Possible mumsnet campaign on domestic abuse??

[NettleTea]

The report out today regarding the possible changes in the law regarding domestic violence has spawned a great deal of debate, both in the media and on several forums/closed FB groups.
There are a couple of links [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8948620/Bullies-face-prosecution-in-domestic-violence-crackdown.html here] and [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16175167 here] which give the background.
Some of you may be aware that one of our regular posters spoke on radio 5 live this morning - you can hear her [http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017wygq here] at about 1 hour 24 mins under the pseudonym of 'Susie' as she tells her story, and how Mumsnet was a lifeline for her. Earlier today I wrote to Mumsnet Towers to see whether we might rally their support in campaigning for this issue, especially given Mumsnet's role in helping women to identify that they are in abusive relationships, to support them if they decide to leave and to offer advice and further support as they go through that difficult process. One of the most devastating aspects of being in an abusive relationship which isnt violent is the gradual erosion of the woman's (or men's, I acknowledge that its not gender specific) self esteem and trust in her own judgement, and the shifting sands of what constitutes normality, and that is often where MN comes in, helping to identify a relationship which is abusive when nobody is getting physically hurt. The comments on the Telegraph thread above, (although not as frustrating as those in the daily mail) clearly show how misunderstood emotional abuse is, and I feel that MN and particularly MN members who are living it, and have been through it, really have voices that should be heard.
MN Towers suggested I start a thread here to see the amount of support out there for their contribution to the ongoing discussions, and whether we feel that this is a campaign that they should get behind, and in what form it would best take place, so thoughts please....

[malinkey]

Do you believe that's how the media portray it?

[catherinea1971]

Youllbewaiting, that wasn't how I read the last 2 posts at all....

[Youllbewaiting]

Yes I do. I think the media portray it as a male on female crime.
Which I think it mainly is.

[malinkey]

Oh I see, I think I misread your message.

I think it is mainly a male on female crime - at least in that there are approximately 5 times more women being killed by men than the other way round. And if makeyer's comments about some of the men being killed by women actually being abusive themselves, then that confuses these figures too.

But whenever something about domestic abuse is brought up in the press (see the comments on the 2 articles that Nettle linked to at the beginning of the thread for examples) - there is always loads about "but what about the men?"

[MakesXmasCakesWhenStressed]

Youllbewaiting - no, how I read it was that male DV isn't as widespread.

I also read that male perpetrators use it as an excuse to mislead people as to their own behaviour. I think that should be kept separate from actual male DV victims.

[BertieBotts]

Very well said, makeyerown.

And agree with MakesCakes that M-F violence is more widespread than F-M violence. Doesn't mean one is worse than the other.

The issue of male abusers portraying that their female partners are abusing them is difficult, because is clouds the issue of real F-M violence, but it also does happen and is fairly common as far as I understand it.

[OberonTheHopeful]

when decent support systems are set up and abuse is understood by professionals, that support for men suffering DA will naturally also be more easily accessed

I can see what you are saying, but I don't think it's true. It certainly doesn't accord with my own experience of public bodies and professionals who acknowledge and seem to understand female on male abuse but refuse outright to do anything about it.

Where I live there are a number of publicly-funded initiatives for women (support groups, one-to-one support, counselling, courses etc.) in addition to those provided by charities. There are none for men, across the entire county. I get to see the local authority support worker for an hour once every few weeks. She's absolutely brilliant and does her very best to support me, but I only get that because I made a formal complaint to the LA.

I was quite recently invited to take part in a consultation exercise for the county council to assist its planing of DV services for the next few years. The person I spoke to listened carefully and was understanding, but made it clear that they have no intention of providing any services for men. This is a public body spending public money. Whatever the statistics say a victim is primarily an individual, a human being with needs.

I called the police once, after my XP had gouged me with a corkscrew (probably serves me right for buying a "posh" teflon-coated one). They refused to attend. I'm lucky though, after over thirteen years I borrowed money from a relative and managed to get out. I did it on my own because I didn't know of any help. My XP always said that nobody would believe me, and all of the awareness material I'd seen just reinforced that.

The "official" support line for male victims (The Mens Advice Line) is only available for six hours a day, on working days only (and closed at lunchtime), and to be honest isn't very good. The Mankind Initiative helpline is excellent, and though only available on working days is at least open for a couple of hours in the evenings. My experience is that those oh-so empty evenings and weekends are when emotional support is most needed. It's curious that despite it being mentioned on here a great deal, MN don't list The Mankind Initiative in their DV Web guide.

I still live quite an empty life in many ways, I'm often lonely and I don't have the confidence to move forward except very slowly. A small upset can have a very big impact on me and tends very much to set me back. I try hard to stay positive but have little confidence and tend to be very hard on myself. A (now very ex) "friend" recently told me that I have set myself back. There is no doubt in my mind that she would not have said this to a woman.

I was trying to describe to the same person a while ago a recent situation in which I'd been thinking of buying something for myself (all quite trivial in itself) and about how it took me hours to realise that I could just do it, I didn't need anyone's "permission". I was trying to convey the idea, which I'm sure some people here will recognise, that the freedom that many take for granted can be a real novelty to some of us. She just said "Oh, bless you" like she was talking to a child. I'm fairly sure her response to a woman describing the same thing would have been very different. Of course, this is just one person.

I do what I can, I've managed to arrange counselling for myself and it's helping a lot (the counsellor is a DV specialist who used to be the local PCT lead). I'm in a much better place than last year emotionally. Nevertheless, there are still times when I wonder if I wouldn't have been better staying. I can now live without fear, uncertainty and the constant emotional roller coaster. I can do what I want when I want, but it's so empty sometimes. What I wouldn't give to be able to talk face to face with people who understand because they've been there don't mind hearing about it.

I came to MN almost a year ago because I simply couldn't find anything else. I've found incredible support and excellent advice here. It's been a lifesaver, metaphorically and possibly literally. I would wholeheartedly support a campaign. I'd of course be disappointed if it didn't encompass male as well as female victims, but anything helps. I would truly hate for anyone at all to have to live in the way that I did.

The paucity of services and awareness for and of male victims is very difficult subject to raise without being accused to trying to detract from female victims, for whom there is also of course a lamentably poor service provision. Even mentioning it can result in pejorative comments.

I've always tried to be sensitive to the nature of the site, knowing that the majority of posters are women, and many with stories way more shocking than mine. I would though ask people to bear in mind that awareness and publicity that shows only female victims and male abusers really can stop male victims from coming forward. It did with me, it just reinforced what my then partner said that nobody would believe me. Referring to "abusive men" or "these men", rather than abusive people, and referring to victims only as women, however understandable and well-intentioned, can make men like me think it best to just keep absolutely silent and try as hard as possible to fade into the background. It really can.

[malinkey]

Oberon - I'm really sorry to hear about your experience. Surely it wouldn't have been better to have stayed?

When you explain it so eloquently it does make sense to include male victims in the campaign.

[littleredmouse]

grr my message didn't post for some reason. Abuse is about control and anger. Nothing to do with relative sizes of bodies , and plenty of women earn more than men do! I have know 3 men who have been abused. In all cases as things got worse the emotional abuse turned into physical. Same sorts of things women experience, constant put downs, nothing was right, they were useless good for nothings, if they tried to stop an argument by walking way they were cornered, two said being cornered made them feel like a caged beast, the anger they felt at not being able to leave and calm down, to escape the torrent of abuse. In all cases the women made it clear they thought their partner was useless and they could do better but when the men tried to leave things got far, far worse. Sweetness , attempts to make amends, big presents etc all mixed in with nastiness until their heads were spinning as the cycle went round and round. One left this week, final straw after years of emotional abuse and her chucking the odd thing at him/ smashing his property was her headbutting him 2 days after she punched him. No he wasn't seriously hurt but he refused to report to police and he knows deep down that things will escalate, next it will be a knife in his back . So he is now in a bedsit. He has no chance of getting a good job due to the effects of the abuse on his health and his age. He will see his pension before his gets any money from the sale of their family home as he had children late in life. She has threatened to stop all contact with his kids and said she will move if he does ever get a court order. The worst thing for him is he can no longer protect his kids- a very big reason why men stay is to be there to help mitigate any abuse the mother doles out. This is the main reason he stayed for so long (same reason all 3 did). Of course before that they justified it, she didn't mean it, she had a difficult childhood , she just gets angry from time to time, its her hormones etc etc
Abuse is abuse. Pitching men and women against each other is damaging and unhelpful. Some people on MN seem to deny the capacity of women to be cruel or evil. Women can and do abuse their children, they can and do abuse their partners, and what about abuse of vulnerable people? Better to all stick together and raise awareness of how abuse operates and ensure resources are improved for men and women.

[littleredmouse]

OberonTheHopeful thanks for your post, very insightful. I am sorry to hear of what you've been through and I agree that the way forward is to talk about abusers or abusive people rather than abusive men. I think the tide is changing slightly in awareness, let's hope so anyway, but i echo what you said about funding, it isn't there and due to political reasons it won't be anywhere in the near future either.

[gettingagrip]

Haven't read whole thread, sorry.

Definite requirement for knowledge of Cycles of Abuse, what constitutes abuse, etc. to be taught in schools. Even from quite a young age. When I look at photos of myself as a very small child I can see the misery in my little girl's face.

I had no clue that what I was living through was classic abuse throughout my childhood and up until I was 50!

Availability of someone to talk to about it in schools. Ensuring that all children know that they have a right to be a person IN their own right, and explanations of how some parents can view their children as extensions of themselves with no right to exist as a separate person, with their own views and feelings.

I would actually be up for writing a curriculum for this, and teaching this if I was given a chance.

Explanations of grooming behaviours etc and how to stand up to abusers are important too.

Of course men can be the victims too, I would have thought that was a given.

Educating the next generation would stop so much misery, and save so many from life-long depression and other mental health problems, and, as abuse so often makes abusers, would hopefully stop that cycle too.

[Sparks1]

Why the fuck do some people insist on making this a gender issue?!

Abuse is abuse. Get a fucking grip of yourselves and understand that by talking such bilge you undermine and polarise the situation.

I don't give a flying what gender the victim is, it's wrong.

[cantfindamnnickname]

I would support a campaign to raise awareness - Im a family Solicitor and do a lot of injunction work.
It shocks me to see the treatment from Social workers, police etc.

I saw a lady the other day who had previously reported violence several times. She then receives a phonecall from him threatening all sorts of nice things so she tells him to fuck off - the police give them both a notice of harassment order FFS

I have spoken to a local lady who runs a charity and the police told her that injunctions are expensive and really difficult to get - complete rubbish if you are on low income you get legal aid.

I have another case where the Judge has told lady to stop being a drama queen when he kicked off in Court after years of abuse.

Im not sure what the answer is - a joined up approach for a start.

[ElfenorRathbone]

"Why the fuck do some people insist on making this a gender issue?! "

Because it is.

Any issue which disproportionately affects one gender, is a gender issue. It doesn't imply that the other gender is not affected by it, simply that the effects are mainly felt by one gender.

Men get breast cancer. Just not at the same rate as women. And no-one gets annoyed about the walks with bras etc., wihich focus on women getting breast cancer. It doesn't mean they don't care about the men who get it, it just means they're directing the focus of their campaigns, on the majority.

[Sparks1]

Rubbish. What a ridiculous viewpoint.

And it's quite often the case that the minority need protecting even more than the majority.

There's no need to make this gender specific so why do so?

I repeat again, abuse is abuse. Anyone who try's introducing gender into the issue quite obviously has other agendas.

[makeyerowndamndinner]

I think we are all here on this thread because we agree with the basic premise - that it would be great for Mumsnet to get behind the campaign to criminalise emotional abuse. We all agree on that no? This is a good thing.

I have no desire to turn this thread into a negative gripe-fest but Littleredmouse I feel I must take issue with some of the assertions in your main post. Firstly, abuse is certainly about control, you're right, but it is not about anger. It is a popular and dangerous misconception that abusers are angry and therefore out of control. People who are genuinely in an angry rage do not for example deliberately hit their partners in places where the bruises won't show. They do not only deliver their worst verbal assaults when there is no-one else around. They are not careful to act like the perfect partner in public. Abusers often make sure to do all of these things, because they are very much in control - that is the point. Their actions are deliberate and often planned well in advance. They are not the result of uncontrollable spontaneous anger.

Abuse is about domination and control. You cannot factor out one of the most basic gender differences - the fact that men tend to be bigger and stronger than women - out of this equation. Physical and sexual domination can be achieved over most women by most men. The same cannot be said the other way around. You try telling all the women who have been physically forced to have sex with their partners that abuse has nothing to do with the relative sizes of bodies!

It is true that some women now earn more than some men. But the exceptions to the rule do not disprove the still salient fact that the majority of women earn less than men (even if they do the same job) and that there are vastly more women financially dependent on men than the other way around. Financial dependence and control are huge factors in domestic abuse.

I am not seeking to pitch men and women against each other. That's the last thing I want. And I resent your implication that my view that domestic abuse is a gender specific issue (which by the way is a view shared by the UN and the World Health Organisation) means that I am a part of some sort of mumsnet conspiracy to portray all women as good and incapable of evil or cruelty. Of course I don't think that.

But the exceptions do not disprove the rule. Yes there are female abusers. Yes there are male victims wholly deserving of support and resources. But the vast vast majority of physical and sexual violence all over the world is committed against women by men. That is an absolute and undeniable truth. And (Sparks) the people who seek to take the focus away from that absolute and undeniable truth are the ones with the real hidden agendas.

[Sparks1]

Make

You just proved my point.

For the third time, abuse is abuse.

Any legislation will apply to all genders so procrastinating otherwise just dilutes the urgency of lobbying.

[makeyerowndamndinner]

(Sigh) I didn't say that women could not sexually abuse men. They can and sometimes do. They also sometimes sexually abuse each other. They also sometimes sexually abuse children. But they cannot physically force a man struggling with all his strength to have sex in the way that men can do to women. My point was that the relative size of bodies absolutely was a factor in domestic abuse, and I think I proved my point.

Neither did I ever suggest that you were not entitled to your opinion. You are. But I disagree passionately and felt driven to explain why, that's all.

[Sparks1]

But the whole point of these proposed legislative proposals are to broaden the law on emotional and psychological abuse. So nothing to do with physical strength.

For the fourth time, abuse is abuse....

[makeyerowndamndinner]

I was speaking about domestic abuse in general though Sparks. Emotional and psychological abuse are often (although by no means always) accompanied by other types of abuse.

No need to repeat yourself

[ElfenorRathbone]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

But opinion which is based solely on personal experience and gut reaction, is not as reliable as that based also on researched facts.

We know the figures.

Taht's not to say that personal experiecne has no place in debates - of course it does - but saying something four times, doesn't make it more true than if you just say it once. If it's wrong, it's wrong, however many times you say it.

[fumblebuck]

I was in EA marriage... here's comment from Cafcass: "[there is] one DV referral... which raised allegations of STBXH being very controlling towards Mrs STBXH and allegedly admitting that he has followed her, tracked her ... STBXH is aware that Mrs STBXH feels very sensitive about his behaviour ... In respect of Mrs STBXH's sensitivites to STBXH's behaviour towards her, the court may wish to consider a preamble to an order in respect of the parties' future communication style and manner with each other"

I was rated on CAADA-DASH as a 15, which is high risk of harm. To be downplayed as a "sensitivity" is quite frankly upsetting.

[fumblebuck]

So YES to campaign, YES to raise awareness (I wasn't aware of what was going on for 14 years) and YES to supporting women and men in these horrid, toxic relationships.