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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I am alternatively negligent / lazy with domestic chores and too controlling with children

93 replies

redblue · 24/11/2011 11:50

Typical domestic incident at home last night. Has happened many times before. I work full time. Two children DD 3 years DS 18 months. Put children in car at 7.30am and literally race round house getting things ready for when i get home 6.30pm - eg putting on washing machine, washing baby bottles, gettings something out of freezer for dinner etc. Husband works 45min commute so he leaves before children are up out of bed. Last night I had made an error of judgement about how full the dishwasher was before i left in the morning. Dinner crockery apparently wouldnt fit in although earlier that morning i had made a (wrong) judgement it would fit in. I take children off to bed, husband prepares to put dinner under the grill/veg in microwave, he opens dishwasher and starts shouting about it being too full - ie it was crap of me not to turn it on earlier that morning. This is an error of judgement I have made quite a lot in the past, i am now nervous about it as he gets so angry. I was reading bedtime story to children but went back into kitchen to say (as I always do) just leave it i will wash everything up after dinner. He is very angry with me. Children come into kitchen and he totally changes and becomes soft with them, does not want children to see him angry. I feel quite intimidated when he gets like that, i say come back into bedroom to children. Son will not listen to bedtime story which daughter wants and starts acting up and crying. Husband comes into bedroom and insists on taking son. I feel criticised about being crap about housework so resist husband taking son, husband accues me of being controlling and excluding him from family life. Husband takes son and tries to put him to bed. After i come out from daughters bedroom husband is standing outside sons shut bedroom door listening to him crying (i.e waiting for son to go to sleep). I know i must not interfer so i dont. The rest of the evening was total non communication.
I feel constantly accused of being either negligent and crap at domestic tasks or too controlling of the children. I have now offered husband by email that i will go away and leave the children entirely with him for weekends of his choice and even christmas if he wants as I am not controlling the children or stopping him see them. I have also said i will put the dishwasher on every single morning irrespective of how full it is (it gets quite full with childrens lunchboxes etc after work so although empty in the morning suddenly full early evening). Dont know what else to do. Husband does not communicate with me or respond to any of my suggestions. He just shouts and accuses me of being over controlling feels like i am walking on a precipice

OP posts:
kikibo · 25/11/2011 17:34

"Have you tried just taking a deep breath and thinking 'actually, I don't care'? Just block his huffing out? That is hard but it works for me in all sorts of situations - like just relax and admit 'I can't fix this' and smile. He might be astonished that he's not got you on the ropes anymore and the new dynamic could feed into some talking?"

I think we are on the same track here. Smile

I don't think kicking off is a good idea just yet (as you don't know what is likely to happen), but that may work in the future.

I used to go on strike sometimes and refuse to do the ironning. Difficult, life without an ironed shirt.

Not caring is the key. He gets at you because he is like this, but he can't get you if you don't care. So for your own sake, just don't care. If it is good enough for you, it is good enough for him and otherwise he should do something about it (which he does). It may not be as bad as it seems...

So, as you have now offered a solution for the dishwasher, be consequent, but no longer offer any solutions any more for further issues. Just carry on as normal and if he doesn't like it, tough shit. (sorry Grin). I think you did well in that e-mail. He hasn't replied, but that doesn't mean he hasn't read it. Let it sit for a while. If he says or does anything bad again, leave it and tell him later that you really did not like it and don't mention it any further (this is not 'I don't understand why you snap at me', but in the event that he were to shout at you in front of the children for example). Don't be angry, don't be emotional, don't kick off, just mention it. That worked with my husband as he started to slowly see that such things played on my mind although they didn't on his. He claims he has forgotten and blocked it out. I sometimes wonder but it is possibility.

In particular things like shouting close to your ear (has happened to me too, back against the wall and shouting in my face) is frightening. But don't tell him that, tell him you could actually have become deaf because of this (which is true). That is if it is still relevant. That it is not acceptable and there is an end to it.

I can imagine that you don't want to do this for the rest of your lifetime, I wasn't considering that either.

Is there any chance of your daughter and son doing something really cute, or doesn't he take to that? In that event, stay well away and see how he does, but make sure your daughter doesn't become too clingy. And stay around so you can go and 'help' him if he needs you (for the emotional stuff).

I think the weekends are maybe a good time to 'include' him (if he is tired during the week). It is possible he feels that you are excluding him because the children (particularly your daughter) will come to you (as they see you more often). Next time your daughter comes to show you something or comes to tell you something, ask her to go and show daddy too, because daddy will also be interested. Make something for daddy? That might melt him (not visibly Wink). If this works, you can try the 'tonight, daddy is really tired, but tomorrow daddy will read you a story, won't you, daddy?' I think this may make the wrong impression at this point. Don't ask him to come and help, let the children request his presence. If it doesn't work, or if it is liable to end in tears from their side then don't. If he does clean something up or put one of the children to bed thank him for it, maybe ask him how it went.

Maybe you could plan an afternoon or a few hours out. Let's say go for a walk. Ask him if he would prefer you to leave the children with him or to leave only one, or take the two of them with you. Maybe he would like to come? Don't know if this is possible, but as he doesn't want you housebound and wants quality time, he may just have enough self-confidence to make it through the afternoon. (if it is a self-confidence issue)

You could, down the road, try to buy him a book on stress management and leave it in a strategic place or a leaflet. Only if you feel confident he is wondering about himself, though.

I feel sorry for you and you should know what you want to do: walk or stay and change. I stayed because I felt that the man I had met was gone and that he was somewhere in there. I doubted at some point that it was going to work, but we moved to another country, to a job with more money and fewer hours and hey presto! Gone was the stress and back was the talking. I don't know whether that is applicabe to you, but things can change.

redblue · 25/11/2011 17:40

kikibo you are a star thank you for your detailed post
can i re read it later tonight? read it v quickly and about to leave to collect children from nursery school and home for dinner/bathtime etc
thanks again

OP posts:
malinkey · 25/11/2011 20:50

dishwasher - it is more that i have put 4 solutions to him as to timing when i put it on every day and he just does not answer. Well he says to me by email "dont worry about the dishwasher" - but i know as an absolute certainty the same dishwasher is full before dinner will happen again so I am just going to work on putting it on every single day and hope this is the right thing

Do you think his decision is the only one? Why is his way the right way?

So, if he's telling you not to worry about it, why not take him at his word?! Don't worry about it. Let him deal with the dishwasher and don't rush to do anything about it if he kicks off about it again. Let that be his job seeing as it's him who has the problem with it. Same with anything else he wants to complain about - don't rush into trying to sort it out to appease him - if he's not happy with the way something's done just let him get on with doing something about it.

Be interesting to see how he would react to that. I suspect he would just find something else to complain about or start trying to use different tactics to upset you but I hope I'm wrong.

ThereGoesTheFear · 25/11/2011 21:51

I do understand why you might be looking for ways to 'manage' his behaviour. But really, this is based on the belief that:

  1. He's actually bothered by the dishwasher (he's not, he's just trying to make you feel like crap) and/or
  2. He cares about the fact that you're being made to feel anxious in your own home (even if he was blind and needed it pointed out in your email, he's simply ignored it because he doesn't care ) and/or
  3. He has any incentive to behave differently when his wife tiptoes around doing most of the work and never questioning his rights to e.g. a 'rest' whilst she works her socks off.

And it's so damaging for you to feel that if you just did something differently it would all be ok. It's not you it's him. He's emotionally abusing you, making you agonise over a bloody dishwasher FFS! I know that the idea of leaving is so big and so scary that you have to be able to prove to yourself that you have tried everything. The only possible way that people like this will change involves years of work, universal condemnation (from friends, family) and harsh consequences - like him moving out until this is completely over. Not pandering to him and trying to get him to love his own child more Hmm.

NotJustClassic · 25/11/2011 22:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

foolonthehill · 25/11/2011 23:11

I could be you redblue.

my OH ended up turning over a table, throwing me down the stairs, tipping the laundry basket over banisters 3 flights up, and screaming about me controlling him when I asked him to put his breakfast bowl in the dishwasherquite politely...he'd never been physically violent before either. But he had done pretty much everything else you describe. My Oh is an accomplished emotional abuser who also "could not talk about" things that had happened in his life before he met me...I have since found out he consistently gave me the wrong impression of events.

Be careful.
I would strongly recommend you read Lundy Bancroft or some of the other resources on Emotional Abuse on the net.
Use private browsing just in case.
If you think he fits the profile, don't confront him initially. Work out what you want to do and form a strategy.
Stay safe, if he is an Emotional Abuser if he feels his control slipping he may well increase his vigilance and undermine you more and even deny reality itself (gaslighting).
If you solved the dishwasher problem there would be a different one.He's using it as a distractor to keep you busy thinking of solutions and not thinking about him and what he is doing.

it is not you, it is him, listen to your instincts.

kikibo · 26/11/2011 23:10

"If you solved the dishwasher problem there would be a different one.He's using it as a distractor to keep you busy thinking of solutions and not thinking about him and what he is doing."

That's why I suggested ignoring. If he is trying to abuse and control, he is going to find something else until it become so blatant that it is clear what he is trying. If he doesn't want to control, he'll leave off after a while. Or his behaviour would go in cycles where it is worse when he is more stressed.

I am anxious to see what the sequel to this story is going to be...

ThereGoesTheFear · 27/11/2011 23:12

Even if he's not consciously abusing you, he might believe that he has a right to take out any of his frustrations out on you. If it gets worse when he's stressed, it doesn't mean it's not abuse. Just means that you're a receptacle for his bad moods.

garlicnutter · 29/11/2011 02:30

The more you post, redblue, the more this man gives me the chills. What you've been saying about "needing the children to love him" isn't love or insecurity. It's control. The thing about turning the dishwasher off and taking the tablet out - you see how utterly weird that is, don't you? Even without the background of the dishwasher being his current point of influence - if a normal, healthy man did that, it would be downright strange. In this case, it's ...

For the benefit of the pacifists & apologists on your thread, I'm going to tell a small story about my ex. Forgive the hijack, please.

His outbursts were becoming ever more inexplicable and ferocious. I'd started counselling by that time ("What's wrong with me?") and my counsellor advised remembering that an angry person is a person in pain. There was a 'storm' the very next day so, keeping her words in mind, I stayed calm, sympathetic, open. "What's bothering you?" I asked, showing honest concern. It took him aback for the very slightest moment. Then he changed tack, raged some more, and broke the kitchen. I thought "my counsellor made a mistake on that one".

You know how significant moments register with you, even though you can't frame what it is you've registered? I can't remember ANY of the hundreds of vicious rows we had, only moments from three of them. That was one. What I registered, there, was that it wasn't me. It was him.

We are not children, we're adults with adult understanding of the world, and so are our partners. We understand what's really going on. If two women have husbands who make a drama out of the dishwashing and only one of them feels frightened or confused by it, then only one has an unbalanced relationship and she is probably being abused.

If you want to try different tacks, redblue, go ahead. Try concern; try humour; try reason; try standing up to him. You never know what you might learn. But, whatever you do, please keep posting. Things may well escalate, and there are some very wise people keeping an eye open for you here.

kikibo · 29/11/2011 10:47

"The more you post, redblue, the more this man gives me the chills. What you've been saying about "needing the children to love him" isn't love or insecurity. It's control. The thing about turning the dishwasher off and taking the tablet out - you see how utterly weird that is, don't you? Even without the background of the dishwasher being his current point of influence - if a normal, healthy man did that, it would be downright strange. In this case, it's ... "

I wouldn't say that is normal, but I know my father has done this too (not dishwasher, but telephone plug), if really angry and he is not at all a violent or abusing man. My parents, as far as I can see, are happy, although there have been some rows in the past like every couple has them. Other than that, he is very introverted, like I am too and like my grandfather, but he has never tried to control anyone.

And I have lived with my father and mother until I was 18-19.

Not every abuse (because that is abuse) has the same cause, though.

garlicnutter · 29/11/2011 16:59

No, not every abuse has the same cause. Plus, we're all capable of behaving abusively when we're having an irrational moment for some reason. That doesn't make us abusers - the difference is in the pattern; the overall picture. OP isn't talking about an isolated blip, which would still be worth discussing, but about an emotional 'system' - it makes her unhappy and her H doesn't care enough about her happiness to alter his 'system'. Therefore he's abusive.

If you prefer, we can call him a bully. Same thing.

I found myself thinking about this thread last night. I wanted to stress that ALL controlling behaviour is rooted in fear. It's not wrong to say "he does it because he's insecure." The mistake occurs when the bullied person feels they must fix their bully's insecurities. It's impossible. You can't rewrite history, give him a better childhood, and find yourself married to a different man! He can change himself if he chooses, but it's an unpleasant process and most choose not to bother ... because they don't really care if they hurt others.

I made the mistake of thinking you can 'love them better', more than once. I'm sad for the pain I put myself through, and also sad for the mother whose own choices taught me to suffer for love. When I see women making the choices my mother and I did, I feel sad for the children who are learning just the same poor lessons now.

ThereGoesTheFear · 29/11/2011 20:13

Thanks for your last post garlicnutter. Very perceptive, and helps me sort out a few things in my head.

garlicnutter · 29/11/2011 22:28

:) thank you for telling me.

redblue · 30/11/2011 23:30

kikibo especially i owe you
im maybe not ready,

thsnkyou for your posts

OP posts:
springydaffs · 01/12/2011 10:27

It takes time to turn the ocean liner of a dysfunctional relationship around.

You seem to be being held to ransom for his unhappy childhood ie the big issue is what happened re his parents, and you have been forced to tiptoe around to not replicate what happened. I hate to say it but I've been there. It got to the point where I thought "I wasn't there, it had nothing to do with me, I wouldn't have condoned it if I was there" and I couldn't see why I was being forced to pay the price for something that had nothing to do with me.

I think people like this hook you in with lurid stories of their terrible childhood so you feel sorry for them and want to make it all alright for them, to show them you're not like that and you'll love them properly. imo they very clearly expect you to feel sorry for them and send the message that it is going to be your job to make up for their childhood and you better not fail.

re the dishwasher and him disabling it and removing the tablet - he's messing with your head OP. I find that quite frightening tbh. This isn't about the dishwasher/washing/highchair - you got that, right? You are consumed with coming up with ever more complicated strategies to manage him and his behaviour - whereas he doesn't seem to be doing anything to manage his behaviour (when it is actually up to him to manage his own behaviour, not you).

And the only communication you have is via email - which he ignores if you aren't saying what he wants to hear. Op, that is so sad. YOur posts sound extremely scattered, spinning with fear and trepidation. That's no way to live is it? Sad

springydaffs · 01/12/2011 10:32

that ocean liner comment - I meant to delete it before posting. imo you have done all you need to do to address what is going on (and some!) but it takes two.

what I meant to say is that it takes time to face a dysfunctional relationship, to call it what it is. Counselling would help OP, to clarify the issues. The LUndy Bancroft book is amazing too if you've got the time!

UnexpectedOrange · 01/12/2011 19:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ReindeerBollocks · 01/12/2011 21:12

My father was like this. Even down to the giving love once he had received it.

We used to all tense when he came in from work, until he or we went to bed. It was really bizarre looking back, the way small things would dominate what should be a happy household.

It's not you - it really isn't. It's him and his controlling ways which aree causing you to behave this way,

FFS a dishwasher is bought to make life easier not something for him to lose his temper about, or you to get anxious over. I agree it's purely just a guise for him dominating you and keeping you in your place. Although he is ok with the children now, wait til they get older and want to build independent lives of their own, if he is similar to my father (which he sounds ) it will make the behaviour worse.

Build your own confidence first. His opinion is not vital nor more important than your own, and you should never be living in fear. Work on this rather than thinking its a get out or stay scenario. Once you have more confidence in yourself the right decision will be more apparent to you.

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