I think we are going to have to split because of our parenting differences

[WinkyWinkola]

Dh and I are failing as parents. We cannot work as a team. We have both lost our temper with our children and shouted a lot. We shout at each other in front of the children. We are messing it all up. And I am 6 weeks pg with dc4. This is going to be garbled but I'm so upset.

Ds1 (6) is very defiant, hostile, uncooperative child prone to at least 3 rages every day. (I've been to the GP who says CAMBHS cannot help because his behaviour is perfect at school. Got an appointment with a private family therapist next week). Who knows - it could be because he feels conflict and upset between dh and I. It probably is. He's been like this since he was 2. I've posted many times about it.

Currently we are using the nice points and naughty points method. If ds1 gets to 100 points, he gets a prize - Hero Factory toy. He is sometimes responding to this. It bothers me though that every single thing like getting dressed, cleaning teeth, farting etc gets rewarded with a point. I think he should have to work a bit harder for his points. Dh does not and gives them out willy nilly to encourage him.

So, dh bought several presents/prizes (chosen by ds1 online) in readiness to distribute to ds1 when he gets 100 points (he gets 1 per 100 points). Ds1 wanted to see them this morning even though he knows what they are. I didn't think that was a good idea. I thought him knowing they were in the cellar should be enough for him and I know that soon he will try to open them and rage if I try to stop him. I said this to dh and he got in a strop. He got in a strop because he couldn't be Father Christmas again and said angrily to ds1, "No, you're not allowed to see the toys," and ds1 responded with a, "I hate you, daddy," which hacked off dh even more.

So, I went to the cellar. Got the box of prizes, dropped them on the floor in front of dh and ds1 and said there you are but don't blame me if the next thing he does is open them. I was pissed off and aggressive and I was very wrong but I'm so tired of dh playing Father Christmas and giving the children so muc stuff all the time. Dh told ds1 to ignore nasty mummy like he did when she is in a mood, just like he does and that horrible mummy is looking for an argument so just ignore her. That's what you do to horrible people.

Of course, the dcs (ds1 6, dd 4 and ds2 is too young) will do exactly what their dad asks them to do like getting dressed, cleaning teeth when they sense there is a dispute in the air between us. That gives dh great pleasure because it shows that he is the preferred and better parent. They adore him and they only want to be with him given the choice. It has always been that way ever since ds1 was 6 months old. He made his preferences very clear and dd is the same.

I am in effect without any 'power' - wrong word I know - when it comes to getting them to do stuff like getting dressed as they'll just say, "No. Want Daddy." They will just not do as I ask. Not without a fight and a strop and more often than not, a rage from ds1. Which of course makes me look crap and ineffectual. I just ask them to do stuff same as dh. But they won't cooperate. Dd is far more cooperative than ds1 but even she prefers to only do what dh asks her to do and ignores my requests.

Dh now says he will get them dressed in the mornings for school and I am not to contribute to this in any way to this part as I stress everyone out and upset everybody apparently.

I know I sound childish. I am childish and self pitying but I just feel like ultimately, I have no real place in this family. Yet it is me who ferries them about to their various play dates, karate and swimming. They only ever want their dad to go with them to parties. In fact, they only want their dad for anything really. So when I need to get them to do something, they just won't and again, I fail.

Aside from the practicalities, it really really hurts my feelings. I feel like they all put up with me. Dh makes it clear that he thinks unless I do what he thinks wrt parenting then I'm not doing a good job. In fact, he has said before that he thinks ds1 is the way he is because of me. I'm not sure how really but he has said that.

You know, after a rage about bedtime last night, ds1 came to me and asked if he could sleep in my bed. I said yes because he was clearly still upset and it seems comforts him. Probably because he feels closer to his father.

I don't know why it is like this but I feel so miserable and lost. I actually just want to disappear. I've arranged to see a marriage guidance lady next week and she also does family therapy and can recommend other family therapists if there is an overlap with marriage and family issues that we feel need to be very separate.

How do I handle this better? Please don't have a go at me as I know I'm doing a crap job but give me some advice. I don't see how it could get better really given that everyone seems entrenched in their 'positions'.

your husband sounds like a right twat why cant you get them ready in the mornings telling you its unreasonable to do it because it courses stress is out of order. it seems like he wants things done his way and hes shuting you out and leting the children take his side. it should never be this way you should both work together has a team. or it wont work at all. tell him how you feel that you both need to work together i assume youve done this but its fallen on death ears. i dont think your doing a crap job you need support from your husband.

hope some more people come who will help you out on thread.

Yes, I feel totally shut out. I've talked to him about appearing as a united front wrt the children and he nods etc but ultimately, he thinks I am a shouty, stressy parent and crap.

He is capable of being that way himself but because the dcs only respond to him (they are not scared of him - they adore him), it doesn't matter.

If I left, it just wouldn't matter really. I know that sounds self pitying but he would just get a nanny in. Ds1 and dd always ask me why can't I work and dh stay at home.

I don't understand. Perhaps I should leave and take ds2 with me. But I can't leave my dcs. I'm not looking for a 'return' from my dcs in terms of affection etc but I am finding it so hard to function when they are really uncooperative and dh seems to be the only one who can get them to do stuff. I am not blaming the dcs btw. I think they are in a very confusing situation.

Your children don't respect you because your husband doesn't. They have seen from his behaviour that they don't need to. They prefer him because he childishly hands out toys.

The family therapy is a great idea, but you will need a good therapist because they are going to turn up expecting to hear how it is all your fault. And that isn't the case.

I think you and your DH need to work on this and the children's behaviour will change when that changes. If he can't see any of this then I'm really sorry, but your thread title might be right.

It sounds like there is much more going on in the relationship between you and you H.
He sounds very controlling and to me it looks like the children are learning behaviours from him.
I think that seeing the marriage guidance lady on your own seems like a great idea to start with, but I would make sure you keep it to just you and her while she hopefully helps you to explore the relationship between you and your H.

have you suffered from depression or anything thats coursing you to think you cant be a good mum?

I don't think I've suffered from depression. Parenthood was a big shock but I never felt depressed per sE.

I feel extremely low now though.

How can I be a good parent when I cannot get my dcs to put on pants and vest on? And my h thinks I'm crap too.

Wow, I really think you do need time apart.

He may not have intended to bit, over time, he has completely undermined your position with the children.

They need time with you to learn that they do as you say and that there is noone else there who will overrule you and be their mate rather than their parent.

It sounds like a nightmare for you.

Dh now says he will get them dressed in the mornings for school and I am not to contribute to this in any way to this part as I stress everyone out and upset everybody apparently.

^^This is just awful and upsetting to read. He should be saying to the children that you are to be listened to and respected and that they are NOT to come running to him when they don't want to do something.

I do think the key is that your H is telling you that you are 'crap' at things, it seems to me that he is making sure that you look crap at what you do.

Does he often shower the dc's with gifts or bribe them (other than the points/gifts) with gifts to get them to do what he wants.

Yes. They went to toys r us on Sat and came back with a toy for dd as she had reached 100 points. And play doh and paints and paper. And colouring in for ds2. But we'd run out of play doh.

Does DH ever give out the naughty points? Do you ever get to go out with the older kids and buy the rewards?

Bet the answer to both those is no.

One suggestion: let him get them ready every single morning and refuse to get involved. I bet you that he starts to struggle after a few days. I also bet you that he starts trying to get you involved on one pretext or another. He can't be good cop forever when there is no longer a bad cop around. Call his bluff.

I'm irrationally angry with this man even with the barest outline of your situ.

AND try to insist that your GP refer your DS1 to a paediatrician. Also post on the special needs: children board on here to see if anyone has any advice.

I'm not saying there is anything underlying his behaviour but surely it would be good to rule it out.

if parent hood was a big shock for you maybe the answer lies there maybe you wasen,t ready for it when it happened did you have a carier? then have kids giving up who you were before can be pretty overwhelming and make you depressed. your husband is not helping playing the saint who can,t do no wrong.

Oh dear, your children are stuck in the middle of your power struggle with your husband, I am not meaning that nastily, as I have been in a lesser but still very stressful position when I was younger. I think one of the nastiest things anyone can do to you is undermine your confidence as a parent, because it is destructive to both the children and you. For me, it's a deal-breaker now, and I simply won't have anyone telling me I'm a crap mother.

I am sure you are not a crap mother whatsoever. Of course you are shouty and stressy, you have a dad who is siding with the children and excluding you, which makes it twice as hard to parent.

I'm afraid I don't have any good advice, except to go to the family counselling. But also know that it's not healthy to set one parent against another, or to bribe children, so I would dispute that your husband is the 'good parent' in this situation.

As for telling me I couldn't get my own children ready for school, well, he can sod off. That is incredibly controlling. There is a place for robust feedback (my husband has told me when I am shouty and stressy and I have told him when he's being a **head) but this is far more than this, it's making you feel excluded in your own home.

Can you also strengthen yourself, if you see what I mean, doing relaxation, getting extra help in, so you don't feel so out of control and start to see that you are actually fine as a mum. You sound worn out and worn down.

I don't think you are crap at all. It is possible the situation has just ground you down enough to feel like you are lacking.

You don't have to leave, but find some space to be just you. Find that strength again, that I am sure you have.

Is it possible that you could work?

Or if you do leave, I think it could be good. You might find that you slowly and surely return to who you are, strong and capable. The children will respect you more if you don't have another adult putting you in the wrong.

Your dh is undermining you and it's not good. Let him do more, have a break from it.

schope has a good point don,t help out let them all get on with it for a while see how they all cope without you. if you feel that you can no longer get on with your husband or hes controlling you may have to rethink the relationship.

Maybe the dh isn't a twat. Maybe he handles the children better than winky. I'm sorry, but from the op it does sound like you are shouty and stressy and that it is making everyone unhappy. I don't blame you - I would probably be shouty with three dcs - but maybe you need to look at what you are doing instead of your dh. Perhaps he can't stand the morning angst and thinks he can fix it. Let him have a go. If it works, maybe you can learn something from him.

My dh loves buying stuff for our dcs. He had a deprived childhood and it makes him happy. Sometimes I think it is too much and I have a quiet word with him. I do not make a fuss about it in front of the dcs so they think I am the bad guy.

Hi Winky,

I really feel for you but the truth is this is at least as much about you and your children as it is about you and your husband. You say it yourself - THEY use the 'I want Daddy' argument to reduce your 'power'. You know its not about 'power', you say that, so perhaps the first step is to identify what you want you relationship with your children to be. I know its a nightmare with nearly 4 children, but let more stuff go, so the struggle, and recourse to Daddy the hero, csnnot develop. Once your children realise there is no mileage to be gained in playing off one parent against another because you are simply not interested in entering into a struggle with them, not only will your husband's response be much less pertinent, but they will eventually stop doing it as they achieve nothing.

And of course you get no thanks for ferrying them around. But you also get nighttime cuddles...

Wise words from you all. Thank you. I'm taking it all in. So grateful for support.

Oh pore pore you Winky.

Your dh is a TOTAL ARSE.

He is undermining you and that is why the dc take no notice of you. It is extremely important for parents to back each other up and put on a united front, any disputes can be resolved in private.

You need family therapy. He needs to see the dynamic he has created.

Big hugs.

What was his childhood like? And his r'ship with his mother? Is he playing out past issues?

It sounds like he is trying to shut you out and "punish" you.

"ultimately, he thinks I am a shouty, stressy parent and crap. "

Well, not to be harsh but it does sound like you're a shouty, stressy parent. Your post makes it sound almost like you view the children more as something to be 'managed' than cared for.

Here's a first step to getting more respect and obedience from the kids: Have your dh tell them to 'do what mummy says' instead of directly asking them to 'get dressed' etc. They'll initially only be doing it because he's telling them to, but subconsciously it will reinforce the idea they should do what mummy says. It'll become routine to the point where they know he's going to say that every time, so they'll just do what you say. Ultimately the goal is to get them so used to it that they'll do it when he's not around too, but that may take some time.

I think both of you need more patience. It's no surprise you've got kids that throw tantrums if you two are constantly losing your temper too.

Can I also say, the first thing to stop needs to be the passive-aggressive sniping between you with the children in the middle, I know you didn't say it, but him saying 'nasty mummys doing XYZ' has to stop NOW. And you need to get a grip on your temper, going and dumping the toys on them just inflamed the situation (which you know).

When things are calmer, not during the school run, I would talk to your husband, and say, you have to stop saying anything about 'nasty mummy' or making comments about me through the children. I would also say you know you can get shouty and stressy and that you do sometimes feel overwhelmed, but that you need support, not more arguments'. Try to see if you can work together to get the emotional temperature in the house down (I have this problem too, we are all quite volatile). You can play your part in this by lowering your own emotional temperature (as I am writing, I am saying this to myself too).

And, perhaps for the time being, one parent does need to do the school getting ready and the other the evenings. Both parents doing both, especially if they are prone to temper/stress/control issues, can be horrendous. I used to go to work early and leave them to it, or do it all myself for this reason.

I'd use his behaviour as a chance to have a rest/recoup and come back as a less shouty person. If they want Daddy, say 'ok' and let them have Daddy. Take the opportunity to go in the garden and get some fresh air or to have a cup of tea and a sit down with a good book. If they want Daddy to get them dressed for school have a lie-in. Just be calm, leave the room if necessary, refuse to get involved. When my DCs are playing up with getting ready etc I just tell them I am going and put the clothes down and leave the room, go and do something else which makes them panic a little. Now DD is older I race her to see who can put their clothes on first, or try and squeeze myself into her vest/put my pants on her head etc.

After a while it would be nice to have time with each child individually, doing something that they want to do and is hard because there are so many competing siblings. Bake perhaps, or read, go to the park. Rebuild a relationship with each child doing something enjoyable.

Right now you are the baddy to Daddy's goody. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the baddy was removed.

And your DH is definitely at fault here. My DH would not do this, would not ban me from getting involved in any aspect of my children's care. Right now I am the preferred one, but I am always encouraging them to play with Daddy, coming up with things he can do with them, make myself busy or unavailable so they ahve to go to him. My DS wouldn't let DH do his bedtime so I pretended that I was unable to read two of his favourite stories, my eyes became broken, so he took them to DH and now they are 'Daddy books'. He is playing games with the children's minds which is awful.

I bet the kids respond to your body language and tone of voice. My guess is yours reveals total defeat and his says he is very happy with his little lot!

He's doing his family a big diservice but be careful about your response in front of the DC's.

In psychological terms intrinsic reward is the most valuable - praise and smiles and disapproval for naughty behavior (i'm talking facial expression, not punishment).

Extrinsic reward ie prizes are more effective when they come as a surprise. Think of gambling and how the reward of a surprise payout keeps people putting in the effort.

I have seen token systems lead to children reversing the psychology and threatening a return to bad behaviour unless they are allowed to dictate terms!!! Your DC is doing them no favours with this nonsense!
In fact I agree he is putting his DC's needs second to his need to be the big cheese! Maybe he is controlling or maybe it's small man syndrome. Either way he needs to think about going to parenting classes or reading up on basic psychology.