HOW DO YOU KNOW IT IS TIME TO LEAVE???

[DHknowsMyOtherHandle]

O.k. I'm a mn poster, but as dh knows my usual handle I thought it safer to assume an alias...

I will probably not make much sense but maybe somebody can either knock some (sense) into me or give some advice...

Background: DH and I knew each other when I got pg with dd (now 4) and got married. Had planned to get married and have kids anyhow just not that 'early' into the relationship so no major prob.
I got pnd with dd and got medicated. Everything still o.k. with some little scuffles - usually me getting annoyed because dh doesn't pull finger.
Got pg with ds who is now 16 months. got pnd as well and was medicated. Came off medication 4 months ago and since then things have gotten gradually worse. Don't know whether it's because I'm off the AD's and less tolerant or because DH is getting worse.
He's not a talker, if something upsets him you've got this big ogre spotting a storm cloud iykwim. Had a few bigger chats over the last couple of months, making lists of 'issues' and setting some 'ground rules', i.e. putting anything planned etc. on the wall calendar (he never looks at) just to pick a trivial example.

Won't list all the gripse I have, just a synopsis:

• I'm always the one to 'break the ice'
• I always end up feeling like it's my fault
• I'm the one who organises everything and gets things done because he has no time (except for looking into things that interest him, not things that need doing) being so busy at work. Well helloooooo... I take care of the kids, dishes, washing and quick tidy up so nanny doesn't find a bombsite when she arrives before I go to work, then come home and take care of household, dinner and kids! [can you guess that's one of my major gripse?]

Basically atm I feel like I'm a single mum with fringe benefit as dh does get up for kids at night and sort of takes care of them over the weekend. I know it's nothing like really being a single mum as a friend of mine is, but I'd love some support not the feeling that 'Family & Home' is my responsibility, especially as I'm working too.

After this long lament... back to my question in the heading. How and when does one decide that enough is enough? I know it's an individual thing, but I really would appreciate some pointers as I'm sort of too exhausted to think.

Have to add that should I take the big step and leave, not that I want to... I have no support network here in the UK as both our families are abroad. Have 2 good friends to rely on but one is going back home soon (abroad) and the other one is the single mum I mentioned, who's good for moral support, but obviously is stretched enough herself. Not to mention the financial side of things!

HELP

Why do you do all the household stuff?

I'm constantly puzzled by this.

My time to leave was when I felt I'd tried everything and I'd run out of options. And also, when I no longer wanted to make it work, I just wanted out. Even if he'd said "I'll change" my attitude would have been "Congratulations, your change will enhance and improve your life and enable you to move on and perhaps be happy for the rest of your life, but with someone else, not me."

Do you just want out, or can you imagine continuing to live with him if he changed his ways?

Why do I do all the household stuff... well otherwise we'd be living in a tip. Give him his due... every 3-4 months he gets a cleaning frenzy and blitzes e.g. the kitchen... instead of doing something every day. Oh and pet hate... leaving rubbish on work top with bin being literally 1ft away!

If he changes his ways I'd be happy to stay with him. Though somehow I can't see it. It's like talking to a wall with the odd unsubstantiated 'I disagree' coming back.

He insists he hasn't changed since we got together 7 years ago... yeah right. O.k. sleep deprivation and lack of social life due to 2 little ones don't help, but they're part of life!

My advice, for what it's worth, is to stick at it. The probs you describe don't sound insurmounatble they sound like what happens to a busy working couple with two young children who have perhaps lost sight of why they are together.
Have you thought of
a) hiring a cleaner
b) booking a regular babysitter
c) going on holiday just the two of you?
d) relate?

beejay

cleaner/babysitter... costs money which is tight anyhow (probably one of dh's problems as he used to earn heaps as a contractor and now isn't... still on a good salary though)

holiday just the 2 of us... who looks after the kids?

Relate - did mention it to dh but got blanked...

I know our problems aren't insurmountable and there probably lots of couples out there who go through the same. However, I just can't see dh pulling finger... ffs he said he'd do his drivers licence when I was pg with dd!!! still hasn't got it.

Does he realise how unhappy you are? If you told him it was relate or divorce what do you think he would say?

Could you go on holiday in the same country as your families but alone ( ie leave the kids with your parents and then shoot off elsewhere just you and dh?)

Do you know any other parents you could swap babysitting favours with?

Also do you get enough time off for yourself, to go swimming or do a class or whatever? Could you negotiate that with you husband? Would that relieve the tedium and pressure somewhat?

( Don't mean to be pesky with my questions, just thinking aloud... one of my friends is in similar situation and this is what am suggesting to her...)

Well in one of our last few chats I did tell him how miserable I was. But things get better for maybe a week and that's it. 1/2 the time it feels like he doesn't want to be with us and that we are a burdon and he feels trapped. But he won't get off his arse and do something. He used to be active and interested in things... imperative word being used to

well dh's family are in a far away country and my family (parents divorced) are in Europe (no further details just in case...)

Time off for myself? What's that? My time for myself is at work! Saying that today during lunch time I got myself a haircut! DH is probably not going to talk to me because I've taken it short.

DH has an issue with him not having any friends, social life, hobbies etc. but when I suggest stuff, like... you've got to put some efford into meeting up with your friends I get 'too much hassle'... how do you fight that!?

As for swapping babysitter favours... in emergencies my friend would help out, but as I said she's on her own with her ds. Don't really know the parents at nursery as I only drop dd off quickly before sporting to work. And now I might sound 'uppity' but the SAHM's at nursery are in their own little clique and the couple of working mums don't seem to be acknowledged....

It seems to me that if you pick any couple no matter how much they love each other, add the stress and tedium of kids, housework and, make no time for each other as a couple or as individuals, things go awry...which is really sad, both for the couple concerned and their children.

I think I slightly fell into that trap with my ex, though we were never married.

Looking back on it I wish i had made more of an effort to keep our relationship going and not got so totally absorbed in the whole parenting thing.

And when our dd was young I really thought that I would feel that exhausted/stressed for ever.

Once the first few hard years are over you do really get your life back. My dd is 6 now and things are so different. Unfortunately the relationship fell by the wayside and in many ways for the best as am now with someone else... but am determined not to make the same mistake again.

(Sorry turned into a rather long 'two-pence worth'... really hope you can work this out. I know it's tough and it does sound like you are doing a lot more of the work that you dh..)

I appreciate your '2p worth'

And you actually nailed one thing...
'Looking back on it I wish i had made more of an effort to keep our relationship going ...'

Why is it usually 'us women' who 'have to make the effort'?

Hi - I think you really do need to sit down and talk things through - no matter how hard it may be. You owe it to yourself and rest of family. When my first marriage split up (no kids involved thankfully) I would happily of buried my head in the sand - it was my husband (at the time)who made the move and left. As gutted as I was at the time - he did me a huge facour, I would never have had the guts to leave, would have just kept trying to make it work.
If you don't talk things through, things will reach boiling point, you will have a massive row and one of you (probably you judging by what you've said) will walk out. It's better to try and sort things out between you first. COuld you try getting an independent third person to "mediate" for you? Does he realise that thigns are this bad - i.e. that if you don't get it sorted you are thinking of leaving?
If the bad times outweigh the good - you need to address the balance in some way (sort things out or leave). Also, ask yourself if you are settling for second best. If you are, just to be in a relationship - then this is probably not the relationship to be in. You deserve more.
HTH
Good Luck

God if I only knew the answer to that... maybe I just pick weak men -- I always seem to be the grown-up in any relationship!

Brownie... that's what's so frustrating... we had a BIG chat just before Christmas! And now we're back to square one
As for mediation... he can't talk to me let alone with or infront of somebody else...
don't know whether I'm settling for second best. He's the father of my children and he can help raise his brood.

Beejay... nothing to do with picking weak men... dh is bl*y pig-headed. I think it's just instilled in women that we have to be the pliable ones...

ps beejay... men are eternal children... boys never grow up just their toys get more expensive

I guess the answer to that is if you no longer love that person.

BUT, when you got married you did promise you would stay together for better and for worse. So I always think that if you have marriage problems, instead of thinking about throwing the towel in, you really should invest in a bit of therapy for you both. After all, marriage is the biggest investment of your life, you don't want it to fall at the first hurdle do you?

Going on strike is another way of making them sit up and take notice. But be careful, the more assertive and aggressive you are, the more defensive they become. Try a little tenderness as Elvis said!

upps forgot to change my handle...

Rhubarb. I'm not that easily throwing in the towel as it is for better and for worse as you said. However DH is the aggressive type (not physical) and once I asked him what he would do if I behaved the way he does... his reply: He'd up and leave

Agree he should help raise the brood but this doesn't mean that you have to stay in the relationship if it is suffocating you.
If you are settling for second best (children aside) then you need to seriously consider your options. I'd tell him that you are close to leaving and see what he says. Could youperhaps try a trial seperation?

Men don't respond well to threats though, they think it's all bad wind. You have to carry out your threats, just like you do with children!
Can you not decamp at a friend's for the weekend? Leave the kids with him. Tell him that you need space to decide if you want to continue with the relationship. That should scare the skid marks off his grots!

Thanks Rhubarb you made me laugh.
I actually offered him some time away to clear his head and to decide on what he actually wants. But he won't do it as he doesn't do well with time off and if he'd go somewhere on his own he wouldn't know what to do with himself... when I told him well he'd be going away to reflect on things... that's something to do... that didn't go down well...

Problem with trial separations though is... where would he go? He won't even talk to the one friend that is still sort of closeby about his stress/problems etc. Too much hassle meeting up. Which made me laugh considering they work together!!!

Hon, that his problem not yours! YOU go to your friends and have a brilliant weekend whilst he stays at home with the kids, worrying about your decision!

But then my next hurdle would be... if I leave... do I stay here (UK) or 'crawl home to Mama' and her ever critical approach. She'd love that!

Nooo, you don't actually leave. He'll be so mortified that you've gone away for the weekend allegedly considering your relationship, that he'll fall down at your feet when you arrive home!

and then we'll see how long that'll last...

well either that or he's too proud and wanders off himself

have you considered relate? or some form of counselling? This could be useful in bringing home to your husband that you are serious and things need to change and other people can see clearly from an objective viewpoint - and help prioritise with you.

You have had so much to deal with in the last few years and with PND as well I'm not surprised things have come to this. Beejay is right i'm sure though that with effort things can be changed - and as she says it won't always be that parenting takes up so much time and attention - things change all the time.

I'm very bad at taking own advice but think a regular evening out together might work wonders. need to organise this myself.....

It seems to be that maybe your dh is looking for a 'hassle free' life, and it just isn't!!

If only men could really talk and really listen.

dexter have mentioned relate to DH but that got blanked... as for making an effort... I'm getting sick and tired that I'm the one who has to make the effort iykwim.

Someone said I should try going on strike... ah well that I'm afraid would only make things worse, because if I don't get going, dh would just sit round the house moping even more, poisioning the atmosphere even further, as it's a waste of time not to do anything... I don't quite follow his logic either at times. It's a waste e.g. to get some extra shut-eye on Saturday because we should be doing things, but we don't always have things to do... but if I dare go back for a couple of hours, which I do sometimes, that's the mood set for the day.

Just to explain a bit how 'lazy' he has gotten:

• already mentioned the too much hassle catching up with friends
• has constant headaches but won't go see doctor to do anything about it
• feeling low because he's overweight, but keeps buying cookies
• complaining he has no social life, but not doing anything about it