I am alternatively negligent / lazy with domestic chores and too controlling with children

[redblue]

Typical domestic incident at home last night. Has happened many times before. I work full time. Two children DD 3 years DS 18 months. Put children in car at 7.30am and literally race round house getting things ready for when i get home 6.30pm - eg putting on washing machine, washing baby bottles, gettings something out of freezer for dinner etc. Husband works 45min commute so he leaves before children are up out of bed. Last night I had made an error of judgement about how full the dishwasher was before i left in the morning. Dinner crockery apparently wouldnt fit in although earlier that morning i had made a (wrong) judgement it would fit in. I take children off to bed, husband prepares to put dinner under the grill/veg in microwave, he opens dishwasher and starts shouting about it being too full - ie it was crap of me not to turn it on earlier that morning. This is an error of judgement I have made quite a lot in the past, i am now nervous about it as he gets so angry. I was reading bedtime story to children but went back into kitchen to say (as I always do) just leave it i will wash everything up after dinner. He is very angry with me. Children come into kitchen and he totally changes and becomes soft with them, does not want children to see him angry. I feel quite intimidated when he gets like that, i say come back into bedroom to children. Son will not listen to bedtime story which daughter wants and starts acting up and crying. Husband comes into bedroom and insists on taking son. I feel criticised about being crap about housework so resist husband taking son, husband accues me of being controlling and excluding him from family life. Husband takes son and tries to put him to bed. After i come out from daughters bedroom husband is standing outside sons shut bedroom door listening to him crying (i.e waiting for son to go to sleep). I know i must not interfer so i dont. The rest of the evening was total non communication.
I feel constantly accused of being either negligent and crap at domestic tasks or too controlling of the children. I have now offered husband by email that i will go away and leave the children entirely with him for weekends of his choice and even christmas if he wants as I am not controlling the children or stopping him see them. I have also said i will put the dishwasher on every single morning irrespective of how full it is (it gets quite full with childrens lunchboxes etc after work so although empty in the morning suddenly full early evening). Dont know what else to do. Husband does not communicate with me or respond to any of my suggestions. He just shouts and accuses me of being over controlling feels like i am walking on a precipice

The dishwasher seems to be one of the main problems for the OP at the moment, amongst many other things. OP asked what should she do about that. I have tried to offer a suggestion, which she asked for.

"I have also said i will put the dishwasher on every single morning irrespective of how full it is (it gets quite full with childrens lunchboxes etc after work so although empty in the morning suddenly full early evening). Dont know what else to do"

I also think that the OP is in some instances second guessing a lot, and much of what she has posted is about how she feels, what she thinks, and what she thinks he may mean, when it is possible that she is over thinking and worrying about something that is not going to happen, or is not being meant in the way she thinks.

I am not for a moment saying that OPs husband is innocent, he most certainly isnt. But what I would say is OP needs to find her voice, and stand up to him if he moans about such trivial shit as a full dishwasher.

The main problem here I think is communication. It definately seems that the husband has emotional problems, and seems unable or scared to properly bond with his children, fearing rejection. He may also feel the same way about the OP. He certainly seems to have a lot of issues that go back to his childhood and his relationship with his parents, that he needs to deal with before he wrecks the life he has now.

OP shouldnt pussyfoot around him,

"if i ask him for something a lot of the time i feel like he thinks i am a pain in the arse so i try not to ask - this bit is probably my low self esteem"

Both parties here need to resolve their problems. He needs to deal with the past and realise that it does not and need not be repeated. OP needs to not be a doormat, and needs to find her voice, and use it.

Oh redblue I feel for you. I could have written your OP a year ago. This is not your problem. It is not your responsibility to 'manage' your husband's tantrums.

To suggest that you need to do something differently is placing responsibility for his abusive behaviour on your shoulders.

Your husband is keeping you walking on eggshells. The dishwasher thing is bonkers. You both know deep down it's not your fault. You both know that even if you were doing it 'wrong' that it is not worth an evening of bad-feeling. But if it wasn't housework it would be something else. He does it because he likes you to be feeling insecure, that you're a bit rubbish at everything, that you have to be constantly smoothing things over and second-guessing his reaction to things in case he gets upset with you.

He is deliberately doing this to control you. The same with the criticism of your parenting. Making you deny all your instincts (a crying 18mo!?) to avoid yet another row is soul-destroying.

You are working your arse off. You are coming in from work and getting stuck in to hw and childcare whilst he has half an hour to have a drink etc. and he's still whining? The fact that you are not angry about that shows that he is getting you exactly where he wants you.

I only opened my eyes to my H's behaviour when he started talking to my 4yo DD the way he spoke to me. I had lost so much self-esteem that I couldn't see how bad it had gotten towards me.

Stop making excuses for him. Would you treat another human being the way he treats you?

Maybe you need to speak to a therapist on your own to get this clear in your head. But please come and have a look at EA support thread, especially the links at the start.

you feel scared when he shouts at you for the dishwasher not being on or emptied and he shouts at you about control , is he normally an angry man or are you quite a nervous person, perhaps he isnt shouting as much as you feel he although you should never feel scared in your own home at all , you run around with 2 kiddies to be out the door for 7 30 am , there is going to be somethings not done perhaps your husband could stick the dishwasher on before he leaves , I think you need to try and tell him how you feel . Just think what you would say if your read a post from another woman writing the same things , what would your reaction be ,

I think his ongoing anger has made OP a nervous wreak over time; abuse like this is insidious too in its onset. If not the dishwasher, it would be something else, anything else to create bad feeling.

This is at heart about power and control, he now has OP where he wants her i.e completely compliant. He may well be deeply unhappy (and given his childhood I can see why that is) but his wife is not responsible for his behaviour now. Nor is it her job to try and fix him because she cannot, that is down to him alone.

Talking to him though will not work because OPs husband is uncommunicative and does not want to know. OPs posts have indicated this re her H all too clearly.

If he was a normal person without anger/control issues - having a conversation about things might help.
Unfortunately, the chances are he will not react well to such a conversation.
I tried having 'chats' about how I felt when dh was ranting about the dishwasher (or other housework, or how I cooked pasta, or how I dealt with dc, or about anything really). He ended up twisting things around so that he 'had the right' to be offended/upset/angry about how I discussed the issue with him. My feelings simply didn't matter at all to him (he has since admitted this).
The OP has the right to feel upset when her dh is angry, I'm quite convinced that her dh though has plenty of arguments up his sleeve for why she doesn't.
Carrying around that upset is very stressful in the long run. Most of us who have been in that situation, know how it feels - you want to do everything you can so as not to rock the boat or cause a row. Hence the 'overthinking' around insignificant issues such as how to organise the dishwasher (insert stick of choice here). It's exhausting and stressful.

thanks everyone i really appreciate you taking the time to post.
squeaky i can totally see your point of view, i frequently think "just get a grip" and resolve not to react
Turning on the dishwasher seems sooo pathetic but I know it is a real trigger for him. similarly in the summer months (and this started when I was on maternity leave) if he comes home to find washing on the line (even if there is a very valid reason why it was hung out in the afternoon so not yet dry) he gets very angry. He also got very angry if there was any food on the seat of the high chair so I now wash down the high chair and initially started not feeding my children in the high chair but elsewhere to avoid the situation.

Admitting it is very dull to bore you all with an update on the dishwasher scenario, I set everything ready to turn the dishwasher on first thing this morning but when I came to do it before leaving at 7.30am i found he had deactivated the time delay mechanism so it was effectively turned off and removed the tablet. So now I dont know what to do as he seems to be saying i dont want it on every day but without doubt at some point it will become too full at that crucial time one evening in the future and the dinner things wont fit in.
I have tried putting it on in the evening but the shortest cycle is about 2 hours so am unpacking it about 11.30pm or midnight which is fine but not ideal. Maybe I just put the dishwasher on the minute i get home from work at 6.30pm, it finishes around 8.30pm which is around our dinner time and I can empty just before we eat then eat my dinner and refill the dishwasher then

Anyway how sad, sorry and pathetic of me to be wondering out loud like this about timing for putting on dishwashers

As for talking to my husband, cannot see how it will ever happen, i guess all i can do is change my reaction to him and hope that does not exacerbate things or make him worse

Do you see how odd his reactions and behaviour is? You shouldn't be treading on eggshells around someone because a button hasn't been pressed on a dishwasher or if the washing is drying on the line when he's in the house.. NONE of that is normal and his behaviour is certainly not reasonable.

And his competitive parenting is not healthy either.. if this springs from childhood issues, do you think he might be open to counselling, for this AND his anger issues?

Do you want to stay in this relationship if nothing changes? It must be a real strain on your nerves..

snuffaluffagus how do you suggest counselling to a man who does not want to talk about anything.
I love him as in many ways he is stable, reliable and probably deep down has a good heart (although we will never have a heart to heart so to speak for that to become apparent)
But so far as I can see it will just be a carry on the way we are and the only thing i can change is my reaction to it and hope that does not make him more controlling

As for getting out of the relationship, i desperately dont want to deprive my children of their father. But i guess if i won the lottery tomorrow night i would find it very hard not to buy myself somewhere else and i quite often have daydreams about having my little ones somewhere where he might come and visit and see for himself that yes I can keep things going in terms of running the household and nurturing my babies quite well and efficiently and to a high standard without him kicking my butt all the time (so to speak, not literally)

I cannot believe that he's giving you grief about the washing on the line etc - and his actions re the dishwasher just show HOW unreasonable he's been - you worked out a solution for the 'problem' that he himself had created a stink about - and he has, without telling you, stopped that solution from working - no doubt you would get it in the neck again if there's no room later.

All this about emptying the dishwasher before the meal or at 11.30pm at night is also not on -if he is going to be SO unreasonable about the dishwasher, its HIS turn to do something about it.

I love the way he feels as though he deserves a sit down after getting in from work. How 50's of him. YOU TOO HAVE BEEN AT WORK so why is he allowed a rest and not you? Even on the day you're not at work, looking after your two children is a full-time occupation in its own right, although I can imagine that you can fit some things around them.

For your own sanity, I would make a list of all the things that need doing in the house on a weekly basis, and work out how much time they take. Then write a list of all the things that need to be done with your two dcs (and that includes reading to them, playing with them, taking them and picking them up from nursery and taking them out to the park etc). Work out how much time this all comes to. Then work out what % of all of that you're responsible for. I bet it's more than 50% even if you take account of say 9 hrs on your day you're not working.

Are you going to wait until he starts talking to your daughter in a similar way to how he talks to you? or wait until he encourages your son to treat you and/or your daughter in a similar fashion? Do you want a future potential DiL (I know that's some time off) posting on a site like this in 20 years and saying that she's frightened in her own house? This sort of behaviour from him is not normal and neither is it acceptable.

There are lots of people on this thread who have been through something similar - please listen to them and get some help initially for yourself, hopefully to give you the strength to either help your H work out how to be a better husband and father or to be able to draw a line under the relationship thinking that you did your best but could not do any more.

you can leavve dishwsaher running at night then empty it in the morning - you dont have to get up as soon as it finishes. that is nuts.

living apart does not have to mean depriving them of a father - they can be with him 50/50.

"he is stable,"

no he isnt he "gets so angry" over a dishwasher ...

"reliable" - yes you can rely on him to shout and get cross over petty things and have you walking on egg shells ... or you can rely on him to not communicate with you at all.

" and probably deep down has a good heart "
the fact you can only say "probably" about someone you live with 24/7 says a lot really.... you are digging deep to try and find his heart and that is no way to live

read what you say
"if he comes home to find washing on the line (even if there is a very valid reason why it was hung out in the afternoon so not yet dry) he gets very angry. He also got very angry if there was any food on the seat of the high chair so I now wash down the high chair and initially started not feeding my children in the high chair but elsewhere to avoid the situation."

you are tip toeing around and avoiding outbursts - this si what i did til i saw the light.

it is not a way to live.
if he doesnt like washing on the line - laugh and say "well you bring it in then"

when we lvied with exP my dc could not paint or do messy play.
life has changed so utterly - and it is the build up of all those dishwasher/crumbs on chair/washing n line incidents.

think about it - lsit all teh times he ahs been
stable
reliable
good heart

the messing about with dishwasher timer - he is trying to undermine you for sure . why is he doing this?

can you just ask himt hat one thing?
and see what response you get - dont respond to it or argue but note it down

"Anyway how sad, sorry and pathetic of me to be wondering out loud like this about timing for putting on dishwashers2

no - it is sad
sorry
pathetic

of him that he wont sit and talk and agree a practical solution - but i bet he likes this idea of control

I understand the difficult if he won't even talk redblue. I imagine he would take any comments as a criticism wouldn't he?

Even if you seperated, you wouldn't be depriving them of a father, he would still see them.

"As for getting out of the relationship, i desperately dont want to deprive my children of their father"

Well tbh they not getting all that much from him now and won't get much from him either as they become older. He is not a great dad either if he treats the mother of his children the way he does. Your children will pick up on all this and learn from you both. This is no childhood legacy to leave them, honestly.

Look too at what his parents taught him about relationships - damaging lessons which he is now passing onto you all.

A man who becomes overtly angry at things like food on the highchair (and you have changed your own behaviours to fit in with his), a dishwasher and washing on the line is I would argue a deeply damaged individual. And you cannot fix this, you can only act for your own self and by turn your children.

Read Lundy Bancroft's book too. These men act like this too because they can. He knows full well what he is doing.

"I know it is a real trigger for him. similarly in the summer months (and this started when I was on maternity leave) if he comes home to find washing on the line (even if there is a very valid reason why it was hung out in the afternoon so not yet dry) he gets very angry. He also got very angry if there was any food on the seat of the high chair so I now wash down the high chair and initially started not feeding my children in the high chair but elsewhere to avoid the situation."

Now that worries me. I can understand that your 3 yo cries because she wants to see her daddy. If he was just depressed, you could maybe make him understand that that is because she has not enough quality time with him. Without upsetting him, of course (it seems that he could have some emotional issues). Upsetting not in terms of angering him, but just 'speaking' to him in an emotional way. If he had emotional, bonding issues, he would display such behaviour because too must emotional stuff makes him scared, thus running away when his daughter becomes cross. But that he kicks off when he sees washing on the line... That is a problem. What does he say in such cases?

"Admitting it is very dull to bore you all with an update on the dishwasher scenario, I set everything ready to turn the dishwasher on first thing this morning but when I came to do it before leaving at 7.30am i found he had deactivated the time delay mechanism so it was effectively turned off and removed the tablet. So now I dont know what to do as he seems to be saying i dont want it on every day but without doubt at some point it will become too full at that crucial time one evening in the future and the dinner things wont fit in.
I have tried putting it on in the evening but the shortest cycle is about 2 hours so am unpacking it about 11.30pm or midnight which is fine but not ideal. Maybe I just put the dishwasher on the minute i get home from work at 6.30pm, it finishes around 8.30pm which is around our dinner time and I can empty just before we eat then eat my dinner and refill the dishwasher then."

That worries me too. I would just ask why he removed it and demand it back. It is surely my dishwasher too so I have as much say over it as he. 50% of material things in this marriage are yours, so he gives it back. And tell him you really do not see how that could make anything clear.

You should never ever ever ever change your routine to avoid his anger. If he is an abuser, he would relish that. Can you see how ridiculous that is? I mean, if he is stressed and kicks off on one about a dishwasher, that could still be excused, but that you start to avoid the highchair because he may kick off on one becuse there is food on it... That starts to become a little crazy. If he gets angry, for whatever reason, that is his problem not yours.

If he truly starts shouting so you can hear it in the bedroom, I would try not to listen and to carry on as normal.

If he wishes to control you, he will soon get angrier and try something else if that doesn't work anymore. If he does, walk away, even if it is with dcs.

I think it is sad that he doesn't want to help you with the children in the evening, but maybe (just maybe) he is just very tired. It doesn't necessarily need to be malicious. It may be, though. Particularly the display thing, the highchair and the washing line situations are suspicious. Has he ever been violent (slapping you, breaking things, banging things, I don't know)?

But please bear in mind that I may be mistaken about this.

Maybe it would be helpful if you were to think of whether he has ever expressed a desire for you not to work or for you not to meet any friends/family any longer. Abusers normally want to isolate their 'victims' so they can control them better.

At any rate, what you are thinking is not fair to yourself, nor is he being fair to you.

kikibo thanks for your thoughtful and balanced post which is accurate in reflecting the "shades" in the situation it is not black and white
Dont feel the need to post again if you dont want to but these are the short answers to some of your questions

• no he has never been violent to me but during one argument between us he shouted right up close into my ear. apart from that he has never restrained me or anything physical
• Your words "If he had emotional, bonding issues, he would display such behaviour because too must emotional stuff makes him scared, thus running away when his daughter becomes cross" rings true. The theme of our own relationship has always been that he has NOT done things, not communicated, not shown affection (apart from sex which goes in cycles but is often infrequent, i assume often due to tiredness of one or both of us, i dont think he is having an affair or anything like that)
• dishwasher - it is more that i have put 4 solutions to him as to timing when i put it on every day and he just does not answer. Well he says to me by email "dont worry about the dishwasher" - but i know as an absolute certainty the same dishwasher is full before dinner will happen again so I am just going to work on putting it on every single day and hope this is the right thing
• washing on the line / food in the highchair - dont know the answer to these things. I do know his mother is extremely extremely houseproud and he indicated before we were married she got more houseproud when she was stressed. On the occassions there is washing on the line or food in the highchair he will bring it in / clean it up (food in the highchair is crumbs not full on messy baby food all over the place) very loudly / with anger and without agreeing i can do it or it can wait half an hour and i will get to it shortly
• yes he is very stressed at work and (I think) a bit frustrated/depressed with his job situation in response to which i try to make homelife as stress free as possible (unsuccessfully as he finds something i have not done)
• he has never ever tried to stop me working, infact he helps me work by an arrangement we have in relation to a car
• he has never actively stopped me seeing my family although he is not overly keen on them and my own communication with my family is not great, but that is not actively or directly as a result of him

"If he truly starts shouting so you can hear it in the bedroom, I would try not to listen and to carry on as normal" - thank you for this suggestion - practical suggestions are very helpful and I will try this and see how it pans out.

redblue I am shocked at this thread - you poor thing, having to try and work out a 'dishwasher strategy' on top of everything else you have to do. The part about him messing around with the timer and the tablet is

This is probably terrible advice but have you tried kicking off yourself - like really shouting and telling him to get bent etc? My DH has a leaning towards being controlling sometimes (father issues again!) so I have to keep on top of things and sometimes get really mean and shouty to get my voice heard. When we are not in the 'eye of the storm' is when we can talk about things and reach an agreement.

I guess the crux is if your DH knows he is unreasonable and just forgets himself sometimes (like my DH) or whether he thinks being so horrible is his right as a man or whatever.

Not that I'm blaming you for his behaviour - I just hope you feel like you really deserve to not be in this situation and stick up for yourself. Noone deserves what you are describing here.

thanks art for posting
maybe once or twice i have been agressive although most of the time i feel paralysed by the situation or trying to avoid triggers rather than fronting up against him
i suspect he might use my kicking off as ammunition against me if i did it regularly
i have told him that in the long term i would like to feel relaxed in my own home and that not all the time but on a reasonably regular basis i feel apprehensive at home. I said if i feel apprehensive for years to come i dont know what i will do in terms of us as a couple.
he did not reply to that email

Okay, I think it might be counter-productive if its not in your nature. I can get very lairy without actually getting that emotional - if I felt very emotional I think I'd cry or go too far with what I said. (I'm just a wind-bag :) )

Have you tried just taking a deep breath and thinking 'actually, I don't care'? Just block his huffing out? That is hard but it works for me in all sorts of situations - like just relax and admit 'I can't fix this' and smile. He might be astonished that he's not got you on the ropes anymore and the new dynamic could feed into some talking?

You are 100% right that you can't do a lifetime of this.

"hope this is the right thing"

there is no right and wrong in this - jsut whatever works for you all and for the house. you shoudl not be having angst about "getting it right"

• put the dishwasher on every evening; leave it to run overnight; and empty it in the morning.

" he will bring it in / clean it up very loudly / with anger and without agreeing i can do it or it can wait half an hour and i will get to it shortly" why should you be running around after it - it is neeeds doing one of you does it - maybe with a calmly said - - "i'll clean the chair, can you sweep the floor" or whatever...

look, the good thing is you are now questioning and thinking about whether you want to live like this - you DO have a choice you know.

redblue,

What would your advice be if another woman was writing such things?.

He did not reply to your e-mail perhaps too because he does not want to; he is getting what he wants from this relationship and the balance of power is all on his side. He has moulded you to become compliant and you have yourself changed to try and avoid any further outbursts. Feeling paralysed too in the face of his fury is yet another red flag here.

He does not care about you and by turn your children or what you think.

Consider too the culmalative effects of all this on your children by them fully seeing how you conduct yourselves, would you want them as adults to have a similar sort of relationship as you have now?.

What are you getting out of this relationship now?.

redblue...reading your post saddens me. You are a mother & wife trying to do her very best & you are being intimidated & belittled. Please see that you are not to blame & deserve better treatment. My DH had lived on his own when we got together..I had not so the whole 'domestic set-up' was very new to me. That was 8 years ago & during that time we have worked together on domestic chores (I do 90% now I am a SAHM & only work weekends)...but he would kindly tell me that the dishwasher was never going to wash if I stacked it like I had...never intimidated me. Now I am better than he is at it all! My point is this...marriage & parenting is team work...if he has underlying issues...he needs to deal with those...& I would suggest you seek advice/support from someone in RL you can trust.

thank you wifey6 and everyone else who has posted
i cannot tell you how much it means to have people post, it helps even if i am not yet in a position to act on it properly yet

I think you just need to keep telling yourself that it is not you that is the problem. You are not being unreasonable. You shouldn't have to be jumping around to his every whim. Look after yourself.

I agree...look after yourself & your children & focus on gaining the strength to deal with this situation.

If you work full time and look after two small children, why the hell are any of the domestic duties yours? Surely he should do them, and certainly if you are good and kind enough to do some of them then at least you can expect not to be criticised for not doing them well enough!
Practical suggestion: next time he shouts at you or criticises the way you do things why don't you just tell him you are going on strike, until he stops his tantrums? FFS