Please help me cope with my mother. Long, sorry.

[BaronessOrczy]

feel really bad posting this but I need some advice on how to deal with my mum.

DP and I got engaged three weeks ago, and we're ridiculously happy. My parents haven't said congratulations, haven't bought us a card (apparently mum can't find one which is 'appropriate' ) and have, by and large, been dismissive of it as a happy occasion. I spent the morning after our engagement crying, apologising to DP for them, and having ludicrously convoluted ideas about how to elope. His mother and various family and friends are very pleased, have sent cards and some very unexpected presents, flowers etc, which is lovely and much much appreciated. I'm actually very traditional and want to get married close to home in a church - we booked this yesterday and I'm really happy with it, as is DP.

That's not to say it's not an occasion to them, it is, and they have thrown themselves into wedding planning. But because it is the right thing to do, and it's a control issue, not because they are happy about it IYSWIM? They had MIL over for dinner and didn't mention it til I bought it up, we all went out for lunch with my SILs parents and they were the ones who raised their glasses to us and were all gushy about it - my parents sat there and tuned out of it. When I looked at Dad he begrudingly said 'yes yes' when asked if he was excited. In a very flat way.

Because of the control thing (and I fully recognise it is about that) my DM keeps overstepping boundaries - she told me not to tell anyone about the plans as they are no-one else's business, and then emailed various family members and told them, for example. When I told her I wasn't happy about this and I'd wanted to tell my brother the details, she sucked lemons and made out like she was just trying to help, she didn't mean to cause any fuss, and so on. I practically ended up apologising to her for upsetting her! Guilt tripping is her speciality.

She's caused a lot of upset to me over the years, she's almost a figure of fun to my friends, none of whom believed me about her antics until they saw her in action. She's not an awful woman, of course she's not, if you met her you'd think she was conservative and nice ... If you were to say to my mum her behaviour is out of order or pull her up on it she'd be shocked. She thinks we have a lovely relationship, just as she thinks she does with my SIL. SIL and I would both say we have a difficult relationship with her. I think I should join the Stately Homes thread tbh.

She's told my brother that we'll be honeymooning in Europe so that we can all have a holiday (DB and SIL live in New Zealand so coming over is a big deal for all of us to spend time together) and that they will come too!!

I know my brother is her favourite and I hope to god I don't do to my kids what she has done to me. She's brilliant at making me feel an inch tall, her reaction to me phoning to say we were getting married was to tell me to lose weight.

DP will support me whatever, for an example after last week's debacle over my dress he said we'd take the money out of savings and pay for it ourselves. Mum doesn't like what I want, she thinks it looks 'unsuitable and fussy and not relaxed and I thought you wanted a relaxed wedding' - grrrr - it's a copy of a Grace Kelly dress, it's a bit different but it's certainly not unsuitable or fussy! We ended up with her telling me I was ungrateful and being difficult and aggressive - this is her stock answer when I disagree with her on anything. MIL and best friend think it is lovely and will really suit me and is very elegant. The issue is that it isn't really about the dress, it's about control, it's because I want something she doesn't want ISWIM?

Saying 'I want' makes me sound entitled and honestly I'm not, we're watching the pennies tightly to be able to have the number of people we'd like there, I really really don't mean to be bridezillaish about it, I'd just like organising the day to be as much fun as the day itself - I've organised plenty of events in my time, I'm used to it and enjoy it, so it's not like I'm operating completely out of my comfort zone or am about to dive off in completely the wrong direction.

But I suppose what I'm worried about is whether or not I'll have a relationship left with my mum at the end of it all. DP is worried that she will stress me out so much I won't enjoy any of it. And that he'll spend the next few months calming me down and we won't enjoy being engaged.

I don't know what I"m asking of you all really. I've got upset typing this out - I just need some coping strategies. Counting to ten doesn't work any more. I don't want her to ruin choosing my dress or the flowers like she did my engagement.

It all sounds a bit stupid, really. Sorry.

You're a Stately Homer all right.

Stately Homes wisdom in a nutshell:

Your feelings of hurt are totally valid.

Accept that you cannot change her.

Accept that she is unable to acknowledge your feelings, or to become the mother you long for.

Grieve the loss of the nurturing childhood you should have had, and learn to nurture yourself and fill the gaps in your self-esteem left by your upbringing.
Detach yourself emotionally: if you cease expecting love, support, and reasonable behaviour from her, it will stop hurting so much when those things are not forthcoming.

And boundaries, boundaries, boundaries: get over your feelings of fear, obligation and guilt towards her and start setting those boundaries out and enforcing them, over and over until the situation becomes tolerable.

For example: HELL no she is not coming on your honeymoon.

Practice key phrases:

"That isn't convenient, mother".

"Mother, you've just told me to lose weight for my wedding. That makes me feel an inch tall. Don't do that.".

"I hear that you're upset, but I need x".

"No."

is she paying for any of this wedding?, if not i would just not talk about it with her, tell her everything is under control, that you and df are happy with the arrangements you are making and that all will be revealed on the day!

ItsMe - that's just made me burst into tears. My feelings are valid, I'm not bonkers. thank you, I will have a good read.

(My father is lovely by the way, he does tick her off and mediate.)

Jesus - they are paying majority, we are contributing, his mother is contributing

baroness,

Do you actually want a relationship with someone like this?. These people will continue to override you and tell you how to behave in the longer term as well. You would not tolerate this from a friend; your mother and father really no different. Emotionally unhealthy family members who want to control and overrule everyone else are a toxic PITA and to be avoided at all costs.

Abusive people as well do seem very plausible to those in the outside world; am not surprised to see that your friends reacted as they did particularly till they themselves saw her in action ( and likely though thank god I don't have a hypercritical overbearing controlling narcissistic mother like Baroness).

No its not at all stupid and I would also suggest you visit the Stately Homes thread on these pages. You have been very perceptive in seeing this for what it really is - you are her scapegoat whilst your brother is golden child (also a role not without price).

As for coping strategies I would limit all contact with your parents as of now; toxic parents more often than not become toxic grandparents as well.

Keep setting boundaries for your own sake; its your honeymoon as well and you should both go where you please. You keep saying NO ad neuseum to such people. She is not entitled to dictate your dress, where you honeymoon and certainly should not go with you!. Infact she is not entitled to dictate any aspect of your life to you.

I would look into having some counselling solely for yourself re your relationship with your Mother. BACP are good and they won't charge the earth. Also read "If you had controlling parents" written by Dr Dan Neuharth.

Your Mother is the main instigator behind all this dysfunction (I can only imagine her own early life was poor in that her own parents were controlling/abusive although this is no justification for her actions now) and your Dad (as often happens in these types of dysfunction) acts as a bystander out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

It is YOUR day, not hers

Great that she is helping with cost but not if it has strings attached

Agree with posts about it being her problem not yours

Baroness - congratulations to you and DP! I'm so sorry your mother is behaving like this. She sounds a lot like my mother so I feel your pain! My sister is going through something similar to you right now - she phoned home a couple of weeks ago to tell my mum that her landlady was selling up and that she was going to be moving in with her DP. There was silence on the phone, followed by 'why is your landlady selling up?' from my mum My sister is so hurt by it as I can tell you are by your mum's behaviour.

As ItsMe said, your feeling are valid. This is not silly, it's very upsetting and hurtful behaviour and she is completely in the wrong. My sister's feeling is that our mum is eaten up with jealously at her happiness and I think she's completely right. Do you think that's what's going on with your mum? If it is, please know that it is 100% her problem, and there is no way you should feel guilty about your happiness. You hit the nail on the head when you said it's not about the dress or anything else, it's just about control. She will do whatever she needs to stick a pin in your bubble of happiness and celebration.

I recommend the Stately Homes thread and if you feel like it, google 'Narcissistic Personality Disorder' - it's what both my parents have and you may see some traits in your mum and dad too. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this. Keep posting x

Err....are you my sister?? I got married last year and I could almost tick off point by point the various things in your post. My mother was a nightmare and it was only by being laid back to the point of being horizontal over nearly every single wedding detail that we were even speaking by the end. And then a few months later she had the gall to tell me how stressed she was on the day, even while saying she didn't see why anyone would care about my wedding. Even the first thing she said to me was that I would have to lose weight as I was going to be standing up in front of all the family and "they" didn't want to see a huge fat arse in a dress (none of "them" care, is all in her head).

I had to put up with it though as my parents were paying for everything. When we tried to have a cake and punch reception - they swooped in and paid for a full evening do, so I had to then let her have veto power over almost everything. She even had my dress made for me and it arrived sight unseen (luckily I liked it very much).

Her reaction to any of the key phrases above would have been to tell me that everyone else in my life is lying to me, she's the only one who will ever tell me the truth, to say "what do I have to gain by telling you you're overweight, I don't like arguments either you know", etc etc.

She did have control over me though, because she was holding the purse strings, so I tried to attain a state of zen calm and indifference (repeating to myself that it's only a wedding, any flowers are better than no flowers, etc). I did enjoy my wedding in the end though a lot of the details were as much of a surprise to me as they were to my guests - in fact DH and I had never even met some of the guests!! At least all our friends and family were there and thought it was hilarious (and that she was nuts).

Now I'm about to have a baby and I fear I will not be able to be as laid back about PFB as I was about the wedding...I foresee clashes in future!!

Literally the only two things that help, to this day, are DH kicking me under the table/clearing his throat/gripping my elbow meaningfully when he sees me start rising to her ridiculousness - and also, replacing everything she says about me with the word "I". Eg: "you need to lose weight so family doesn't think you're fat" = "I need to lose weight so the family doesn't think I'm fat", "you need to stop working at your job you love and do yyy" = "I wish I was doing yyy" etc etc. That helps me to think that it's not about me, and enables me to pity and feel sorry for her, which takes some of her power away iyswim.

my love, is the big wedding so important? - do you really have to have an expensive one? could you and df just call a halt to it all and have a small, more intimate do and pay for it yourselves? - that way, you call the shots and get to have what you want, without the tears and drama

fwiw, im the 'mother of the bride' next year, im enjoying it all tremendously but i can honestly say the only tears we have had so far have been down to my wonderful dd and her excitement over it all, we have laughed and teased each other, been in hoots over daft ideas, never never would i want her to feel like you do!, oh, and im paying for the majority of the wedding! (and we have both got to diet, there are ways of supporting each other without nastiness!)

Attilla, yes, I do want a relationship with her. I love her but I don't always like her. I have worked hard to distance myself ever since my DB got engaged and she told a friend that she's finally getting the daughter she's always wanted. Her behaviour in general to me around his wedding three years ago was so difficult that I've backed off quite a lot since then.

Thank you for the book recommendation, I'll pick that up. I'm thinking about counselling but I'm not really sure it will do anything?

As is quite often said on the stately homes thread-"Are you my sister?"!!! You are not alone! She sounds just like my mother-that comment about losing weight pinged through me when I read it! And it's not you, it's her.

Congratulations on your exciting news too of course.

Someone on the SH thread gave me some useful "come backs", things like "Gosh Mother, did you mean to say that out loud, it's so rude?" -said in as bright and breezy a manner as you can muster!

One of the best bits of advice I've had I suppose, is DETACH DETACH DETACH!

Easier said than done I know, but I have been able to do it in small ways here and there and it has helped me.

Keep talking to everyone on here, it makes it easier and you really start to appreciate that you're not the mad one.

oh missed what you said Tyelperion! doh!

Baroness, I have been seeing a psychotherapist for 2 years and it's helping me more than I can say. Counselling/therapy won't change your mum, but it will help you to understand why she behaves the way she does and even more importantly, will help you to change how you feel and how you react to her. It feels so good to take back control! If you're even slightly interested in counselling, I would recommend it so highly. You could stop at any time if you felt it wasn't for you.

Your OP brings back some, erm, interesting memories of my wedding.

I urge you to try to nip this in the bud now. I ended up on my wedding day exhausted from my mum's temper tantrums, and spent the reception on tenterhooks nervous she'd blow again. It was not my ideal day (though of course in many ways lovely).

Your parents both sound as if they have issues with you growing up, and the wedding is a symbol of that. Your mum getting over-involved in your plans is infantalizing you. I would be straight with her, and say it's very understandable that she wants to help - but it is yours and your DPs responsibility. You do not have to keep compromising and conceding to her. That advice is often given out with weddings, because of the whole 'bridezilla' stereotype. But it's not applicable here. It sounds as if she is playing manipulative games, and very tiring for you.

Think about it this way: you are only going to get married once. Your parents should, at least this once, be prepared to treat your wants and needs as important. If you mum won't do this, detach. You can do it.

Btw, congratulations.

Oh, Baroness, what an awful situation to be in! I really feel for you as my mother behaved exactly the same way over my wedding 3 years ago. She was vile on the night we announced our engagement (said nobody was interested, my ring was vulgar, etc) and then was dictatorial over everything when it came to the wedding. If she wasn't going to get her own way on something she'd say she wasn't going to come to the wedding - even on the point of having all her friends at my hen do!!!! Each time I thought she was being difficult on something I didn't care about I'd let her win and think I could save my victories for things that mattered but it didn't work out that way. I can honestly say it was the most stressful experience of my entire life!

In the end we backed down one time too many and DH and I no longer were willing to be dictated to (when we were paying the lions share, their contribution was about 25% of the demands and therefore gave them control) so we cancelled the lot and got married with a small number of friends and family there having invited them for my birthday. It was a beautiful day and, although it wasn't what I wanted in the first place, it was the perfect wedding for me.

After the wedding my mother became even more unreasonable and I ended up having a breakdown. I was off work for 6 months, before returning part time and eventually giving up because my confidence was shot. It's only now, 3 years later, after lots of talking therapy that I no longer feel guilty about what I did. My mother still hasn't forgiven me and I haven't had any contact with her since May this year. Why I need to be forgiven for getting married is beyond me!

You're allowed to say "I want" when it comes to your wedding! Really it should be nothing to do with your mother - I now understand that after extensive therapy. Why does she have opinions on your dress? Why does she think she should control anything? She is being entirely unreasonable.

Sorry for telling all of my story - I know it isn't about me - I just wanted you to know that others have been through similar dramas and stood up to the monster of a controlling mother. You have your DF to support you, so do what you want. Pay from savings and do it your way. You'll (hopefully) only get one wedding, don't let your mother make it all about her!

Clearly peppermint you are my sister too

At its worst, DH said I had a choice - either counselling, or a trip to stay with my godmother for the weekend. Godmother and mother have been best friends since they were 14 and she sees my mother with clear eyes and knows just what she's like. She was the one who gave me the tip about switching "you" into "I" in each of my mother's statements and criticisms.

I think if I didn't have someone like my godmother counselling would have been amazing though. Just sitting in a cafe pouring it all out was cathartic, so I can imagine a trained counsellor would be even better.

Oh, gosh, so many more replies!

Josie, thank you! That is so the sort of reaction my mum gives too, I'm sorry you and your sister also have to deal with it - so I'm not alone (that in itself makes me feel better). I've shied away from googling NPD in the past, but perhaps I should try and see. It's almost like if it has a name then I have to deal with it if that makes sense? There's nothing going on with her that I know of, they have no money worries, a good marriage (unless I'm completely blind), she had a fulfilling career, nice house - in fact, they're on holiday right now having a great time with friends in the sun. So I don't think it's jealousy.

Tyel, I don't think I am as I don't have a sister, but maybe a sister in spirit?! OMG re your dress - my mum wouldn't go that far. And we have drawn up the guest list - we've been fair on split I think, they've in fact taken a couple of people off. They have been difficult about our friends though we have pushed through as our contribution covers it. And your 'I' tactic I will definitely try.

Jesus - it's nothing fancy, and it's on a very tight budget - as far as we're concerned, it's about the vows we take in front of friends and family, the rest is just window dressing, the main thing is to have people there we care about and who care about us. I'm not bothered about having classic cars or a designer dress. I wish my mum could be like you about it. Instead a couple of my friends are coming with me to try on dresses and talk about ideas. She's all about being serious with it.

Oh - just remembered something which might make you all laugh - I'm studying at the moment (PT whilst working) and when DP asked for my parent's blessing they told him he wasn't to propose til I'd finished my course. He's ignored them (but did take advice from my brother as he didn't want to cause a huge family rift). That's bonkers, right?

Thinking some more about your apologetic tone in your OP ... you know, I think the problem is, we are so used to that bridezilla stereotype. The backlash against that phrase 'it's your day' came about because some people (not many in reality, I think) genuinely are pretty spoilt and entitled. But you're not! Though I suspect your mum, by the sound, manipulates you into thinking so. I'm afraid self-centred people tend to think anyone else is being spoilt for not pandering to that self-centredness.

So, that backlash against 'its your day' isn't really meant for you. And in fact, I honestly think any normal parent would feel that this day is a special day for you. They would naturally expect you to be the centre of attention. So you don't have to be apologetic for saying 'I want', you really don't!

Peppermint - thank you - how did your mum respond when you said things like that though? I've never quite dared! I'm 32, have my own business and am quite forthright in other areas of my life, but standing up to her makes me feel dreadful. The guilt which results doesn't make it worthwhile IYSWIM?

Will think seriously about therapy, thanks Josie.

Anon, you're right, it IS tiring. and thank you for your advice, i need to think about that one.

AFish - wow, well done you for standing up to her. I have got what I wanted in terms of venue and the church, and she can't get her hands on the ceremony, the vicar has already said (with a knowing glint in his eye) that all communication must come through us. I'll work my way towards the other stuff which is important to us - it's interesting what you said about conceding on small stuff not working for you, that's the approach I was going to take! Maybe I'll rethink.

Hi baroness

re your comments (in quote marks):-

"Attilla, yes, I do want a relationship with her"

I would ask why that is?. Fear. obligation, guilt - the FOG that many adult children of toxic parents have.

"I love her but I don't always like her"

What's there to like about this woman exactly?. Your mother is to my mind a narcissist who sees you primarily as an extension of her to boss and rule over.

They are also not above trying to bend your man to their will; their behaviour re the proposal was vile and controlling (again). As mentioned before they will up the ante even more if/when you have children; they will try and buy the kids' affections, be totally disinterested or use them to get back at what they see as your "poor parenting skills.

Thanks Anon, perhaps I should become a bit more bridezillaish after all!

(Children are to be invited BTW, I know this will be a pertinent fact, this is MN after all!)

Baroness

Maladjusted, personality disordered behaviour like your mother displays usually starts in childhood, do you have any idea what sort of childhood she had?. This all started way back.

BTW it is NOT (repeat ad nauseum) NOT your fault she is like this; her own family likely did that to her. I feel for both you and your sibling actually; the golden child role is also not without price.

Oh Baroness, she doesn't like it of course and it sometimes causes her to go apoplectic with rage but hell-up who cares??!! (yay I think I'm detaching!!). She then berates me for being rude and answering back! I am 43. Enough said.

It's all about keeping the power and control and not relinquishing it to our darling darling mothers. I do like the "I" thing too Tyelperion(or sister)...Might try that.

Just to add, a few people have used the word 'tiring' to describe parental controlling behaviour. I find my parents absolutely exhausting, totally physically draining. They take up so much space in my head and thinking about past hurts/processing current hurt/wondering what will come next really does wear me down. So don't feel bad for being consumed by this Baroness (or anyone else!) - it's bloody hard work.

Wrote long reply and computer ate it!

I want a relationship with her because she's my mum - she can be lovely and fun and kind and interesting and thoughtful. I just want her without the snipy comments and funny looks and constant hoisting of judgy pants and feeling I should be richer / thinner / more adventurous / louder / quieter / 'better' in some indefinable way.

I only knew my grandmother, who was lovely to me, we were very close. She grew up in a normal home as far as I know, GM went back to work when she was ten, she was an only child (although an evacuee from London came to live with them for 4 years and is still a very good family friend). When Mum had my brother she was very poorly and in hospital for a couple of months - don't know what with - and my GM moved in to look after me. GM told me when I was small that when Mum came home with my brother I didn't want to see her and wanted to stay with Granny.

When GM died when I was 14 she left me a small amount of money. I only 'got' this money when I bought a house at 26 (as far as I know there were no conditions to it in the will and I should have had it at 18) and in fact got the rest of it earlier this year. According to my mother GM didn't want to leave my brother any money so Mum persuaded her to treat us equally. In fact, I'm remembering stuff now. I was my GM favourite and she would do things like buying me a towel on holiday and 'forgetting' to get my brother one so my Dad would go back to get him one so we both had one IYSWIM. I guess it's the other way round and not as extreme as what my mum does re me and my brother? Maybe she's reacting to the way GM was with me and my brother?

Mum is very keen on keeping things secret and on a 'need to know' basis - is this paranoia or control again? I guess it is. there are various pieces of jewellry / furniture which my parents have which have been left to either me or my brother - neither of us know which ones they are and if we ask then we're told we'll find out in due course (ie when my parents are no longer needing them!)

Just thinking that it's not my fault is very liberating, you know.

Peppermint - oh, I'm so with you on the being rude and answering back!! I'm 32...