I am alternatively negligent / lazy with domestic chores and too controlling with children

[redblue]

Typical domestic incident at home last night. Has happened many times before. I work full time. Two children DD 3 years DS 18 months. Put children in car at 7.30am and literally race round house getting things ready for when i get home 6.30pm - eg putting on washing machine, washing baby bottles, gettings something out of freezer for dinner etc. Husband works 45min commute so he leaves before children are up out of bed. Last night I had made an error of judgement about how full the dishwasher was before i left in the morning. Dinner crockery apparently wouldnt fit in although earlier that morning i had made a (wrong) judgement it would fit in. I take children off to bed, husband prepares to put dinner under the grill/veg in microwave, he opens dishwasher and starts shouting about it being too full - ie it was crap of me not to turn it on earlier that morning. This is an error of judgement I have made quite a lot in the past, i am now nervous about it as he gets so angry. I was reading bedtime story to children but went back into kitchen to say (as I always do) just leave it i will wash everything up after dinner. He is very angry with me. Children come into kitchen and he totally changes and becomes soft with them, does not want children to see him angry. I feel quite intimidated when he gets like that, i say come back into bedroom to children. Son will not listen to bedtime story which daughter wants and starts acting up and crying. Husband comes into bedroom and insists on taking son. I feel criticised about being crap about housework so resist husband taking son, husband accues me of being controlling and excluding him from family life. Husband takes son and tries to put him to bed. After i come out from daughters bedroom husband is standing outside sons shut bedroom door listening to him crying (i.e waiting for son to go to sleep). I know i must not interfer so i dont. The rest of the evening was total non communication.
I feel constantly accused of being either negligent and crap at domestic tasks or too controlling of the children. I have now offered husband by email that i will go away and leave the children entirely with him for weekends of his choice and even christmas if he wants as I am not controlling the children or stopping him see them. I have also said i will put the dishwasher on every single morning irrespective of how full it is (it gets quite full with childrens lunchboxes etc after work so although empty in the morning suddenly full early evening). Dont know what else to do. Husband does not communicate with me or respond to any of my suggestions. He just shouts and accuses me of being over controlling feels like i am walking on a precipice

tomverlaine - many of us here recognise exactly how the OP feels (I've had the dishwasher row many times)- she's not reading too much into his anger, she has become fearful because of how he frequently responds with anger to situations such as these.

OP - read the Lundy book.

It's not you, it's him.

He sounds not very nice at all.

tomverlaine, that sort of person doesn't then say 'But you are controlling' to his DP because she is then going to put the dcs in bed. Or they wouldn't intervene when their partner is putting the dcs in bed. They would just carry on the night as if everything was fine - which it would be for them.

redblue
he gets emotional if my 3yr daughter is not affectionate with him and implies it is my influence
There are a lot of issue imo with his statement.
One, he can not expect his dcs to love him. He should be loving them unconditionally but to expect that they will always love like him and be affectionate is totally unrealistic. As someone said, just wait until they are toddlers (and older, 'that's not fair' and 'I don't like you' are fav phrases for my 6yo atm...).
He also can not put that responsability onto someone else. His relationship with his dcs are his responsability not yours.
or is it that he is actually putting all responsability of what is going wrong onto you (the dcs not been affectionate, the dishwasher being too full etc...) and wants to take all the credit for things that go well (He is the only one who is doing some HW etc...).
Or that he actually has no trust and thinks the worst from you (ie she is saying bad things about me to the dcs)??

TBH, I don't think this relationship should continue ion these conditions. I am not saying 'Leave him' but you really need to have a good look at your relationship. And you need things to change.

TravellerForEver how can i initiate change if he wont discuss it?

You can change how you behave/react to him - you can't change him.

Firstly, I have been there. My husband used to accuse me of stuff. I am still with him now and he has changed for the better. He was unhappy, in a depression and just couldn't connect to me. We are much happier now.

So, as I said, he used to do this too. He used to blame me for mood changes (that used to be: say something bad in the morning like 'please put your socks in the basket', get a whole day of non-communication), for not washing up, for doing nothing all day despite not pulling his weight himself. I used to care about it, but some day I decided no longer. One can be angry after a genuine argument but not a whole day. So I left any of those things unanswered, ignored them, shrugged my shoulders. If he used to really shout I used to say, 'I am not impressed, stop acting like a child. If 50% of this family (we have no children yet) does nothing, what do you expect?'

I once read somewhere that grown people are like children: praise them for good behaviour and ignore bad. I tried it for a while and he indeed calmed down. It also created some mirth on my side ;).

After a while things stopped. I believe he had climbed out of his depression then.

However, I think you need to stop and think. Running away is all fine, but do you want that? Is he really the whole time like this or only on working days?
He also clearly has an issue with his view of parents/relationships. You need to talk to him and make him understand that firstly snapping at such a trivial thing is not on, both his and your sake. How can he still be happy in general if he snaps at silly little things? If he understands this, he may start to wonder at the reason why he does this.
He also needs to understand that his children are not going to stop loving him because he is less in their lives than you. If he wants to be more in their daily lives, then that he takes another job. Otherwise, if he is insecure about his relationship with his children (why would he otherwise get upset at his 3-year old?), then organise some quality time with daddy every week. Maybe alternate evening putting DCs to bed? That might be an option. At least they won't get used to you alone.
Oh and quality time together. You can't form a family if you don't talk for 3 years.

I just wanted to offer a possible other explanation for his behaviour. They don't all do it out of maliciousness.

kikibo

Am glad that your relationship is on more of an even keel but in the OPs case, her H is not admitting that he is doing anything at all wrong here and just as importantly does not want to discuss anything.

I argue that redblue's H is also acting like this because he can and enjoys projecting onto her. This is all about power and control. This man as well does not seem very interested in them either as a couple or as a family unit.

OP cannot change him but she can change how she reacts to him.

i do recognise that but I also think it is too easy to jump down the abuse route - its a vicious circle- just because he gets angry at stuff- doesn't necessarily mean he is abusive - if he doesn't know how it makes the OP feel is he being abusive?

I think the children thing is a separate issue - if he hadn't got involved it could have been read as he shouts at me about the housekeeping and then doesn't even help with the children

@AttilaTheMeerkat:

I realise he doesn't want to discuss anything, my H neither at that point, it had to filter through slowly that such behaviour was not normal. That a man does not treat his wife that way, but also that such behaviour is present in people who are not completely right up there...

I tend to go with try something first and if you don't succeed, try some more and if you are really satisfied that you have tried absolutely everything, you are free to walk away.

What is the OP's priority?
Was your H a nice man when you met or not? When did that change? Is there a clear point in time or has it come on slowly? Most abusers start introducing things slowly and it is not clearly definable when. Otherwise they would be spotted as abusers and that's not what they want. If there is something else in the case the point in time is clear.

I share Tomverlaine's thoughts on that one.

And besides, say he is not an abuser, but just deeply unhappy, what will happen if OP leaves? Things will never be right again. Was that fair on both partners?

Kikibo thanks for your comments it is helpful to have some suggestions
a couple of things which probably dont change anything but anyway

• if he is shouting in the kitchen (loud enough to hear in the bedroom) the right thing to do is just ignore it and stay in the bedroom and not raise the issue of the dishwasher? i guess it is my nervousness about my failure to do things which makes me go into the kitchen when he is yelling loudly and say "leave it leave it i will do it later" (and he never does leave it)
• he is interested in the family unit i think but only on his terms, he hates having discussions with me about how i feel about anything
• ever since both babies were born apart from the few days i was in hospital to have baby 2 i have done bathtime every single night without exception, he then helps with giving one of them milk and might tell one of them a story but not always, sometimes he tells a "quick" story because he is too tired and sometimes my daughter asks to see him but he doesnt bother going in because he says she takes advantage and wants him there all night. then he gets hurt if she is "cross" with him (well as cross as a 3 year old can be!) On the one hand i am happy with this because i genuinely love seeing them at bathtime, on the other hand there is always the risk he might accuse me of being too controlling. he will "dip" into the bathroom to say hello to them but if either is too demanding and asks for a story etc he will try to keep it short and get out asap (ie their request is what pushes him away and this is the same with me)
• if i ask him for something a lot of the time i feel like he thinks i am a pain in the arse so i try not to ask - this bit is probably my low self esteem

kikibo maybe the answer is in my hands - that it is incumbant on me to start ignoring the bad behaviour and not dwelling on it or reacting to it

Fucking hell, what do you get out of this relationship?

If DP shouted at me about the dishwasher like that, I wouldn't offer to do it myself - I'd tell him I was busy with the kids and to bloody well do it himself!

You have the right to feel comfortable in your own home - no one should make you feel nervous and intimidated.

he gets hurt because his 3 year old gets cross?

"sometimes my daughter asks to see him but he doesnt bother going in because he says she takes advantage and wants him there all night. then he gets hurt if she is "cross" with him (well as cross as a 3 year old can be!) "

read that over and over and see how it sounds - your H is really sad. ok he suffered his upbringing - but he has to realise that and get help. he has to learn to be an adult and a parent.

he is damaging your DC. he cant deal wtih their emotions.
this will only get worse.

go see a counsellor yourself,
talk to womens aid on the phone for a chat .

read the book lundy bancroft

stop apologising to him; stop telling him you will do better next time eg "do the dishwasher every day" or whatever - you have no need to apologize.

redblue
I think there is a lot in not answering 'requests' fom him, especially when he is yelling like this.
I also think that, if one of your dcs was talking to you like this, you wouldn't run to do it. Ditto for a friend, a co-worker or any other family member. I would expect from him not to be rude.

Re 'branding abuse' I think this is not the issue. Whether the OP's H is abusive or not doesn't really matter actually. What matters is whether the behaviour is hurtful or not and it clearly is. Therefore something has to change and it could be that both parties have to change (It is true that some people can be very good at take the worst out of each other or that one person behaviour feeds the insecurities of the other and so on).
However, it can only happen if both parties are willing to change, which seems to have the case with you kikibo. You made some changes in your behaviour, your H realized something was wrong, got some self esteem back or whatever else that hapened at the time and you end up with a more balanced relationship.
Sometimes, however, people don't want to change or are not in the right place to change. And I am not talking just about abusers here. Genuinely nice but 'fucked up' people would be in here too. Knowing that 'one day' they could change might not be an icentice enough to stay in that sort of relationship.

redblue, if your H doesn't want to talk (and my H is exactely like this so i really see where you are coming from), then the only thing you can do is to look after yourself so that you are in a situation where you know you have handle the situation the best you could. You would also know what you think is acceptable (being grumpy) and isn't (constant criticisism). If this shall pass or if this is a feature.
I have also noticed that he doesn't quite want to be involved with the dcs unless it is on his terms (doesn't like being asked 'too much' even by his own dcs). Is there anything he is happy to do that isn't for himself but only for the benefit of someone else?

cestlavielife you are right
thanks for posting
it is best if i say nothing when he kicks off i think
i fear for my daughter, she is not stupid and it is not long now till she starts to understand more. (i never talk to her about it)

^ok he suffered his upbringing - but he has to realise that and get help. he has to learn to be an adult and a parent.

he is damaging your DC. he cant deal wtih their emotions.
this will only get worse.^

OP my H didn't have a nice upbringing. Think victorian times type of upbringing.
He didn't want to see that his behviour was wrong, especially regarding the dcs. He still struggles to accept he has to take some responsability for the way the dcs behave (the bad and the good).
The problem is we now have an 8yo with very low self esteem and that is causing me quite some worry.
But he still doesn't to acknoledghe that because 'if he was angry that's dc1 fault as he didn't behave properly' not 'my child is behaving like any 8yo. I am here to parent him and therefore I do need to control my anger/emotions which are my ressponsability and not anybodyelse's'.

xpost Op.

Go and have counselling. Seriously it has been an eye opener for me and did so much good for my self esteem and self confidence.

"I have also noticed that he doesn't quite want to be involved with the dcs unless it is on his terms (doesn't like being asked 'too much' even by his own dcs). Is there anything he is happy to do that isn't for himself but only for the benefit of someone else?"

I think but I dont know (he would never discuss it of course) that it all stems from the fact that his mother left his father for another man when husband was about 13 yrs, husbands father was effectively ostracised (deliberately or not i dont know) by mother and children, husbands father had a heart attack and had limited success in keeping in touch with his two children. My husband kind of despises his father i guess because he felt sorry for him at some point and maybe also because he felt let down by him not being there. Husband has always hated with fury any female partners his father has, fueled partly by his mother's own bitching about her ex husbands new partners (go figure? i dont really want to it is such a can of worms)

Anyway in summary, it is almost like he is trying to be the most popular parent to guard against me somehow excluding him from his role as father. It breaks my heart to say when my daughter now 3 was barely older than 1 years old with just a few words to her language skills my husband used to ask her what she wanted to do at weekends (!!!!) and we would all do that (rather than agree with me what we should do) i kind of got used to that and went along with it although it hurt me
oh god
it all feels out of my hands

he is trying to be the most popular parent to guard against me somehow excluding him from his role as father

If he wants the title of father of the year and get 'brownies' point from his dcs, the best he could do would be doing what you are doing ie giving them a bath, reading to them in the evening etc... Do yu think he would like a role where he would be more involved?
Would you be happy with it (taking turns for eg for bath, bedtime story etc...)?
Would he be able to 'cope' with it?

TravellerForEver
very valid question
i have never asked him but i am pretty much certain he always wants me to do bath routine bedtime etc
He is tired after work and wants that half an hour to sit and have a drink & watch a bit of tv
I sincerely dont mind this. I just dont know whether his contentment with this division of roles is partly because he feels more in control with me doing it (which is fine provided it does not involve shouting loudly if i have forgotten to put the dishwashwer on whilst i am putting the little ones to bed)
If i offered for him to do bathtime i am not sure whether he woudl see that as me making moves to up and leave the family home or rock the boat. hardly

But you could propose him to do it. You could present it as a way for him to get closer to his dcs as you know it is so important for him.
You could tell him it is important for you too that he has a good relationship with his dcs.
And see how it goes.

TBH you shouldn't be worried to 'rock the boat'. You should feel secure in your relationship so that you can actually express an opinion or a proposal wo feeing under threat.

While I'm all for learning how we can change ourselves for the better, I think it's a slippery slope in the OP's situation. The reality is, his behaviour could easily be classified as emotional abuse, whether he is conscious of this himself or not.

The OP could end up in the situation that many of us here have been in - constantly trying to modify our behaviour in order not to trigger an outburst of verbal/emotional abuse. This is what gives rise to that horrible feeling of 'walking on eggshells'.

Having said that, therapy is helping me change the way I now react compared to how I used to do in the past. But this has come through understanding that I actually deserve to be treated well. That I deserve support from dh, and that I have the right to my own feelings.
I would be very concerned that adopting some sort of 'behaviour modification' programme will actually push more responsibility onto the OP, for her husband's behaviour.

There seems to be a lot of angst here over something as trivial and easily sorted as a dishwasher.

Why not have a better routine. Load the dishwasher at night after you have eaten. Switch it on and then relax. If there is anything that doesnt fit in there, wash it in the sink and leave to dry on the draining board.

Lunch boxes can be washed in seconds in a bowl of soapy water as soon as you get in from picking the kids up. While cooking dinner have a bowl of hot soapy water so that any pans/bowls can be washed as they are emptied.

I know that will not solve all the problems, but as the dishwasher seems to kick off a lot of the current mood, it might be a start.

Have you not read the thread squeakytoy? If it was not the dishwasher it would be the washing machine or the tidiness of the house or the grocery shopping.

The OP works full time with two children under the age of 4 where she does 100% of pick ups and drop offs and it seems 99% of the child care and home maintenance responsibility.

The OPs DH appears to want to kick off and if it were not the dishwasher it would be something else so it is therefore irrelevant how she washes out the pots and pans and lunch boxes, even if it only took seconds extra.

exactly squeaky - the op'sH got overly angry over a dishwasher. his reaction was way ott - but op has said it was typical reaction.

but when you have experienced the anger-over-a-dishwasher (or other household thing) it is easy to understand how the op feels...