WWYD?? DC2 being forbidden to make own choices by DF.

[joruth]

Asked DH to leave 2.5 months ago after years of emotional and verbal occasionally physical abuse to me and 4 DCs (all primary school age). His controlling and angry behaviour escalated so have reduced contact to Saturdays only currently (informally with his consent). DCs love and hate him in equal measure.

Part of abuse to DCs has involved his angry outbursts and control around choices they make including (and especially) instruments that they are learning. Daughters have "managed him" but son has fewer skills in this way and is also picked on much more. In the end DS's first choice instrument got so involved in the shouting and his emotions that he has not been able to contemplate touching it even now that his father is out of the house.

DS has now voluntarily chosen a different instrument, one that his father does not play, through school and with the music teacher's approval and support. I have told him it is his choice and that we will support him but that he knows that he will have to practise regularly etc etc.

Mentioned this to DH before Christmas, he said "isn't a "proper" instrument" "very limiting" he thinks it's a bad choice...I left the discussion open.

Today (DC3's birthday) special pancake breakfast with Dh and GPs present before he takes them out for his regular contact. DCs talking about what they are doing and DC1 mentions the alternative instrument: cue fireworks for 40 minutes in front of GPs, me DCs and all. No holding back, lots of personal stuff and accusations about my character, wifely duties etc. He has forbidden DS to play the instrument and I am not to make decisions that are his to make. I did not (apparently) talk to him first and Dc IS NOT ALLOWED to give up his first instrument...never mind whether he is actually able to play it or not.

He is their parent, he has parental responsibility, BUT he is damaging them.....WWYD?????? I can't protect my darling children, I don't know what to do.

I think at this point I would see a solicitor.

His attitude is extremely damaging to your DCs. And as he is an abusive bully, you really aren't going to be able to a. Be enough of a bully yourself to control his nastiness or b. speak any sense to him and get him to understand the damage he's doing.

The best, indeed the ONLY way to make it so that a 'man' like this can have a relationship with his children that doesn't involve crushing them is to get the law onside to help you protect them while they have a relationship with him.

I would be stopping contact from today, seeing a solicitor and seeing what can be done to make him realise that he can't behave like this and spend time with them.

What do his parents make of this, how did they react and what kind of relationship do you have with them?

Yes, he has parental responsibility, but he's not parenting - he's abusing and bullying.

Agree with theCrunch, you need to formalise this. You can't let him damage the children like this. Also as far as I'm concerned the instrument choice should be the childs and not the parents at all. He sounds awful.

Yes TCU I guess the law is probably the only way....I was trying to do it as amicably as possible as advised by Social services that if we could it would be best for everyone (DCs reported him to SS themselves!! but file closed now as by the time they saw us I had kicked him out).

His parents are somewhat sensible though I suspect their parenting skills may have some hand in the way he is now IYSWIM. I think they try to see it as 50:50 relationship problem, then keep getting smacked in the face by his unreasonable behaviour. I have never asked them what they think as it seems cruel and he has frequently "excommunicated" his mother when she has done/said something of which he disapproved.

He told me that his parents hate me but actually we seem to have a fine relationship, they come round to see DCs and me, no problems. I have apologised for some things that happened when we together as I did/do feel that my relationship with DH had bad effect on my relationship with them ( he kept telling me how to behave around them...i did and it backfired!!! Still my fault though ).

Eglu he is awful, and his awfulness has only been thrown into greater focus by the fact he is not here any more...you'd think he'd be able to hold it together for a couple of hours!

Anyone fund my flight to AUS?????

He's sounds utterly vile, thank goodness you kicked him out. I agree with the others, see a solicitor and stop contact. Make him take you to court for contact, that way he will be assessed by CAFCASS and you will have an opportunity to make them aware of your concerns about your DCs welfare when they are around him. Well done for getting such a nasty bully (almost) out of your life.

If that's the action that your own DC took then that tells you a lot.

Stop contact.

Apart from the effect on the children, taking a decisive step like this is good for YOU too. Keeping amicable is fine, allowing an abuser to still abuse is not. You won't stay amicable over this, so the best thing you can do is hit hard and let him know he's not going to get to continue to behave like this.

Others may disagree but I'd let the grandparents know what you are doing next and why. Perhaps take that opportunity to say that you understand that they need to support their DS, but to say once and for all that you hope they can understand that this is NOT a 'relationship problem', it is an ABUSE problem, that they have seen for themselves the damage he is causing, and that you won't allow their grandchildren to be abused in this way. And that you hope that their support will make it possible for their relationship with the grandchildren to continue unchanged.

Quite!

Although to be fair they were taking part of an "anti-bullying" week at school and were talking about it to their teacher as an example of bullying and then continued the conversation after.

I have never been prouder than of the stand they took that day...even though I was already part way through a risk management strategy to get him/us out.

That aside I really want to know what, if anything I can do about the instrument?? It feels urgent for DS. he will miss out if it is not sorted now.

I have told him I will not be telling the school anything and he will have to phone and talk to them himself.

What do people do when there are 2 people with parental responsibility and one is behaving like this, or even disagreeing amicably. In the past I would have just rolled over (sigh) I was under such emotional pressure, but I want the DC to see that they can make reasonable decisions for themselves and be supported. Especially DS

God, I'm so glad you got rid of him!
I agree entirely that it is going to be next to impossible to keep this "amicable" with him still thinking he can control every move you and the DC make.
Take it to a solicitor - FFS, he really is an amazing bully!
And I also agree with TCU that you should keep the ILs informed because they have seen how unreasonable and awful he is.

It was interesting that you say he groomed you to behave around his parents in a way that didn't work out well - what an evil shit thing to do, trying to ensure that they didn't like you! Glad his parents have enough sense to decide for themselves that you are a reasonable person - keep showing them your natural self and you'll probably get on fine with them now!

You might have to go to supervised contact for your DC and your ex, if he carries on the abuse in the way he is - especially if your DS holds fast to his plans re. the musical instruments - you don't really want him to be bullied by his father when they're alone together, do you. :(

Of course you can make decisions, they aren't his to make actually, they're yours. You are the resident parent. How old are the children? Could they choose not to see him? You could support them in that choice.

Sorry, xposted - what do you mean, what can you do about the instrument? Why would you bother? If your DS wants to play the new one, let him! There's no point paying out for lessons etc. on an instrument he doesn't want to play, is there? That's just letting your exH continue to control him.

Parental responsibility does not mean imposing your will on your DC regardless of how they feel about it - it means doing what is best for the child. What is best for your DS is allowing him the choice of instrument he wishes to play, rather than subjugating him to the unreasonable controlling demands of his father.

I'm leaving aside the issue of your exh's behaviour (which is entirely unacceptable) and moving to the issue of the music.

There are some instruments (eg drums) which in my view are not the sort of instruments to learn on because they don't deliver a proper musical foundation. So there may be some foundation in what your exh is saying. Is it possible to compromise? So for instance if your DS can't cope with piano, which is jolly difficult (hands apart, hands together, feet, two staves to read etc) and perhaps move to a flute? Is there a middle ground?

Joruth, just as another point and it's a bit of a harsh one - you don't seem to have completely escaped this man's control yourself - you're still thinking you have to bow to his wishes. You don't, especially if they are unreasonable and go against your DC's best interests.

Be strong - you have done the hard bit by throwing him out - now make sure that you do the best for your DC by stopping him from continuing to bully them.

As I have easily given away enough to have outed myself anyway i will reply specifically to Quattro

Children are 10,8,7,5
First 3 started piano at 6/7 and are doing well (I supervise piano practice) even though DC1 may be a little dyspractic

DC1 plays violin (would have liked to play flute/clarinet but was "persuaded") she is quite good. After problems with DH supervising practice she managed it by practising when he wasn't around and occasionally involving him on specific small items and technique, but mostly just telling me what she had to do and doing it.

DS was offered Double bass a year early as there was a space and his Dad is a professional double bass player. I said IMO DS was free to choose any instrument and if he wanted to wait to be given the full list that would be ok with me, and he could still choose the double bass at that point. He wasn't allowed to. Bass practise became a focus for a great deal of emotional and verbal abuse to DS. School aware. DS cannot now even see a his bass without shaking and crying. He independently talked to music teacher about playing the trombone. there is one available and there is lesson space (not true for all instruments).

IMO he is 8, there is time for him to try this instrument and still change his mind. My husband has a senior (university) pupil at present who played the tuba to age 16/grade 8 and is now doing performing degree on the double bass at Oxbridge. This is (apparently) irrelevant information and I don't know what I am talking about.

thumbwitch yes...not completely out from under. Much conditioning to be undone.

Are you having any counselling to help you with that, Joruth?
And there's nothing wrong with the trombone, FFS! poor little soul, being bullied over the double bass - it's a bugger of an instrument for little fingers (I played it at senior school and it was hard work then! those strings are thick)

I can see all sorts of reasons as to why your DS wouldn't want to play it now, don't force him.

the list of unacceptable instruments is very long BTW. I wonder what his colleagues would say in the orchestra if they heard his opinions??

I can't/won't force the bass...his school have taken it back (they have been brilliant).

I just want him to have a positive experience with something. He is so damaged and making a choice and following it through would be so good for DS.

Music is really food for the soul, it has enriched my life hugely but in this house there is only angst and pressure and pain from it

No counselling, offered but I'm financially supporting him and us, and also looking after DCs, no time or space. I hope one day to get to that.

Sorry, Joruth, not quite understanding the problem re school and your DS's choice of instrument. He wants to learn the trombone and ditch the d bass. A trombone is available, problem sorted, no?

only father is telling school no.....we have to give consent

This would also be a question for the solicitor.

Basically, you are the resident parent, the decision here rests with you. Or rather, you are supporting the fact that the decision rests with your DS, as are the school.

There is no action to be taken on the instrument itself - all parties are in agreement that the trombone is what your DS wants and that's fine. This is simply the first of many, many situations where it's necessary for your ex's bullying, abusive influence to be prevented. I'd outline this particular incident with the solicitor and get some advice. However, it strikes me here that there's nothing your ex can actually do, especially if you stop contact right now... EXCEPT bully you all into letting him dictate, yet again.

The school won't follow his wishes.

The bass has been taken away.

Your DS lives with you, he can practice without fear in his own home.

His dad is simply not there either at home or at school to control this.

There is no problem. I would refuse to discuss it with him and make sure the school are aware of the current situation so that they know to ignore any aggressive contact from him.

not discussing yay.....

I can't imagine that the school would need both parents permission for your DS to play the trombone, only one signature is usually required!
As TCU says, you are the resident parent, you can give permission - his is not required.
And do what she says in the last paragraph as well - let the school know the situation and ask them to please deal with you regarding permissions etc. from now on as you are the resident parent.

So school won't agree because his father won't give consent?

I'd have a meeting with Head and music teacher and explain the curent situation and that you are taking legal advice re contact and protecting DC from further bullying and abuse. They may decide to forego his permission if you explain that your ex is using this as a way to continue to control you all and cause DS distress.

Do you have formal residency? Perhaps that might help.

If not, simply tell your DS that for the moment, a break will be taken from music lessons, and ask the solicitor specifically how you can include this in a court order - that your ex's unreasonable use of permissions to bully and abuse your DC be looked at and a way be found to circumvent this.