, if he showed enough horror at the person he was, and set about being determined to not be that person any more....

It IS about the power dynamics.

His abuse is not about being threatening. It is about control through silence, refusing to share himself, self pity, withdrawal and quiet hostility. I do not get hit or slammed, I am not physically afraid of him. Does the Lundy book deal with this at all?

I am sure his IC is dealing with trying to make him safe so he can peek out etc., but I really don't think she has helped:
she told him that telling me details of the affair would traumatise me further
she told ME I need to make him feel safe. Feel safe? He made ME unsafe, so who owes who!

I must be mad. Life really should not be this complicated. Why is it so complicated!

But wobbly, hasnt he stopped going to his counsellor?

Also, read my thread on 23 rd January.

As someone said to me, 'you are trying so hard to make him comfortable to talk to you, but you are not comfortable.'

Where are you in all this?

Ask yourself what you are going to do about it?

5...absolutely..looking after others is great, but we have to look after ourselves first

Abuse like this is just as abusive as a fist in your face wobbly.
Individual ego-centric counselling always makes abusers worse...they get great affirmation from a professional going along with their take on the world. And it does no good at all..no challenge, no healing and NO SPACE FOR YOU!!!!

OMG, have just ordered this book but I have a feeling I know it will confirm my worst fears.

H always blames me for everything that goes wrong in our marriage; if I get upset, he goes cold and silent with rage and I am left pleading like a bloody jellyfish.

Can't go on like this for too much longer. He can be lovely for a few weeks and then he turns, as though when the moon is full, he changes like a damn werewolf.

Just need peace and quiet now, getting too old for all this crap.

Lucy tell us more. These girls just help so much, they cut through the confusion that keeps you stuck.

No, 5 he hasn't stopped going, but I seriously don't think she helps. I think her 'take' that it is both of us, instead of calling him to account, has been deeply unhelpful.
As for me keeping him 'safe', WTF does she think I tried to do for 15 years, loving and 'understanding' him to a better place? Well, exactly where did that get me! (:

Abitw, I have been in this place.

The thing is, there are no doubt behaviours on your style which have contributed to the breakdown of the marriage.

But you are not responsible for his affair.

And you are not responsible for the simple fact that he refuses to discuss it with you.

And you are not unreasonable to say that you cant get past it until he does. It is simple respect.

meant to say, on your side

One thing I wanted to put about the Lundy Bancroft books:

is how they open your eyes/stop the confusion. The point he makes, that these men KNOW. They KNOW what they are doing, and scatter diversions/confusions in their wake to divert YOU, to keep THEIR benefit.

The clarity of that, I am hugely grateful for, even though it is ): to discover.

I was reading poor Panda's thread, in which she made the following statements:

H has sex with her when she is asleep
H avoids her awake, actively avoids
H uses porn
She has told H 3 TIMES she does not like it, not to do it
H says sorry then does it again

When she confronted H this time, HE LOOKED BEWILDERED. (sorry, no italics).

Before, I would have been sidetracked by this. Thanks to Lundy Bancroft, I immediately thought, no he isn't. He knows EXACTLY what she is talking about. Here comes the undermining (which P outlined later).

Sorry to talk about you, Panda, but I was struck by this.

Oh yes, my h used to do it.

eg

innocent face, raising eyebrows slightly, 'er .. what?'

Or using humour to deflect.

Or that old chestnut 'I cant remember' (later transmuted to "i don't recall', as business language and tactics crept in to the relationship (by which I mean his business tactics, not mine)

Or 'forgetting'

Or not having time/being stressed, meaning I am unsympathetic (to stress which he often caused himself, with workaholic approach).

Or the most common of all, a two or three hour discussion, getting nowhere, him deliberately going down side avenues in the argument whenever he sensed I was getting anywhere at all on the subject, until I didnt know which way is up. So, he might have rephrased the question to enable him to have a different point and not answer mine, or say 'is it or is it not the case that....', or force an angle or question which required a 'yes' answer, whilst deflecting from the point I had raised in the first place.

The thing is, at Relate and since, he has admitted that he used to use manipulation as a tactic even more often than I noticed it.

And I noticed it alot.

I will never live like that again.

The key thing is, Wobbly, I didnt need Relate to know that he did that. I already knew, and why, although it wasnt as clear to me as it is now.

And the self doubt I had used to make me stop taking the next step in case I was wrong or unreasonable, even when I wasnt. Because I kept taking him into account, whilst allowing myself to ignore the fact that he would take ME into account.

Personally, I now think that unless one has a big crisis, really big, like me filing for divorce or going to Relate and standing my ground, then one does not get any change in a relationship like this.

Why would they? Personal change is really hard for anyone after years of the same personality and tactics. It takes a personal need in the individual, or a crisis where they stand to lose, and right now, to precipitate it.