Possible mumsnet campaign on domestic abuse??

[NettleTea]

The report out today regarding the possible changes in the law regarding domestic violence has spawned a great deal of debate, both in the media and on several forums/closed FB groups.
There are a couple of links [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8948620/Bullies-face-prosecution-in-domestic-violence-crackdown.html here] and [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16175167 here] which give the background.
Some of you may be aware that one of our regular posters spoke on radio 5 live this morning - you can hear her [http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017wygq here] at about 1 hour 24 mins under the pseudonym of 'Susie' as she tells her story, and how Mumsnet was a lifeline for her. Earlier today I wrote to Mumsnet Towers to see whether we might rally their support in campaigning for this issue, especially given Mumsnet's role in helping women to identify that they are in abusive relationships, to support them if they decide to leave and to offer advice and further support as they go through that difficult process. One of the most devastating aspects of being in an abusive relationship which isnt violent is the gradual erosion of the woman's (or men's, I acknowledge that its not gender specific) self esteem and trust in her own judgement, and the shifting sands of what constitutes normality, and that is often where MN comes in, helping to identify a relationship which is abusive when nobody is getting physically hurt. The comments on the Telegraph thread above, (although not as frustrating as those in the daily mail) clearly show how misunderstood emotional abuse is, and I feel that MN and particularly MN members who are living it, and have been through it, really have voices that should be heard.
MN Towers suggested I start a thread here to see the amount of support out there for their contribution to the ongoing discussions, and whether we feel that this is a campaign that they should get behind, and in what form it would best take place, so thoughts please....

[queenrollo]

I would support a campaign.
I supported my friend through several years of an abusive relationship until she finally left him.
My DH was the victim in an abusive marriage. He's exactly the sort of person who knows how to find and access support, but was too ashamed to admit what he was going through. He said that finding male oriented support in itself was very difficult, and so the impetus to get help is compounded.

DA against women is a taboo, though more openly recognised than DA against men. I'd support any campaign that brought this issue into the open and made support networks easier to access.

[NettleTea]

in regards to the annonnymity(sp?) on here - I am aware of a couple of threads where the abuse has been exposed and ongoing, and advice has been given, and the poster's RL support network have stated that print offs of the thread can be used as supporting evidence.

[DontCallMeFrothyDragon]

MakesXmasCakes, yes, that's an important part of it. The abusers spend so long convincing their victims that they won't be believed, that the victim, a lot of the time, begins to believe that no one will believe them.

I think the term domestic abuse needs to be used more in descriibing abusive relationships. Everytime the term domestic violence is used, it undermines and diminishes the emotional, psychological and sexual abuse that takes place in these relationships. I also think we need to see more streamlining in the way police forces treat abuse cases. Even in my own experience, within the same police force, and on the same incident, I went from a police officer who was determined to help me, to another one who phoned me up the next morning, telling me xP was extremely remorseful, it was all a drunken mistake, and did I really still want to press charges? (The incident in question, xP had assaulted me, whilst 7 months pregnant, then went to punch me in the stomach. The officer had this on file, but seemed to go easy on xP because he confessed to it all. He didn't contest anything I said. As soon as he got home, he told me he could have had me arrested just as easily, as I'd slapped him after blocking the blow to my stomach. Less than a year later, I was in a refuge, having pressed charges against him for another assault, where he'd headbutted me whilst I was holding DS (10 months old at the time) My parents brought me back to my hometown for a week, and spent half of the six hour drive telling me that had I not breastfed, co-slept, or had I been a better housewife, he probably wouldn't have hit me. And I was over-reacting. After a row with DB when I was staying with him that week, DB told me he wasn't suprised xP hit me; I probably deserved it. Even after xP was given 150 hours community service and a years suspended sentence (this was after EVERYTHING the police had on the case was dragged up in court; DMiL found out about the previous incident, which I denied to DMother after the victim blaming that went on) I was made to feel I was to blame, I over-reacted and my ever so loving parents convinced me I should work things out with him. I left him seven months to the day after I'd left him the first time. This time, DM told me that I should have stayed longer and planned leaving more carefully, so I could have taken DS's cot and highchair, seeing as she'd paid a lot of money for them... This came after I left xP for assaulting DS.

I'm unsure whether this is a typical experience of SS, but after I returned to xP,I had a visit from a SW, who, under no uncertain terms, told me I was unreasonable for returning to xP, and if they had another phonecall, DS would be put on the at-risk register. She was so confrontational, that I don't feel I would have been able to confide to her or turn to her if need be. Luckily, her colleague was the one who returned for a further check, and after that, UNLUCKILY, we dropped off the radar. Had she been about, she may have noticed the signs of psychological and financial abuse (One incident included xP taking my bank card to community service with him, leaving me unable to buy anything for DS's lunch that day - had it not been for his nan, I'm not sure what I'd have done). I'd rather see a streamlining of SS's treatment of DV cases. Perhaps a SW visit should become mandatory after each contact with police (bear in mind that it typically takes 35 assaults before a victim seeks help), but with training so that the victims are treated with sensitivity. It could have made a big difference to me, and may have provided me with the support to leave xP before I did. BUT it'd have to be handled VERY sensitively indeed, to avoid putting victims off seeking help.

I'd also like to see Domestic Abuse tackled in schools. So far, two of my nieces have been victims of dating violence; the youngest is 14, and nearly had her throat slashed by her exBF. It wasn' until she seeked clarification on how he treated her that she realised it was abuse. Unfortunately, I'm not too close to DB, so broached the supject with Misogynistic Mummy (c), who very kindly informed me that she takes everything this niece says with a pinch of salt, as she's got a very vivid imagination... ... Harking back to the "I Believe You" thing, there.

The law should be changed to recognise ALL forms of abuse, and agree with the education of HCP's. My ex, very kindly managed to convince our doctor and HV that I was suffering from PND; I may have had depression - I suffer from depression, anxiety and PTSD atm, but he was also gaslighting me, refusing to help with DS, convinced me that my family wanted nothing to do with me, and telling me I was a shit mother at every available opportunity. No one ever asked how he was with his DS, what he did, how often he interacted... Even little things like that would have been a give away that something was up. He was spending the CTC, the WTC, and making it impossible for me to work, giving me tuppence (or near enough) to provide for DS. Another ex was the one who gave me the guts to leave, eventually, by reminding me that there were men out there who would treat me how I deserved to be treated. He also spent six months, after I returned to xP, reminding me how much I was worth, and reminding me that the xP hiding my keys WAS a red flag, I wasn't crazy. I had all those people about who should have been able to help, see what was going on, but it took an ex, 200 miles away to point out what was going on and let me know I was believed, and it was OK to leave xP.

Sorry, that's longer and ramblier than I thought it would be; DBF is now wondering what I've spent the past half hour typing...

But yeah, for those who don't want to read all that, to summarise, what I'd like to see is:

1. "I Believe You" being applied to domestic abuse survivors, in the same way we apply it to rape survivors
   
   
2. The change of the use of the term Domestic Violence to Domestic Abuse, to make it easier for people to understand Domestic Abuse is not always about physical violence
   
   
3. A streamlining in how police forces deal with Domestic Abuse cases. Even after a confession, a victim should not be told the perpetrator is "remorseful", nor should the police ask if the victim really wants to press charges.
   
   
4. Training for HCPs to recognise abuse where it's occuring. This should include regular checks from HV's etc that there is no emotional/financial/psychological abuse occuring, through carefully worded, open questions...
   
   
5. Coverage of Domestic and Dating Abuse withing schools as part of the national curriculum.
   
   
6. The presence of a SW in all Domestic Abuse cases. However, it should be made clear that the SW is there to support the victim, not to blame the victim for staying/returning/not trying to get help sooner. It should be made clear that the SW is there for support, not to condemn the victim for staying. Child Protection issues should be dealt with sensitively, with all avenues discussed, including how to leave an abusive relationship with the support of SS.

[DontCallMeFrothyDragon]

Ooh, and
7) Better funding for Domestic Abuse resources (eg Women's Aid helpline, refuges) It took me several attempts to reach Women's Aid on the day I left xP. Their resources are stretched, and it's so frustrating to know that some women are really stuck in trying to reach such a vital resource. As for the refuges; to say they're underfunded would be the understatement of the century.

[catherinea1971]

Using Mumsnet has without doubt helped many leave their abusers and it is an amazing tool for women to seek and find help...sadly though I have been involved in a couple of threads and read on others where the abuser and sometimes their family have stalked the victim on here.
Women like 'Suzie' talking on the radio will have without doubt given some women the strength to maybe look for support on here, the downside though is that their abusers could also follow.
A while ago whilst I was involved in a thread where the abusers family were stalking/posting on the victims thread I emailed MNHQ and requested that they look into a members only forum that was not discoverable by search engines, MNHQ responded that they were looking into doing something along those lines. The sooner the better MNHQ please, the lady who's thread prompted me to ask for such a facility felt unable to continue receiving support from Mumsnet due to the fear that her abuser/his family would find her again.

[NettleTea]

I remember that thread Catherinea - I hope the off site support was helpful for her. That thread clearly demonstrated domestic abuse, a woman who was a virtual prisoner in her own home.

I think one of the telling signs of abuse is what happens when the relationship breaks down, and the inproportionate response by the abuser to regain control. Most 'normal' breakdowns are sad, one partner may offer to get councilling/try again, there may be elements of anger and resentment but nothing like the lengths that are gone to to regain control and get their victim back into line. I would imagine that there are some pretty hefty tell tell signs of this behaviour and it would be very helpful if HCPs and other related orgs would recognise and understand these control mechanisms and support the partner who has left by not forcing mediation/ contact with children. These also seem to be the flashpoints where homicide takes place with previously seemingly 'charming' non violent partner

[BertieBotts]

I like the social worker idea, Frothy, but definitely stress the need for sensitivity and focus on helping the child and nonabusive parent to stay together, rather than removing the child if the nonabusive parent does not remove them. In fact I'd say you'd need a switch first to social workers taking the whole picture into account, families being assigned one social worker rather than having different SWs for the child(ren), one of the parents, etc. Of course children shouldn't be staying in abusive situations, but the best outcome has to be if they can stay with the nonabusive parent, either by that parent leaving or the abusive parent being forced to leave.

Until SS are seen as a supportive rather than a frightening prospect, I think it's a bad idea to introduce mandatory SW introduction - many women already believe this is the case, either because their partner has told them if they tell anyone they will lose the children, or just because of a general association - if I tell HV/GP/Police, they will tell SS. Remember as well that a common theme in emotional abuse is to tell the mother that she is a bad parent, playing on the guilt that we all have of not being "perfect" and throwing it wide open so as to encourage a fear of seeking outside help. We need to encourage victims to come forth and speak to authorities, not make it more intimidating for them.

[malinkey]

I agree that education is vital - brilliant if it is happening in schools, and should be if it isn't already, but it also needs to be a wider thing as so many women (and men) are not aware of the signs. Specially with things like gaslighting which are so hard to understand when you're experiencing it.

I remember seeing a poster about domestic violence in the maternity ward when I had DS and having a conversation with exH about it and how sad it was that it so often happened in pregnancy/after having a child. But nowhere on the poster did it explain that this was anything other than violence. I had no idea that I was actually in an abusive relationship myself and it took me finding MN some time later for me to realise that, so certainly a poster/TV campaign listing some of the red flags would be helpful.

I agree with a change in the law to include a charge of domestic violence/abuse. I worry though how hard this would be to prove other than in cases of actual violence - so perhaps it would be good to have a campaign for all police to learn more about the signs of emotional abuse. Perhaps a freedom programme type thing for them to have to go through when training? And a more comprehensive system for them to deal with it when they come across it.

[singingprincess]

I was threatened with social services by h. My nurse prac told me to tell him to go right ahead..because she did know. But I was terrified, completely panicked at the thought of losing my kids, and locked away in some kind of loony bin.

We lose all perspective when we are constantly told that we are terrible mother's, we are mental etc etc. HCP's need, as in my case, to try and turn that perspective back around. Firmly and gently.

Now, I would turn round to him and say..."go on then", but I am in a VERY different place, and it has taken a long time to get here.

It's the perspective on it that is what is SO helpful about MN. It's a TOTALLY different version of normal, to being in an abusive relationship, and that's what helps so very much. So many women say that they didn't even realise...I didn't! And then I didn't WANT to believe it.

[BertieBotts]

It's just cost isn't it? :( The problem with all this training etc, I support it fully, but actually it would probably need to be a lot more intensive than just a one day course on the signs and cycles and patterns of abuse, wouldn't it? That would get through to some and they would immediately get it, but the fact is that abuse is so widespread and low level aspects of EA are so normalised in a lot of families that actually it would probably have to involve some kind of reflective exercise as well.

I think as well that a lot of DA has firm roots in misogyny (and, apologies, but this is why I'm focusing mainly on VAW - I agree that DV happens to men also and that is still a problem, but I believe that when decent support systems are set up and abuse is understood by professionals, that support for men suffering DA will naturally also be more easily accessed) and so sexism and misogyny would also have to be addressed at a very basic level, which just seems like an impossible task when it's so ingrained. I think whatever changes are required it's going to be a long time before they have any significant effect.

[keSnowBi]

I'm in too. I'm hugely inexperienced, but I've seen it from the other side and training, law on-side etc, all helpful.

[borninastorm]

Education, education, education.
But not just in schools. As mothers we should be teaching our daughters the signs, telling them the stories (our own and our friends) that could save then. And as mothers we should be teaching our sons what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour in relationships.
We should be talking about it more often and more openly, removing the taboo by talking and talking and talking. And then talking some more.
When newspapers write articles on it that we find offensive we should be writing to them in our droves to complain.
And our police should be given powers to actually help us in dv and da situations.
I will wholeheartedly support any dv and da campaign.

[BertieBotts]

No you're right, singingprincess. I had no idea that my relationship wasn't normal. And MN does seem unique on the web - I used to post on ivillage and a fat lot of good their relationship boards were. (Not sure if it's changed in the last 3 years though) - I spent ages on the sex boards there agonising over sex drive differences and not once did anyone tell me it wasn't okay for XP to pressure me into sex, or that it was okay to have a lower sex drive, or suggested that perhaps it was the way he was behaving which might have been damening my sex drive (in any way other than telling me that I should tell him to do more housework in exchange for more sex )

The first time I had any indication that something wasn't right was the time I posted on moneysavingexpert cheerfully that the freezer was so frosted up the door hadn't closed overnight and we'd lost all our food, and XP never gave me any money so I had to make what little we had stretch for the next 2 weeks or something. Some people posted about the food but others were that he would leave me without any food and refuse to buy food on his way home when I was 6 months pregnant. Some of course asked me why I didn't just ask him for some money and then haul my pregnant self on the bus, up the steep hill we lived on with a week's worth of shopping, when he had a car and was perfectly able to shop or for us to go together. Somebody said "If you were my daughter I would want you to come home :( is that an option for you?" But I was still in denial at that point anyway, so spent the rest of the thread defending him(!)

I seriously just thought that being angry, paranoid or impossible to communicate with were normal character quirks and just things you accepted if you chose to love that person. I have since found out as well that the friend who used to live with us when I was with XP thought my relationship was "terrible" but didn't know how to say anything. I am slightly cross with him for that :( so many people seem to have this kind of view, like it's not their place to say. Maybe it should be?

[BertieBotts]

Education which comes from outside the family is vital, because many people who end up in abusive relationships are copying certain templates or patterns from their own families. My mum was fantastic when I said I wanted to leave, but up until then she was not that helpful, it sounds awful :( and feels horrible to say that, but all she could give me was wishy washy advice about telling him that his words hurt me as much as it would have if he'd hit me, (I guess aimed at getting me to realise it was just as bad) telling me how you can't change a person, all you can change is your actions towards them, (meaning leaving) and how you have to accept someone for who they are (because they're never going to change) - all factually correct, but more BLUNTNESS is needed! Because when I was in the abusive relationship fog, all that I was hearing was "you should talk to him and see if you can get him to understand" "you can change him by changing how you act towards him" and "you have taken him on so you must love him for who he is"

[malinkey]

I agree Bertie but trouble is if someone is in denial they won't listen. But yes we should be trying to point out to other people red flags if we see them. I believe my sister is in an emotionally abusive relationship - I listen to her when she gets fed up with him and moans at me and I tell her what I think but as soon as he apologises she brushes it all under the carpet and everything is wonderful again. It's painful to watch and I'm not sure what else I can do. I don't want her to stop feeling she can talk to me.

An awareness campaign might help her see that it's not just me who thinks he's the problem. I'm not sure any of her other friends really get it - to them it's just 'men are useless'. And that is the problem isn't it, unless you've been in the situation or witnessed it happening to someone else, we're just ignorant.

[malinkey]

Sorry xposted. But I think if I am more blunt with how I talk to my sister she will clam up and stop talking to me.

[singingprincess]

That's why, like the smoking/drink driving campaigns that it is the expectations of society as a whole that need to change!

My h was truly shocked when I told him that someone on here had said that they wouldn't wish my marriage on their worst enemy...he doesn't get why it's wrong to gaslight and tell me I'm mad, to tell me I'm a terrible mother/human being etc.

I have said to him that he can deny all he likes, but I KNOW, AND I MEAN KNOW WITH KNOBS ON.....That his father did this to his mother, which is almost certainly why she was on mind numbing drugs and drank herself to death. I know that his brother is the same. My poor sister in law reminds me of the mum in Muriels Wedding, (now THERE'S emotional abuse in that film, brilliantly portrayed).

To people like my h and ALL his family....and in my family too, emotional and physical abuse IS normal. My sisters are both in controlling and abusive relationships....and don't see it....because it's normal to them. Like drinking and driving used to be normal.

Rambling....sorry.

[BertieBotts]

It is hard to strike a balance between pushing someone away because they don't want to hear it and telling them the truth. And yes you are right that it's even harder when it's not backed up by others.

[BertieBotts]

I know, malinkey. It's REALLY hard in RL too. Much easier online for some reason. I feel like I can be blunter and not scare people away.

[malinkey]

And also people are probably more willing to hear the truth on here as they know there's a problem, that's why they've come here in the first place.

Yes, singing, it's society's understanding that needs tackling. And some people might not want to hear the truth as their whole lives/family are full of abusive relationships. So education is what's important.

[NettleTea]

More exposure on TV programmes - years ago Little Mo's relationships did an awful lot to bring domestic VIOLENCE to the public on Eastenders, but they always focus on the violence, and the other bit is always swept aside, or they are such awful charachters that we cant understand it. Given the statistics there must be EA going on in the families on every british soap opera, but we dont see it unless the charachter is out and out bad. There have been some very powerful tv dramas. Maybe we need some fantastic teen drama too. see this 'charming on the outside, insiduous on the inside' and see how it gradually builds up and up. People take notice of that. Look at the child abuse thing in Eastenders too?

[NettleTea]

I think alot of people find answers on here because of the fact that the control/abuse cranks up when the first child is born, and previously financially independant women are then reliant upon their husbands playing their role within the family, and appreciating the implications of the changes which are going to happen
they then come here as 'mothers' looking for help in adjusting to parenthood, and experiencing difficulties as their life, which has already had major changes in adapting to a socially regarded minor role of a mother (after all, you are now a non tax payer) they dont understand why this man, who only months before had been their shining knight in armour, now doesnt seem willing to keep up his side of the deal. Maybe he is acting jealously about the baby. Maybe he has started to undermine her parenting ability. Maybe he wont help out at all, but still expects the house to be spotless. maybe he is pushing for sex before she is physically ready or exhausted from being up all night. Maybe he has been looking for sex elsewhere, or 'doesnt fancy her' because she isnt the lithe and toned creature prior to the pregnancy. Maybe he is refusing the HV or family involvement because he thinks they are 'interfering' and is isolating her. (he may well have effectively isolated her prior to this by being possessive and all consuming/jealous in a 'caring and loving you so much' way). After a period of isolation alone in the home with a small new baby many women seem to lack confidence, start to suffer from agriphobia, may be diagnosed with PND (I often wonder how much PND is a hint of abuse) which then adds the 'madness' and unfit mother cards to his hand. If there is even a hint of MH issues (mostly caused by an abusive partner) then thats a perfect chance to use gaslighting. You can see how it progresses.

[BertieBotts]

There was an absolutely fantastic, flawless performance of NPD/EA type behaviour on Waterloo Road a few series back, with the character Max Tyler. It was picked up on as being bad but never identified as abusive (he had relationships with a couple of the female staff members so not strictly a boss/worker type thing). It's worth watching if you can get hold of it. Quite a lot is on youtube, ssh

[catherinea1971]

I agree that using tv and especially soaps is a great way of putting the problem in our front rooms to see and learn from, I remember the little Mo storyline on Eastenders, they currently have a DA storyline going on with Zainab, my daughter said this morning that they were being taught about gaslighting in school and she used the EE Zainab storyline as an example, it is a good example too.

[malinkey]

Nettle - this article reports on some research linking abuse with postnatal depression.

But as this thread shows, many women might not realise they are victims of abuse so the incidence might be much higher.