I think we are going to have to split because of our parenting differences

[WinkyWinkola]

Dh and I are failing as parents. We cannot work as a team. We have both lost our temper with our children and shouted a lot. We shout at each other in front of the children. We are messing it all up. And I am 6 weeks pg with dc4. This is going to be garbled but I'm so upset.

Ds1 (6) is very defiant, hostile, uncooperative child prone to at least 3 rages every day. (I've been to the GP who says CAMBHS cannot help because his behaviour is perfect at school. Got an appointment with a private family therapist next week). Who knows - it could be because he feels conflict and upset between dh and I. It probably is. He's been like this since he was 2. I've posted many times about it.

Currently we are using the nice points and naughty points method. If ds1 gets to 100 points, he gets a prize - Hero Factory toy. He is sometimes responding to this. It bothers me though that every single thing like getting dressed, cleaning teeth, farting etc gets rewarded with a point. I think he should have to work a bit harder for his points. Dh does not and gives them out willy nilly to encourage him.

So, dh bought several presents/prizes (chosen by ds1 online) in readiness to distribute to ds1 when he gets 100 points (he gets 1 per 100 points). Ds1 wanted to see them this morning even though he knows what they are. I didn't think that was a good idea. I thought him knowing they were in the cellar should be enough for him and I know that soon he will try to open them and rage if I try to stop him. I said this to dh and he got in a strop. He got in a strop because he couldn't be Father Christmas again and said angrily to ds1, "No, you're not allowed to see the toys," and ds1 responded with a, "I hate you, daddy," which hacked off dh even more.

So, I went to the cellar. Got the box of prizes, dropped them on the floor in front of dh and ds1 and said there you are but don't blame me if the next thing he does is open them. I was pissed off and aggressive and I was very wrong but I'm so tired of dh playing Father Christmas and giving the children so muc stuff all the time. Dh told ds1 to ignore nasty mummy like he did when she is in a mood, just like he does and that horrible mummy is looking for an argument so just ignore her. That's what you do to horrible people.

Of course, the dcs (ds1 6, dd 4 and ds2 is too young) will do exactly what their dad asks them to do like getting dressed, cleaning teeth when they sense there is a dispute in the air between us. That gives dh great pleasure because it shows that he is the preferred and better parent. They adore him and they only want to be with him given the choice. It has always been that way ever since ds1 was 6 months old. He made his preferences very clear and dd is the same.

I am in effect without any 'power' - wrong word I know - when it comes to getting them to do stuff like getting dressed as they'll just say, "No. Want Daddy." They will just not do as I ask. Not without a fight and a strop and more often than not, a rage from ds1. Which of course makes me look crap and ineffectual. I just ask them to do stuff same as dh. But they won't cooperate. Dd is far more cooperative than ds1 but even she prefers to only do what dh asks her to do and ignores my requests.

Dh now says he will get them dressed in the mornings for school and I am not to contribute to this in any way to this part as I stress everyone out and upset everybody apparently.

I know I sound childish. I am childish and self pitying but I just feel like ultimately, I have no real place in this family. Yet it is me who ferries them about to their various play dates, karate and swimming. They only ever want their dad to go with them to parties. In fact, they only want their dad for anything really. So when I need to get them to do something, they just won't and again, I fail.

Aside from the practicalities, it really really hurts my feelings. I feel like they all put up with me. Dh makes it clear that he thinks unless I do what he thinks wrt parenting then I'm not doing a good job. In fact, he has said before that he thinks ds1 is the way he is because of me. I'm not sure how really but he has said that.

You know, after a rage about bedtime last night, ds1 came to me and asked if he could sleep in my bed. I said yes because he was clearly still upset and it seems comforts him. Probably because he feels closer to his father.

I don't know why it is like this but I feel so miserable and lost. I actually just want to disappear. I've arranged to see a marriage guidance lady next week and she also does family therapy and can recommend other family therapists if there is an overlap with marriage and family issues that we feel need to be very separate.

How do I handle this better? Please don't have a go at me as I know I'm doing a crap job but give me some advice. I don't see how it could get better really given that everyone seems entrenched in their 'positions'.

Sorry praise and smiles for good behaviour, disaproving facial expression and tone of voice for naughtiness!

You do realise that if you split up then he will/can just carry on parenting how he likes when he has access time...... Don't you?!?

If you are just thinking of leaving him to resolve this issue, I am not sure that it will. He will continue to be the good parent just as he is now.

To some degree I had a similar issue with my own children. They both went through a phase (which lasted going on for 2 years) of preferring their father to me. They would always ask for him and often cry if I had to do something for them.

For a while I made an issue of this with them. Then I realised with horror that I was making small children responsible for my happiness. The only person really responsible for that is me. My approach was when they asked for daddy to say "OK, but just so you know - I love you and always will". I also told myself that it was OK if they preferred dh as long they loved me too.

I also decided to act like super mummy. I imagined that I was parentlng in front of an audience who were judging what I was doing and assessed my actions from their perpective. I found eventually that some of the feigned behaviour became habit.

I also decided to stop sweating and stressing about the small things. I was doing certain things because I thought that my mother would expect me to, which was ridiculous with hindsight. I tried to stop doing this - I dd wanted to go to school without her hair brushed, no problem. If ds didnt brush his teeth, I would pass it off with a joke.

These are not perfect solutions, but changing your approach to the situation is the easiest thing for you to change.

Would add that now, when my children wake in the night, they come to me. If they fall, they come to me. I know they loved and need me.

This sounds very sad.
It seems your role in the family is reduced to maid, cook and chauffeur, with no appreciation from your kids because...there is no appreciation from your husband. This is a classic pattern in abusive/dysfunctional families where one person is made to feel it is all their fault and whatever you do is never good enough.

You definitely need therapy...on your own. Then possibly with your husband...but he may not react well to therapy if you are both parents yet all parenting issues are your fault it sounds like your DH takes no responsibility for anything that goes wrong and takes the easy way out (presents and money etc) to get his children's approval.
In the long run neither you nor the children will benefit from this. You will be ground down and your children will be spoiled and emotionally stunted.

It would be good if you could go away for a few days, if you are such a crap mum then logically your DH will cope fine in the days you are away (ha ha ha, I suspect not).

Even the most clueless of fathers generally says "do as your mother tells you" which was my father's contribution to parenting when we were little, however it is impossible to assert any form of control or organisation if someone continually undermines you as your DH is doing.

PS I suspect your younger son's rage come from conflicted emotions: he loves you and wants to be with his mum and be close to her, but the rest of the family dynamic is that mum is a joke and not to be listened to or paid attention to so your son really needs you but knows he will get huge peer disapproval if he expresses his love therefore he is dreadfully confused and angry and unable to cope with that anger. Your DH, who has caused this situation deflects all family anger to be taken out on you, but your son is internally resisting this and so his confusion manifests as rage. I would go to family therapy on your own and with your son and let him know you love him, this will help his confusion and anger.
However, if your DH continues to foster the dynamic currently in the house your son cannot heal because even if the therapy sessions go well, he will return to the home environment where all anger is directed against you, so at some point your DH will need to take responsibility for what he has created, and it may be up to you to change the dynamic, this will be hard.

Oh if we split up he will fight me for custody every step of the way.

And ds1 is already renegotiating the points and rewards system, saying he will only get dressed/clean teeth/do homework if we give him even more nice points or reduce his naughty point tally. he clearly sees a lot of room for manoeuvre.

I do shout. So does dh. It's terrible. it's so far from good enough.

Dh's parents used to shout. In fact he told me his mum used to scream! Yikes. He adores his parents though and they are very very close. That is another issue though!

My mum just had to give me a look or snap at me and I would behave. Both my parents actually. And they are amazed at my ds1's volatile anger and mine and dh's inability to manage it. And yes, I think the practical side of childcare is a lot of management but that can slip into managing the child.

Dh would argue that I am not supportive of his point scheme and therefore not helping him.

I don't necessarily mind not doing anything with the children in the morning. I do mind bring told I cannot and must not because I only bring negativity into the environment.

If I were getting them ready, I'd be saying."Mummy and Daddy say you need to get dressed now." etc.

I wonder if h is trying to make me want to leave?

take this thread and discss with family therapist - that is a really good starting point.

you could bullet point on a paper the issues as you see them

and some of the suggestions here and go thru them

give yourself a few sessions to then think up strategies with the therapist

feel positive that by taking action "seeing someone) you are taking a positive step to change the situation for the better -and to decide what outcome would be best

How would he react if you were to show him this thread?

(I'm not saying you necessarily should I'm just trying to get a better sense of him as a person. He is definitely contributing to the poisonous dynamic in your family but I'm not sure if that's how he wants it to be or if he's struggling to cope and lashing out like you are).

Stick the kids in the car, put all of those bribery presents in the boot and take them to the tip! Get rid of the toys and ridiculous 'points' system

If he's pushing you to leave him then nothing you do will be right anyway

I am with Hully.

Your DH is an arse. Ein Arsch mit Ohren, as my German DH would put it.

He is the problem, not the kids.

How fucking DARE he call you "nasty mummy" to the kids? That is utterly appalling.

I would stop the treat and reward system as it is obviously not working. I recently read the How To Talk book and really liked the ideas that the authors set out. It might be an interesting read for you.

Your children are not being taught to respect you, by their father, and so don't respect you or recognise your authority.

Your H is being an arse. You are a team, he is well out of oder. [angr

I find your op interesting winky, as a few things sound familiar but on the other side of the fence. I think my dh is a stressy shouty parent and I probably undermine him sometimes (although I never say anything in front of the kids to criticise like your dh). But I have asked him not to get involved in getting the dc (i also have 3) dressed in the morning because he has very little patience and it always ends up with one or more dc crying. I don't like that tension when we are all trying to get out the house. I do it all myself and its fine so I'd be wary of agreeing to not getting involved thinking it all might unravel... it might not and then you will just feel more alienated.

I do recognise that my dh had lost his confidence in handling the kids and if I just do it all it will only get worse. I've mentioned to dh that we should go on a parenting course so we agree to doing things the same way. But then I want my dh to be involved (if its constructive) hopefully your dh is the same. It doesn't sound too much like it from your op but that could just be what you think at the moment as you are down. I think you need a calm conversation with dh to agree that you both want to stay together and parent together.... then get help to go that.

But your op has helped me think more about my behaviour... even if I don't say anything perhaps my kids pick up on my upset over his parenting. They regularly tell him they don't want him... only me.

I would drop the po

Drop the points thing, it won't work.

Your dh needs to back you up, say mummy is right listen to her.

No wonder you are frustrated.

Oh and do tell him (DH) that he should demonstrate better communication skills to his DCs.

Teaching them to communicate by snidey little asides to others is likely to gain them few friends!

If he wants to disagree with you, the adult way would be to talk about it directly to you away from the children and if there is still disagreement bring in a mediator (preferably with sound parenting training.) A parenting course such as Triple P would be useful as they often provide this sort of backup.

Your son is showing his insecurity at not being provided with loving caring boundaries, bless him. I can understand how frustrated he must feel.

You and DH need to act like the adults not the children. You both need to stop the shouting, sulking, throwing the toys on the floor and sarking at each other - your DC will not respect this kind of behaviour and will copy it.

The undermining by your DH is shocking. If he really loves the DC, surely he can understand he is not doing them any favours by teaching them to disrespect their mother?

Agree with all the posters who said that you should ditch the points system. Good behaviour should the expected norm in the house, not subject to bribery or reward.

Would DH go to mediation or family therapy to address these issues? You need a supernanny style action plan with rules for you and DH to abide by. The first of those rules should be to support each other and always present a united front to the DC.

The part about ignoring horrible mummy is so awful I feel angry just reading it.

I'd also suspect this is learned behaviour from childhood and he was not encouraged to be in control or independent then either. Overpowering, passive aggressive parents could have this effect (not an expert obv).

Ah you must feel surrounded.

Oh dear, He is using your own children to undermine and abuse you.

I'm not surprised you feel the way you do. You must be desperate! How could your own husband tell your dc's that you are nasty! That is not only abusive to you, but actually to them too! How horrible! I'm not surprised you are stressed!

And I am not remotely surprised at your ds's reaction either! Poor mite, must be so conflicted, he loves his parents, and to hear you being called nasty, and be expected to agree somehow, is disgusting, and rather disturbing.

You need to speak to your GP, HV, or someone about this in RL, because it is going to cause life long damage to your dc.

And second absolutely what Miggsie said about your ds.

Talking as a separated mum of 4dc aged 6,5,3 and 1...I relate a lot to your post. Where you say you feel you have no place in your family, that makes me so sad. I remember that feeling well.

My stbxh and I had similar issues with parenting. He was very soft and inconsistent, I was stricter and stuck to what I was strict about. He regularly undermined me with the kids and yet also happily sat back and did nothing, expecting me to always correct their behaviour. I resented the 'nasty mummy' and 'fun daddy' thing so much.

There were many other issues in our marriage and we separated six months ago. I can tell you now, these past six months have been the best in my life. My relationship with my children now is so so much better. We laugh, dance, toy fight, hug and tell each other we love each other. They are very good children that help me about the house, help each other and generally very well behaved. Now and again my eldest has a bad patch but there is always a reason for it.

I stress, I am not suggesting separation is the answer but if you don't respect each other and support each other, it stands to reason your kids will play up. Family guidance sounds a good idea.

Your husband is emotionally abusing you and your children.

Get help on your own, and think seriously about getting him out of the house.

He will do a lot less harm if he can't actively destroy your children's relationship with you.

I must say that my abusive stbxh did a lot of very similar things, and since he has been gone, the children are happier, although they are sad that the family has split, they are calmer. I have a better relationship with both of them, and because he played divide and rule with them as well, it created a lot of resentment and bad feeling between them. That is now beginning to improve too. Separated for five months now, and they are both improved at school as well. Noticeably so.

Not something you want to hear I don't doubt OP, but it's not uncommon for abusive men to play the "terrible mother" card, not at all unusual.

I'm sorry.

We have both lost our temper with our children and shouted a lot. We shout at each other in front of the children.

Ds1 (6) is very defiant, hostile, uncooperative child prone to at least 3 rages every day.

he is just copying you. you two are having rages every day so why would you expect him to be any different. You are teaching him thats how people behave