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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

The Lundy Book. So sad

142 replies

Abitwobblynow · 05/03/2012 04:36

This book 'should I stay or should I go?' is just one of the saddest books I have read. Especially for a co dependent, whose life has depended on 'solving the problem'.

What I have discovered, is that after our lives have been rocked by infidelity, nothing has changed, and what is it that I am supposed to be working with?

If he had been shocked by himself (he was) to really face things, really work at looking at himself and make sure he never reverted to those strategies again (naaah, not worth it), then all of this would have been worth it.

But nothing has changed. I am sure I am batshitcrazy to want to talk about the affair, but he says that the few sparse sentences he gave me is enough, and I shouldn't be going on about it. So, for me, it is not going away.

Then, the Lundy book has opened my eyes to the complete futility of our non-transactions. Why is protecting and defending himself/his ego more important than anything else? It has always been this way!

What would happen if he acknowledged that I had a point? Would he blow up and die?

'(Meal) Take any plate you want. Oh no, not that one, I wanted it. [pointing out this is a double message requiring mind reading, rage, retreat. The new me insists on the point being made, conflict]

'You make it very hard for me to talk to you' [after I have erupted in hurt and frustration because he hasn't talked to me about something really important]

'No, it isn't' - instant flat response to everything.

[This one hurts] never touching me affectionately unless he wants sex. After sex the touching stops. I have raised this point several times over a 10 year period.

If I persist, turning the issue back onto me and my faults, issues he never brings up in his own time.

Has anyone read this book? What are your thoughts? Does anything I say echo in anyone's life, or am I batshitcrazy after all?

OP posts:
Abitwobblynow · 06/03/2012 05:00

Regarding the children, it's a triple whammy. CE GCSE A levels.

And that is fine. He is not a violent or 'horrible' person.

I just wish he had horrified himself enough to do the hard work. But those demons are more important to protect than anything else.

OP posts:
izzyizin · 06/03/2012 06:42

So, are you counting down to May of this year or are you looking at another 2/3 years of living death?

Abitwobblynow · 06/03/2012 07:05

May, Izzy. I told him (and both ICs) he had until then to demonstrably show he is tackling his behaviours, like reading a book/attending a programme/whatever, as long as it is ACTION, then he was to leave the family home. Rather controlling, but that was my boundary.

Instead of telling me what to do, are there others who could say 'I know what you are going through/me too/this is what I did' I would find that a great comfort. (thanks, those who have)

You see, for me my problem is not that he f ed some twat in our house for an extended period of time. My problem is not whether he loved her, didn't love her, used her. WhattheFever, man.

My problem is that he was SELFISH enough, inauthentic enough to blame me, split enough to have secrets/a double life and dishonest enough not to face reality. This is my problem. Because this problem, has been a continuum. Before, during - and after.

OP posts:
MadAboutHotChoc · 06/03/2012 09:33

I have to say that I am glad you have finally made a decision about your future and that you realise there isn't one with your H.

Good luck.

fiventhree · 06/03/2012 09:45

Abitw, it was your problem then, and it is your problem now, as you recognise.

I am not in the process of leaving, so I cant offer you much authentic practical advice. But I think if I were you, I would stop engaging with him and start focussing on myself. I think I would maybe see a counsellor to help support me in real life to look for techniques to force the 'thinking about him' and thinking about 'what went wrong' out of my mindset.

I think Bighouse, you and I have similar husbands. They are charismatic, political, good on womens rights (in theory) and intelligent. They are persuasive. But they come with a shitload of problems, stemming from their childhoods, and which possibly propelled them to become as successful as they now are. We, as intelligent women, didnt realise how invested we would become in them as projects when we met them. It can make them hard to leave. The thing is, these men use those skills they have developed to rationalise and intellectualise and justify all their actions. At the level of argument alone, they are unchangeable.

Only when we take action for ourselves, can we find ourselves again.

arthriticfingers · 06/03/2012 10:43

Abitwobbly, these are the books that used to be by my side of the bed: Lundy X 2; Susan Forward X 1; Shirley Glass; Relate on infidelity X1.
I threw them all away last week because I admitted to myself that I had bought them and I was reading them. Where was the sense in that?

Nyac · 06/03/2012 10:47

How long are you planning on staying with him? What's your splitting up date?

Also if you've read Lundy you shouldn't be sad, you should be angry. Men like this choose to behave the way they do. He knows he's hurting you, he either wants to or he just doesn't care.

Abitwobblynow · 06/03/2012 15:57

Arthritic ha ha! Too true! That is the issue.

OP posts:
arthriticfingers · 06/03/2012 18:00

One good thing is that head does not hurt nearly so much now I am not banging it daily against a brick wall Wink

mathanxiety · 06/03/2012 18:56

Wobbly, I haven't read the book but I will.

I have been married to the husband though. I can tell you how it ends if you like...

mathanxiety · 06/03/2012 19:01

It took me many years to stop giving him the headspace he had taken over. Time is the only thing that will set you free. You will never know if you are getting the truth out of him even if he ever does tell you the truth or start living with integrity.

Living without ever hearing an acknowledgement of what happened, with someone who will not honour you or respect you enough to acknowledge wrong, is soul destroying. The only cure is to not live with that person, and to cast the unanswered questions into the universe.

arthriticfingers · 06/03/2012 19:23

What mathanxiety said.
My last - in all senses - question. Was could he tell me why he could not or would not answer any of my questions.
Reply?
'because you're breaking my f*ing balls'
Obviously recanted because - I knew he didn't mean it and was only twisting his words Confused
Funnily enough, given how awful his behaviour has been over the years, it was this exchange that was the proverbial straw.

Hattytown · 06/03/2012 19:50

It's good that you've got a plan wobbly but be careful that May doesn't come and go....while you wait for the results, until the youngest starts at secondary school, until the AS levels etc....

Because you still seem to harbour hope that if he picks up a book or tells you a few truths, this will be a sign that he has changed. But he won't change and there's nothing you can do about that. You can only change your own response to it and make good decisions for your children.

Between now and the exams. get your affairs in order so that he can leave and you can manage on your own straightaway.

And stop hoping for a miracle. Put your faith in you instead and resolve to follow through on your plans.

arthriticfingers · 06/03/2012 20:44

Yes, Hatty, but hope can be so relentlessly enduring. In 'The Nest of Vipers' by the French writer Mauriac, one of the female characters is married to an abusive philanderer. She doesn't leave him because, Mauriac says 'She was one of those women for whom hope was an illness' :(

foolonthehill · 06/03/2012 20:52

someone once told me this (was it on MN...not sure...) the men and the abuse come in all forms, all shapes and all sizes but the women who love them all have this in common they are kind, forgiving and try too hard to fix what is broken.....

I have not found this to be untrue

Hope you can keep the escape plan alive and manage your hope appropriately (ie keep hope as hope for an abuse free future....since we are doomed to hope!!!!!)

who knew Mauriac could diagnose us so well????

teenyweenytadpole · 06/03/2012 22:34

Hi there, just read this thread with a wry smile as I have literally just ordered about five books from Amazon on one day delivery and this is one of them!! Long back story which I have posted about at length but just wanted to say I hear you about the co-dependency, haven't read this book yet but am hoping it will help me clarify my thoughts re. my DH. I am seeing a counsellor and that has been helpful but I must drive her insane as one week I am going to leave him and the next week I am giving things another go. I really need to decide what I want and then make some tangible plans. In my heart of hearts I really think it is "over" (lots of issues, not abuse but alcoholism, depression etc). However it's making that into a reality that I seem to struggle with. I also struggle with the timing - DD doing SATs this year and starting senior school, my Mum also just starting to show signs of coping with the loss of my Dad a year ago, I keep thinking "this is not the right time" but is there ever one? Sounds like you are pretty focussed and determined. Good luck to you and keep us posted. XX

mathanxiety · 06/03/2012 22:41

Malignant optimism.

There is never a good time to turn your life upside down. Might as well get on with it.

People like your H will never stop thinking everything is about him and his feelings. That is why no matter what you ask he will see it as a personal attack. He simply cannot conceive of a world where other people have feelings.

Abitwobblynow · 07/03/2012 07:17

Math I would like to hear more?

"your H will never stop thinking everything is about him and his feelings. That is why no matter what you ask he will see it as a personal attack. He simply cannot conceive of a world where other people have feelings." is devastating. How do you KNOW?

The reason all your talks to me are so important is that I do wonder if I am making a fuss/crazy.

Then I get determined again. This is the plan, he moves out 1 June. He doesn't know this yet, because even though I have told him and both ICs, he won't have believed me!

I am in tremendous grief at the moment. Please do not confuse grief with weakness. But it is the loss of hope you have all wisely pointed to. He REALLY IS like this. I REALLY DON"T exist. He REALLY IS not going to ever get it. I REALLY MUST save myself. [Then the doubtful voice kicks in] - but I know. I really must save myself.

So here is an example: this week (last week was the deadline) I have been sadly looking at how he does (see Math above) and has not responded in any way, and taking this ACCEPTANCE on board. No rage, no trying to 'explain', just accepting (very painful).
So now he has seen the withdrawing, and is becoming pathetic and self-pitying. Before I would have responded to the 'vulnerability' with hope, and started a new cycle, but now...

Very sad. I would like to hear how you left/what living alone was like, how things changed for you? Arthritic? Thanks for your 'I know' messages, they mean a hell of a lot.

OP posts:
Saffysmum · 07/03/2012 09:37

Hi OP, I started a thread year almost a year ago, because my STBX wanted to leave, but we decided that we would wait until 2 of our 4 kids had completed their exams; DD GCSEs and ES A Levels. Things deteriorated rapidly because he knew he would be leaving in the July, so he stayed out all night, treated me like shit...anyway, to cut a long story short, I kicked him out the April. I had to do this for my own sanity, and it went against all I wanted - because I wanted to put the kids first.

But kids, especially teenagers, know when things are wrong - the atmosphere at home was awful; we were all walking on eggshells. I couldn't bear to be near STBX - even in the same room as him.

So I kicked him out a few weeks before the first exams. And the kids coped brilliantly. They were more relaxed at home, the atmosphere and tension disappeared along with him. They both did really well in their exams.

What I'm saying is don't put up with more than you have to. If you're ok, the kids will be ok. I found the few weeks I knew that he was leaving, and the time he left, awful. I felt like I was sharing my home with a stranger; he was distant and cold, and every time I saw him it was like a knife in the heart. Looking back, there is no way I would have reached July, his initial departure date, (sounds like a jumbo jet!) without having a breakdown.

Do what's best for you - and what's best for you (in my experience) will be best for your kids.

Good luck.

CinnabarRed · 07/03/2012 09:53

Agree with Saffysmum - May is a long way away when you're living in hell. My father committed suicide a month before my GCSEs, and I coped. In fact, I got 10 A grades. Your children will cope just fine too. I bet you all the money in my pockets that they know full well how badly your H is treating you, and hate it.

fiventhree · 07/03/2012 10:09

Maths, I love this:

" cast the unanswered questions into the universe."

Abitw, you will never know; you cannot be certain, that certainty does not exist.

But if you focus on him, are you willing to take the risk that you will feel this bad, this time next year? What else will be worse then, in your life?

Actually, I did leave my exh in 1990, when I had two children. I also left my current h in 1992, for a few months.

It is shit at first and there is alot to sort out. You continue to feel lonely, and grieve the relationship.

But after a couple of months you really start to move on. You face the need to make other changes in your life, and you stop putting them off. You get out more, you force yourself. And finally, you start having some fun. Truly. That's how it was for me, anyway. And that is why I know I could still leave current h if he reverts at all.

Abit, do you have any nice plans for this week, or a weekend away in mind?

arthriticfingers · 07/03/2012 13:28

What Fool said.
I am treating my hope as if it is irrelevant. It is still there (like a stomach ache), Blush but it is NOT stopping me leaving.

Abitwobblynow · 07/03/2012 15:32

yes, 5. We are going to an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical, and then we are going hiking.

Arth: you are still preparing to go?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 07/03/2012 18:07

How I know that is that I was married to a man who told me a catalogue of lies even when he was making a confession of adultery to me, and was stupid enough to leave a trail of evidence that contradicted everything he said, even though the only thing that would have saved our marriage was for him to tell me the truth right from the start. (Though actually as it turned out I wouldn't have married him if he had told me the truth about himself).

What happened:
Broke the news to me that he had had a fling with some trollop he had met in a chatroom and insisted she wasn't a prostitute. He emphasised this point.
Something made me prick up my ears and pay attention to this insistence. I now see it as an effort to emphasise that he was in his own eyes a person who had standards (he had to look good in his own eyes) and also to obliquely emphasise that he had been carrying on with a woman. In other words, it was something he needed to tell himself, and at the same time a deliberate effort to prevent me from getting at what I suspect was the real truth.

They met in a hotel and went to her room where she started to give him a bj but he was stricken by shame and remorse before he finished the deed and he fled from her room.
I was Hmm. He had never let me give him a bj as apparently he didn't like that. When he was upset with me at a later date for not getting over myself fast enough and getting back into wife mode he claimed they had met in a corridor behind a bar and that he had not in fact gone to her room. Denied ever saying he had fled from her room, in her hotel.

Was in the chatroom in the first place discussing legal business with a client.
I was Hmm because legal business is by nature confidential and he was always very pompous about his professional ethics and other things that he considered sacred, including never even telling me who he had voted for.

Urged me to get a therapist or counsellor or confessor -- he had been talking with a priest for a year, since the incident, and really, really urged me to find a good confessor because it had done him a world of good.
I was Hmm at this 'I'm all right with god' baloney and found it deeply repellent. I also found utterly repellent the concomittent idea he strongly presented to me during that day that this was a matter between him and god primarily.

He had told me because although he had been told by the priest and by his parents, whom he had told immediately after this fling had allegedly happened, that he must never tell me, and just be a better husband as long as he lived, he could not live without my forgiveness.
Oh the utter humiliation that I felt when he told me that. I felt myself cringing and my cheeks burning and a wave of complete shame passed over me. I had spent Easter in the exILs' house and they had never even given me a hint. I know his mother and I know her mouth and I know that every single person who sat down and chatted with me or ate a meal with me had known what he had done or had allegedly done and there I was like a bloody fool, the last one to know. Telling me was utter selfishness on his part. Telling anyone was utter selfishness on his part. I still have no idea what he had told them though, or when. I have only his word that he told them right there and only his word that he told them what he had told me. He may have told them something completely different, even that he had consorted with a prostitute.

He phoned his pet priest a few hours after he had told me, when I was sitting on the couch in a state of shock and refusing to let him hold my hand, and told the priest he had told me, implying to the priest and to me listening in that the priest and I had both heard the same story, and added that I was upset because she is so sensitive -- his words.
Bloody hell. This man had not let my alleged 'sensitivity' inhibit him from calling me a bitch and a slob and a few other choice names over the years, nor had it held him back from threatening me with physical violence or carrying out his threats, or from his constant criticism daily, soul destroying criticism of me on matters ranging from baby weight, to dust, to how I worked in the kitchen cooking him his dinner (it was unacceptable that I would take out ingredients to have them ready and then not put them back until the meal was ready), to toys on the floor when he got home in the evening, to 'benign neglect' of the children, to what I had packed for the family for holidays. He had ground me down to a shadow of my former self over the years with his verbal abuse and the financial chaos we lived in due to his halfarsed pursuit of his dream of having his own legal practice, and now he was presenting himself as Mr Desperately Concerned Loving Husband who was delicately aware of his beloved wife's 'sensitivity' to this priest over the phone. I really got a very clear idea of who he was when I overheard that phone conversation.

I asked him for details: What was her name, what did she look like, what hotel was it; he shook his head and told me I didn't want to know. He told me to slap him instead. Again he restated the idea that it was a sin primarily and not a relationship matter.
I told him I didn't want to touch him and that if I did attempt a violent act it would be to stab him to death. He point blank refused to answer even the most basic questions I asked that same day or ever afterwards. I saw in this his unshakeable grandiosity, related closely to his religiosity.

Well it turned out that he had developed a rash, and had an appointment with a dermatologist a few days from the date he had told me, and over the course of the nest few months it emerged that he had been tested for HIV during the period between the alleged fling and the revelation. He said seven tests and then he said five tests. The dermatologist sent him home with some cream for his rash. It was a shaving-related rash -- he had taken to shaving himself all over, head to toe. exH is a hypochondriac on top of everything else and was sure he had AIDS.

That was just the start. After a continuous trickle of evidence on the internet that exH really liked porn and had joined hookup sites and dating sites, interspersed with doomed attempts at counselling, confessions by exH when I confronted him with specific items I had found but no volunteering of information or admissions on his part when I withheld information I had discovered, I came upon gay porn and realised that all the dating and hookup sites offered the opportunity to meet either men or women. Piecing it all together I began to suspect that exH had withheld some vital information from me right from the start.

Everything made sense in light of that stomach churning discovery, from his aversion to sex (sex with me anyway), to his hero worship of every older man he had ever worked for (the porn I found featured 'bears' and 'daddies'), to the body shaving, the depression and constant anger that lurked right under the surface, to his taste in clothing and his addiction to running and maintaining an ideal weight (I had wondered if he was bulimic but had told myself he was just keeping fit and who can argue with keeping fit). I never confronted him about the gay porn I found and he never told me anything about it. I realised that I would never get the truth out of him.

It took me years to stop obsessing and trying to dig out details from the computer and years to get through the grief and the guilt. Grief because I felt I had had my life stolen from me, and guilt that I had brought children into our horrible marriage while under the thrall of optimism that I could make things better. There was anger too, because I had been a sahm and had five children to think of, the youngest aged one when he broke his devastating news to me and the oldest 12, and how do you find a job and restart your life when your skills are rusty and you will need to provide childcare for children aged 1, 4, 7, 9 and 12? How will the children cope with divorce and losing their home? How could he have been so far distanced from our lives with our children that he could have thrown us all into the hell he threw us all into? The answer came to me as I read and read and read, that he was the sort of man who could only count as far as one, who genuinely felt that the world revolved around him, and that he was too far gone in his illusions to even try to hide this basic and horrifically ugly truth about himself while guarding the secret truth that he thought was the only thing that mattered.

The books I read described him to a tee. I was gobsmacked that he had behaved exactly to form and that even some of the things he said could have been predicted. There are people walking around in this world who lack some basic elements in their makeup and nobody and nothing can fix them.

arthriticfingers · 07/03/2012 18:11

Hi Abitwobbly
Yes, I am still planning to go.
The lawyer should call this week to finalize the separation documents.
All finances are separate.
Work seems to be picking up, so I should have a bit more money coming in
I am leaving the country we live in July as I have a job in Britain until September. I did this last year, but came back to him :( ; hope; promises; bla bla bla :(
Kids are grown, or almost. They still need both of us (especially me) desperately, but there is no need to organize finances for them
Don't want any of the assets - they would come at too high a price.
Just want out. :(