Does anyone else think this is a bit pervy...??

[RedZuleika]

Humour me...

Imagine a scenario where a father, as part of horseplay, regularly turns his 9/10 year old daughter over (onto a bed, chair etc) and spanks her lightly on her (clothed) bottom. Or slaps her bottom as she walks past him.

Well - does anyone else think this is a bit pervy...??

No, I don't think it's pervy, it's part of horseplay. What is the world coming to??!

Of course, it's impossible to make a proper judgement without seeing the entire family situation but on the face of it, no.

Thanks for your responses.

I've been mulling this overnight, particularly the context of the family. They are more, as Frogs put it, a family where "the atmosphere is generally strained and awkward, if there's a lot of anger, lots of things they don't talk about". They aren't a family which demonstrates affection easily and physically (kissing, hugging etc).

I agree that it's difficult for fathers of daughters and it could well be just naivety. I think the reason I find it unsettling is because of the above - and the fact of the mother's attitude. I know this sounds twisted and a bit old-fashioned, but I suspect (about 80% instinct on my part, about 20% comments which are made) that the mother is going to have difficulty with the burgeoning sexuality of her daughter - and thinks that she's in some way 'flirting' with her father, 'enticing' him.

I know that sounds sick, but that's my impression. It bewilders me that someone could demonstrate jealousy of their own child, but there you go.

Interesting to know what other people think anyway - it's difficult to know what is normal for other people in their households. I used to have a friend who would happily walk around naked in front of her father into her '20s. My father would have run away screaming...

mm I do this this puts a very different complextion on the situation and will revert to my initial instinct which is that it is inappropriate. How best to handle it in your shoes, I'm not sure. I think I would approach the daughter somehow...

I do think it's sad that we have to think like that but as someone else said, it's just alot nicer if the word 'pervy' was replaced with 'inappropriate'.
I just remembered actually , when i was living in Greece and going out with a greek guy who was in his 20's, he was standing at the oven cooking chickens feet 9gaga oneday and his mum came and yanked down his boxers!!(he had nothing else on) he was ttoally unphased and she thought it was hilarious!!

My dad never had any physical contact with me no playful contact horseplay etc etc one might say stand offish. This may be seen as wrong. So difficult to say what is right

It makes me uncomfortable, particularly the turning over onto bed/chair and spanking bit.

I remember being in situations where I felt horrendously uncomfortable yet unable to vocalise that I didn't want to be treated like this, or why.

I was unaware of my right to personal space and that's what strikes me about this situation too. Whether pervy/innapropriate, it would be healthy (IMO) for the girl to be made aware of her right to draw boundaries and the father to be made aware that his behaviour could be deemed innapropriate.

Does he have sons? If so, does he treat them similarly?

Hi, for years my father used to play strange games with me. My mother never liked the tickling games and always tried to stop them. He would play the same games with my siblings, but always played more with me.
As I got older, 8 or 9, he started to abuse me. At the time, although I did feel uncomfortable with it, I felt powerless to stop it.I have always been known as stubborn and loudmouthed. I was afraid of my father. My mother told me recently, she thought it was my fault, and that I was somehow "flirting" with him.
I longed for someone to notice and to step in and do something about it.
If you think it is inappropriate, mention it.

s not b .......

what you say is soooo similar that i just skimmed your post could barely read it ....all rang too many bells...my mum said that too...unforgiven

4b1p. I have a very bad relationship with my mother. She still sees me as a sexual competitor.
The only joy I get, is that he has had two strokes the bastard, fecking serves him right.
I tell people he is dead.
I HATE HIM!
It took me a long time to forgive the other adults that surrounded my childhood. I couldn't even forgive my elder brother for years, even though he is only five years older than me.
Please intervene, it sounds very suspect to me.

I'm sorry you don't like the word 'pervy' but really - 'inappropriate' is far too nice and polite and doesn't really convey the nauseous shiver I get from the notion of this.

Levanna: there are no sons. She's an only child.

Hi Reduleika

Can I ask a question? Have you seen other fathers playing with their daughters in this way and NOT thought anything of it? Is it that you think this type of horseplay bewteen a father and 10 year old is inappropriate in ALL families or is it this particular family?

If this behaviour is innocent then I would assume the father and daughter have a lovely close relationship and that if she wanted it to stop she would be able to say so.

It's a relief to read some of the responses here. I feel sorry for men too. My DH does things like this with our 3 year old dd and I have been wondering about what age such horseplay is considered inappropriate.

I know of two families with an only daughter and witnessed what I thought was inappropriate behaviour between a father and his teenage daughter. It was just tickling and as you call it 'horseplay' but to me it seemed inappropraite because I'd never have wanted to be that intimate with my father when I was a teenager.

I never thought it was pervy on the fathers part, however. It was clear to see that in these two families the daughters were daddy's girls and always had been. I felt sorry for their mothers who were always left out. I suspect, if the mother had stepped in and said the father and daughter must stop that type of horseplay they'd have been accused of being jealous. I'm confident there was nothing wrong in these families. The fathers were misguided and naive. They saw their 12/14/16 year old as the same little girl they'd always known.

Hello

I haven't seen it anywhere else in other families - but then I don't have a lot of contact with families with children this age. There is a part of me that thinks it's a bit inappropriate at this age because it's undignified and doesn't recognise the fact that this is no longer a small child. But also there's the fact that I was an early developer and at this age my body was starting to change.

In this particular case, I don't think I would think anything of it if it were an occasional slap on the bottom when passing. It's the turning over I don't like. I also find it strange that this is the only way that affection is expressed physically between them (apart from a kiss on the cheek at bedtime, say).

Blimey, normal in my house growing up. I was, still am, very close to my Dad and we had lots of rough and tumble and teasing play when I was younger (me and my brothers). I was nowhere near puberty at 10 either, God, I think I was 14.5 before my periods started and flat as a pancake till about 15!

I wouldn't think anything of it - provided the child seemed happy enough and it teh family were not worrying me in any other way

Red, what's your relationship with the family?

It does all sound a bit iffy to me - as Frogs said so eloquently, it could be ok in the context of a loving, demonstrative family but rather different if not .

Have just realised I avoid kissing my 15mo ds's bum. Not sure quite why .

My dd is 12 and ds 14 next month. We have always been a huggy, kissy family, teasing each other, and lots of play fights.

But the children have made it quite clear over the past 18 months that they are moving away from childhood, and we have to follow their lead.

No more parents in the bathroom when in the bath or bedroom when getting changed - quite sad that those days have gone, but it's lovely to see two young adults growing up (on their good days!!!)

I still give my ds a cuddle in his bed before he goes to sleep, but he'll tell me to buzz off when he wants to - although he still loves me to the moon and back!

Until a couple of years ago, my ds would ask to have a bath with me (we have got a very big bath!), if he was worried about something, and we'd chat it over thru' the bubbles.

It's all part of growing up and moving on, and sometimes that's quite hard.

Maybe RZ your friend is just struggling with his daughter growing up - particularly tough as she is an only child.

People who find it difficult to show affection often find other ways of doing it such as horseplay. If you were present i think its unlikely this man would be behaving in this way if there was more to it than just playing.

I think your attitude says more about your state of mind than his behaviour. Poor men can't go anywhere near their kids without some people accusing them of having bad motives

newbie, I disagree. There are many ways to show affection other than bum slapping, whether in the context of horseplay or not.

Are you going to question my state of mind too now?

Thanks for the criticism newbiemummy, but I was throwing this up in the air to see where it lands. I don't think it's necessary to start suggesting that I'm the one with the problem. There are more ramifications to this than I can detail here - but with the limited situation I can describe, I think it's reasonable to wonder aloud if this is something which occurs often in families.

But when I start lighting the bonfire, I'll let you know.

Your right there are many ways of showing affection its just that for whatever reason some people don't feel comfortable hugging and stuff so it tends to come out in a more of a playful way.

I just think its very very sad that a man can't play with his daughter without being accused of being a pervert.

Would you still be saying the same thing if it was the childs mother who was doing it??? answer honestly???

Can I just say that my father used to do this to me lots when I was little - even around the age you're discussing - and now I have a bit of a spanking fetish. Go figure.

I've changed my name for this.

Thanks for listening.

To be honest, I think I'd still think it was pretty odd if it was the mother.

I'm not saying a man can't play with his daughter, I'm questioning boundaries.

my dad used to tickle me. i hated it.

he also used to kiss me - goodbye, goodnight etc - but i DEFINATLY used to feel the very tip of his tongue.

once when he took me to school, i refused to give him a bye bye kiss- he yelled after me in the street 'bitch' - i was in junior school!

he used to make'jokes' about my pants smelling of fish.

when they were muck spreading on the fields at the back of our house he used to say it was my knickers.

he once told me men have needs and need to masturbate.

he once confided in me he hadnt had sex with mum for years and was going out for drives with a girl from my college (he was a mature student at the time)

once when i was very little, i woke up in the niht and he was there. i got very upset but cant remember anything other than getting up and putting abut 6 pairs of pants on (i dont remember why) then my dad saying i had got my bedding all twisted round me and he was sorting it out (which he could well have been) i put a bolt on my door some time after that though, for privacy.

when i was older, he used to make jokes abut my sex life - i once slept with a policeman and somehow he found out - he called me a pigporker.

He used to tickle me in front of mum, my mates etc etc - it looked like a very fun game, i am sure those watching would have gone ahh dont they have a close relationship.

I think something was very odd with him.

Now i pretend i have pogonophobia (fear of beards!) to avoid kissing him!

HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE

i play fight and tickle my kids but it is totally different. it truly does depend on what else is going on - tickling/slapping in itself says nothing.

Yes, it's a case of boundaries IMO.
Though, if it were mother rather than father it wouldn't strike me as innapropriate in the same sense, obviously ~ the larger percentage of sexual abusers are male.