Please help me cope with my mother. Long, sorry.

[BaronessOrczy]

feel really bad posting this but I need some advice on how to deal with my mum.

DP and I got engaged three weeks ago, and we're ridiculously happy. My parents haven't said congratulations, haven't bought us a card (apparently mum can't find one which is 'appropriate' ) and have, by and large, been dismissive of it as a happy occasion. I spent the morning after our engagement crying, apologising to DP for them, and having ludicrously convoluted ideas about how to elope. His mother and various family and friends are very pleased, have sent cards and some very unexpected presents, flowers etc, which is lovely and much much appreciated. I'm actually very traditional and want to get married close to home in a church - we booked this yesterday and I'm really happy with it, as is DP.

That's not to say it's not an occasion to them, it is, and they have thrown themselves into wedding planning. But because it is the right thing to do, and it's a control issue, not because they are happy about it IYSWIM? They had MIL over for dinner and didn't mention it til I bought it up, we all went out for lunch with my SILs parents and they were the ones who raised their glasses to us and were all gushy about it - my parents sat there and tuned out of it. When I looked at Dad he begrudingly said 'yes yes' when asked if he was excited. In a very flat way.

Because of the control thing (and I fully recognise it is about that) my DM keeps overstepping boundaries - she told me not to tell anyone about the plans as they are no-one else's business, and then emailed various family members and told them, for example. When I told her I wasn't happy about this and I'd wanted to tell my brother the details, she sucked lemons and made out like she was just trying to help, she didn't mean to cause any fuss, and so on. I practically ended up apologising to her for upsetting her! Guilt tripping is her speciality.

She's caused a lot of upset to me over the years, she's almost a figure of fun to my friends, none of whom believed me about her antics until they saw her in action. She's not an awful woman, of course she's not, if you met her you'd think she was conservative and nice ... If you were to say to my mum her behaviour is out of order or pull her up on it she'd be shocked. She thinks we have a lovely relationship, just as she thinks she does with my SIL. SIL and I would both say we have a difficult relationship with her. I think I should join the Stately Homes thread tbh.

She's told my brother that we'll be honeymooning in Europe so that we can all have a holiday (DB and SIL live in New Zealand so coming over is a big deal for all of us to spend time together) and that they will come too!!

I know my brother is her favourite and I hope to god I don't do to my kids what she has done to me. She's brilliant at making me feel an inch tall, her reaction to me phoning to say we were getting married was to tell me to lose weight.

DP will support me whatever, for an example after last week's debacle over my dress he said we'd take the money out of savings and pay for it ourselves. Mum doesn't like what I want, she thinks it looks 'unsuitable and fussy and not relaxed and I thought you wanted a relaxed wedding' - grrrr - it's a copy of a Grace Kelly dress, it's a bit different but it's certainly not unsuitable or fussy! We ended up with her telling me I was ungrateful and being difficult and aggressive - this is her stock answer when I disagree with her on anything. MIL and best friend think it is lovely and will really suit me and is very elegant. The issue is that it isn't really about the dress, it's about control, it's because I want something she doesn't want ISWIM?

Saying 'I want' makes me sound entitled and honestly I'm not, we're watching the pennies tightly to be able to have the number of people we'd like there, I really really don't mean to be bridezillaish about it, I'd just like organising the day to be as much fun as the day itself - I've organised plenty of events in my time, I'm used to it and enjoy it, so it's not like I'm operating completely out of my comfort zone or am about to dive off in completely the wrong direction.

But I suppose what I'm worried about is whether or not I'll have a relationship left with my mum at the end of it all. DP is worried that she will stress me out so much I won't enjoy any of it. And that he'll spend the next few months calming me down and we won't enjoy being engaged.

I don't know what I"m asking of you all really. I've got upset typing this out - I just need some coping strategies. Counting to ten doesn't work any more. I don't want her to ruin choosing my dress or the flowers like she did my engagement.

It all sounds a bit stupid, really. Sorry.

You ready for Part Deux?! I've missed chunks out so as not to bore you all but hopefully you'll get the gist.

Last weekend I was bridesmaid at my best friends' wedding. Lovely day. She didn't comment on what I was wearing, how I looked, anything. Was very off with me, and when I was in the loo, she told someone who said how nice I looked that I was still fat but thanks. I am so so hurt by this.

I thought I had a handle on it all. I questioned her behaviour to myself, kept thinking, it's not me, it's her, I've done nothing wrong. I didn't cave into her blatent attempts to be invited over for Sunday dinner, I was cool and calm about the whole thing. Til I was on my own with DP and cried and cried.

On the Sunday afternoon I rang as I had a couple of things to talk to her about. She calmly informed me she had written to the vicar for our wedding as she thought the paperwork should be put in motion. Completely disregarding the fact that I had told her repeatedly that the vicar would deal with it and had said we didn't need to write (and if anyone would write, it would be us). I hit the bloody roof and told her off. You'd have thought I'd started WW3, honestly.

On Saturday I went dress trying on with a friend. Found a lovely one (not The One but a lovely one) and nearly ended up in tears because I realised that she will never say I look lovely. It doesn't matter what I wear. Also that we won't have a fun trying on dresses session - it will be hard work.

Last night she came over with my dad to talk about our wedding. We ended up with me in tears, her shouting, her going on about how a couple of our decisions are 'not appropriate', how we've 'got' to have a certain hymn, how so and so can't be a bridesmaid as they don't like them, how their friends are on the list and our friends should be cut down, and they don't understand why DP doesnt' have more people on the list (this said like they think something is wrong with him - all he's done is be divorced!)

They left and I cried and cried. Skyped with DP who is overseas at the moment and he is furious. Actually, beyond furious. He sees two solutions - cancel the wedding and have it overseas (not an option realistically!) or, and this is the big thing, for us to move. Away from them. Because he has finally opened his eyes to what she is like, he didn't believe it before he heard what she said at the wedding last weekend. He was talking about confronting them but I don't want that.

This morning we had an appointment at a dress place in town. First dress I tried on looked unexpectely nice (not my style at all I'd thought). I said to the assistant that I couldn't believe how thin it made me look, and she laughed and said something along the lines of me having a nice figure I should show off (am a 14/16 but tall so look thinner IYSWIM). She called out to my mum something like 'your daughter looks lovely and slender in this one'. Mum said 'well that would be the first time'.

The assistant gasped, then just looked at me with utter pity in her eyes.

I can't believe I put up with this shit.

Should I just move house? Is that the solution? move to the other end of the country?

Sorry I'm so all over the place - I feel absolutely exhausted. I'm feeling bruised, to be honest.

Hi Baroness,

I feel for you, I really do as I lived many similar things to you in planning our wedding. One of my mum's issues was that I had more of my friends coming to the wedding than she did - she should have more than me (that's her friends, not family, her friends who I had barely met). I know it's a shitty thing to be happening during what should be the happiest time of your life and for that I am so sorry for you. Your mother is being entirely unreasonable and beyond hideous but there are some good things to come out of this - look at how strongly you and your DP are pulling together, and how he is fighting for you!

I think you're right that DP can't confront them, but it's understandable why he wants to. He is watching his future wife become incredibly distressed at her mother's behaviour and wants to protect you! My DH wanted to do the same thing, but I felt that if anything was said it had to come from me. I felt for years that I wouldn't do it, but there was a catalyst this year and I let it be known how I feel about her behaviour and am just coming up to 6 months of not having her in my life.

Moving house is a drastic response, but an understandable one. I would hold fire on doing it if I were you because you don't need to physically move away from your mother - you need to emotionally and a physical move won't work without the emotional one. By all means do move, but make sure you get some closure on the stress and upset your mother causes you. Do you see a counsellor? Mine has worked wonders with my complete despair with the family, and I feel like the cord has finally been severed - I don't go back for more abuse anymore.

Why is it not a realistic option for you to marry overseas? You could also cancel the wedding and do something different in the UK - it doesn't have to be the circus your mother has created as you could do something simple and lovely (I like this idea as it's what we did so I may be biased on the matter). Whatever you do please remember that nothing matters apart from you and your DP standing up and making promises to each other - where you are/what you're wearing etc are just trimmings.

Afish xx

Afish, thank you - I'm having a bit of a cry at your kind words. I'd not thought of it as DP standing up for me, I've always been cross he's not been able to see it before. He said last night that this is all his fault, he's not good enough for me. I told him that was crap.

I'm trying to see it all as trimmings, really I am. I just want to marry him! It will be simple, it won't be formal, it will be what we want, surrounded by family and friends who matter, not her pals from the golf club. It's just such a fight to get it to be like that. I don't want to get married abroad, we talked about it but when it came down to it, I want to be walked down the aisle by my dad, I want my brother there. DP's mum won't travel abroad either and he wants her there. It will be more of a celebration and a party than a formal reception IYSWIM, a tiny village church which limits numbers.

One thing that makes me so sad is that last Saturday there was so much love in the air towards my best friend's new husband from her family. I find it very very hard that DP will never have that from my parents.

If we change tack and say right, 10 people only, or abroad - she'll have won. She'll see it as a hole in the wall wedding that I'm ashamed of doing, and it will go on the long list of supposed misdemenours of mine. I'm so proud of being with DP, he's an amazing guy, and I want to celebrate it in the way he and I want to do it.

If that makes sense?

I don't think moving will help either, I think he was just so frustrated and upset on my behalf last night.

I'm sorry to say, Baroness, but your mother sounds to me like a nasty bully (albeit sometimes). I know you say "she can be lovely and fun and kind and interesting and thoughtful" but I don't think those qualities can cancel out her bad qualities, especially when those bad qualities are obvious to your DP and friends, who she seems not to bother hiding them from. And while you can find ways to speak positively about her, I wonder what she'd say if she was asked to list your positive qualities?

Whatever her issues, and the cause of them - she might well have felt rejected by your behaviour when she eventually came home from hospital after your brother was born - but that behaviour was completely normal in a very young child in those circumstances, and if she's still reacting to that it means she has never thought it through. Perhaps that's because she can only see things from her point of view. But in any case she shouldn't be visiting her past upon your present and future.

As for your thoughts about moving away from her geographically - that's a start in realising that for your sake and your DP's some distance is now unfortunately necessary. Of course you shouldn't actually have to do that, but it's the beginning of the thought process of distancing yourself emotionally, to the point where all the major decisions about the wedding and beyond are ones made solely by you and your DP together.

Counselling is often very helpful in situations like this, and most counsellors will be very familiar with the issues and give you time and space to talk (especially the "taboo" subject of not-very-nice mothers). The Stately Homes threads are a bit daunting to read through, especially when you're feeling particularly stressed - but instead of reading posts, maybe just scroll through and get an idea of the number of different posters there. That would at least tell you how many other Mumsnetters are dealing with similar situations, so would tell you that you're not alone.

This situation does need dealing with, for your sake and your DP's and your future life together. You're on the cusp of that, and that's a bit like getting to the top of the rollercoaster. You and your DP do have choices in how you deal with things. Is there enough time between now and the wedding to take back control with all the consequent fall-out? Or maybe cancel the current wedding plans, get some support/counselling, and re-schedule your (you and DP) event on your (you and DP) terms?

Hi Baronness - I'm so sorry for the anguish this is causing you. I went through similar during the preparations for my wedding. My not-so-nice mother really had her claws out then, as she also did when I was preparing to go to uni, and before that when I was a toddler and learned to say "no."

Basically, these types of controlling, self-absorbed, wounded mothers cannot stand any move towards independence by their children. And, 32 though you may be, a wedding is a symbolic move into adulthood and away from her that she feels a deep need to lash out against - by lashing out at you, putting you down, putting the screws on to prove to her wounded ego that she's still better than you, that she's still in control of you...

It's twisted and hurtful. It's all down to her issues, and her choice of how to behave. You don't need to prove yourself - e.g. when you say you're ''14/16 but tall so look thinner," you're justifying yourself in a way. You really don't need to. You would be lovely at any size, any height, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a mean-spirited soul.

Agree with the others that emotional rather than geographical distance is the solution. And I agree with you that you should have the wedding that you want.

She'll probably keep up her digs. Let her (you can't stop her). But stop reacting to it. She can't make you feel small unless you let her. And you have nothing to feel small about, whatever hurtful words she comes out with.

Enjoy your wedding. There will be love emanating towards you and your DP on the day from the many wonderful friends and family members you have and who love both of you just the way you are.

Oh bloody hell Baroness I am at the comment in the dress shop and equally at contacting the vicar. How awful for you, what a nutcase. I think in these circumstances you've got to grit your teeth and stop hoping that your lovely supportive mother is there under all that bile and if you just say or act a certain way, if you are good enough, then she will be sweet and kind. She never will.

##Sounds siren to warn of cod-psychology to follow##....

...This is all projection isn't it? She is unhappy/feeling bad about herself/not getting married/not young any more etc etc, but the narcissist in her is adept at throwing all that shit on you.

I am trying to see my mother as some random spiteful old woman when she does a number on me-sometimes works, sometimes fails dismally!!! ie detaching is the only way to go, but of course is easier said than done.

I'm glad your DP is on to her. That's a bit of validation right there, confirming it's not you it's her xxx

Hi Baroness, I'm so sorry to read all the horrid things your mum has said. It really isn't right to be the way she is - a mother should be either boosting her children or supportively helping them if they are on the wrong track. Putting them down in public with personal humiliating remarks is not normal or right.

My mum had a go at me for being too fat when pregnant. I was pre-eclamptic. She has never said anything nice about my husband, ever. She said nothing nice about my wedding day and has never made a positive comment about my appearance. She was excessively over-controlling about clothes in my youth. She is over-bearing about how I raise my children.

I keep my contact to a minimum, and have for a long time, because it's not healthy to be treated that way. But it is hard and it's sad having to do it.

I think you should listen very very carefully to your future husband. He sounds like he can see what is happening and he will help you stay safe. You could get married in a register office without any interference. You could put it off. You could move.

I judge my mum against me. If I had a daughter who got married in a register office, I would want to focus on her happiness, not gripe about the wedding. If your mum is more bothered about what she wants than what you want, then something is wrong.

Sorry you're having such a tough time, it's hell. But one word of comfort is you can use all these experiences to guide you as a parent later.

My DB got engaged and she told a friend that she's finally getting the daughter she's always wanted.

I am sorry for your situation OP, I don't really have much to add except that I am so shocked that your mother said the above about you. Trust me, it certainly is not your fault, any mother that could say that is just, well, I am speechless really again

Baroness - yet another one here who can relate to what you say. Crap childhood due to my mother, and I have put up with, and made excuses for, her sneaky, spiteful actions ever since.

What other posters have said about trying for emotional distance strikes a cord with me. Our children are adults now, and as they have become older, my mother has been spiteful and passive-aggressive to them too. I found it hard to contemplate cutting contact with her when I was younger - I'm an only child, get on with my lovely Dad etc. But the last couple of years have seen contact go down to a minimum, simply because I can no longer stomach the feeling of dread when I pick up the phone to ring her, or when I am trying to psych myself up to visit (she lives 5 minutes away). So I now only phone rarely, visit maybe every couple of months, usually for a birthday or anniversary.

Of course, lots of mums would be on the doorstep wondering what was wrong, trying to mend fences. My mum has retaliated by never phoning me either, and if she has to visit, by being extra snipy. My birthday was a few weeks ago, she visited for 10 minutes - her poor excuse being that they were going to the pub for lunch, and that they were late getting round to ours because a neighbour "kept them chatting".

Strangely though, it bothers me less and less as time goes on. I miss my dad lots, but I just cannot keep being a target for her venom.

I think that at times of stress, weddings etc, laughing with your DP about the things she does, might help to diffuse your anger and annoyance at her. She will never be what you want or need - but if you want to retain contact with her for the forseeable future, you need to have an armoury to protect yourself with.

Thank you all, you've all helped.

I will keep posting about this as otherwise I will go quietly bonkers.

Last night I went to bed at 8.30 and just snuggled down with a book. I feel better for some 'me' time, but still very fragile. I keep waking up in the middle of the night worrying about my parents and the way they treat me and DP.

I worry about how I will cope with this when we have children. I am determined to NEVER do this to them. I am trying to cope with it by coming up with some stock phrases and cutting down on the amount I see her. DP seems to have calmed down on the 'we need to move' tack (thankfully as we can't afford it!) but I am working my way towards accepting I will never have a fun mum I can ring up and meet for coffee.

Just to be clear, this is the wedding DP and I want, in church, followed by a party - we're not doing it this way because of her.

I was very quiet with her yesterday and she was kind of apologetic but without actually saying it (in her world).

I feel like I have had emotional overload if that's not too dramatic. My DB emailed my DP to ask how plans were going and DP told him about Sunday night and how upset I was. DB said to him that mum and I were as bad as each other, although he did admit mum was the main protagonist. He just doesn't see it, does he? He can't see what I'm up against. And given that he's the other side of the world, he's not going to see it.

Oh, and she still hasn't found me an engagement card which is suitable. When they were at mine on Sunday and I had a couple of engagement presents out on the side she asked what they were for. I said engagement presents, wasn't it nice, she said 'oh, so who has got engaged then' - she thought I'd bought them for other people!

I'm so sorry that some of you have gone through this too - Duvet, that's horrific about the fat during pregnancy jibes - I can almost guarantee I will get the same.

Peppermint I'm not sure what it is, I'm really not sure she is projecting - but I"m confused about it all, maybe I"m projecting onto her?!

Agatha, I laugh, a lot. it's the only thing that keeps me from crying. I'm sorry that you have had to give up so much contact with your dad, and I worry that my mum will be the same as your with regards to any children as she gets older? Do your children like / want to see her?

Puppy I was tyring not to react on sunday night. She kept pushing and pushing til I cracked. I thought I was doing really well, but it was too much. It was either cry or tell her to eff off - which, frankly, I am not prepared to do, the reprecussions would be too horrid (she'd probably slap me, my father would be so upset, she would cry, rain down guilt etc)

Huggly - I'm really seriously considering counselling. I'm hoping I can get it through work so I don't have to pay. I'm really not sure what she would say if I had to ask her to list my positive attributes. When I think about it the only things which come to mind are negative ones. But that's because of the way she talks to me, not becuase of the way I am. I know that I am not this person she pictures me as.

Baroness

Emotional overload is not too dramatic a term at all.

Emotional rather than just geographical distance is key here; you have to detach completely from this narc mother of yours otherwise she will bleed you dry and she will enjoy doing that to boot. Narcissists can be so very nasty to others and have such vicious tongues. Some people describe narcissists as toddlers but toddlers grow up; these people do not and whatever you do or say is never ever good enough for such damaged people.

I am wondering what your Dad's role is in all this overall dysfunction; often such men act as bystanders out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.
I would not let him off the hook.

Re any children you have, you and your future H will both have to protect them from her; she could well use any children as narcissistic supply and use them to get back at you.

These people never apologise for their actions not admit any responsibility for same.

I would suggest you read a book called "Children of the Self Absorbed" if you have not already done so.

I had a couple of engagement presents out on the side she asked what they were for. I said engagement presents, wasn't it nice, she said 'oh, so who has got engaged then' - she thought I'd bought them for other people!

Once you understand the mental gymnastics involved in absolving themselves from all guilt, it becomes quite fascinating to observe these displays of narcissism.

I was tyring not to react on sunday night. She kept pushing and pushing til I cracked. I thought I was doing really well, but it was too much. It was either cry or tell her to eff off

How about a third option: tell her how you feel and what you need from her. if what you need is not forthcoming, either repeat like a broken record, or leave the situation.

You can do this with dignity and composure, and oddly enough it is a way of respecting her just as much as it is about respecting yourself. Telling her to eff off would not be constructive, you're right, but giving her the opportunity to respond to your needs - and indeed, the choice not to do so - is a perfectly respectful thing to do, and also keeps you in control of your own choices and behaviour.

I will add that to the book list, thanks Attila. Dad is lovely. But others have said to me that I mustn't overlook his role in all this, which has opened my eyes to it a bit. He doesn't do anything about it.

Standing looking at the laptop at the weekend for some photos of my niece, my mum poked my stomach to make the point that I'm carrying a bit more weight than I normally do.

Dad just rolled his eyes and grinned. I moved out of the way. He doesn't say anything to her.

You're right, Puppy, it is fascinating and only now am I starting to see it. I felt so strong at my best friend's wedding, like I was in control all because I knew it wasn't my fault. Now I feel like I've regressed. I will try your approach. She doesn't like not knowing things, she thrives on secrets and information which others don't know. She loves things being on a 'need to know' basis - bonkers, she's not in MI5.

DP is saying again that we are going to move. We shall see.

Baroness, have just caught up with your thread. Am no expert on family relationships, but as looks as though you have the experts on board.

Just thinking that there is a option other than moving or going abroad- and that is to say to your mother that you and DP intend to plan the wedding you both want- she's had her wedding, remember- and that you ( perhaps with a contribution from PIL, who sound reasonable) will pay for it. It sounds as though she is planning her own dream wedding and you and DP are (sorry to be harsh) a major inconvenience, with your own wishes and opinions- you're not operating like the clockwork toy bride and groom she wants to play with.

You can't win. I think you need to scale down your plans (still having the day you want) but be prepared to pay. The finances are giving her a huge amount of control- because I can see her threatening to refuse to pay for anything once it's all booked, as a way to exert further control and forcing you to do things her way.

Baroness - my children have mixed feelings about seeing her. They want to see their grandad and have said several times that they miss seeing him so much, but they struggle with my mum. Our children are 20 and 17. In some ways it is easier now than a few years ago, as they both now know the score with my mother. I used to get quietly upset when they were little as she use to constantly have digs at me through them eg encourage them to do something a little naughty (like maybe jumping on her bed) and then saying to them 'oh, I'm not allowed to let you do that or Mummy will shout at me', or just telling them to eat all their dinner so I wouldn't shout at her. I NEVER shout at her!

When they were younger teens, she started to be more directly difficult with them, and would moan about one to the other, which neither of them liked.

They understand and know a little about my childhood now, and see her insults and 'staring at the wall' episodes for what they are - to cause upset and trouble. They are also old enough that we can laugh a little together, which as I said in my earlier post, does help to diffuse tension a little.

I think that as much as I wish I had a mother who was like other mothers, they also wish they had a grandmother who was like their friends grannies. Also, we have a very small family as my mother cut contact with all family members when I was a child, so on my side there are only my parents.

In some ways though, I wish we had moved away before we had the children - my mother always insisted that we should live nearby as I was their only child - but some physical distance might have helped us all have a different relationship with her over the years. Maybe planned visits 2 or 3 times a year can be managed easier??

Just read Inertia's post about your mother potentially refusing to pay for things that haven't been done her way. It is a really good point. My mother did this, albeit to a much lesser extent since we had a tiny wedding and paid for it ourselves. But she had promised to buy my dress etc. She never did pay for it, and I was left worrying about how to raise the subject with her, if it would offend her if I paid myself etc etc. Although the night before we married she threw such a massive hissy fit and announced she wouldn't be going to our wedding, which she carried on with until half an hour before we left for the registry office, when she decided she would come - although she didn't actually tell us, she just got dressed and got in the car.

Got some lovely swollen, red eyes on the photos from crying so much!

Baroness Congratulations on your upcoming wedding and I am so sorry to read here about your awful relationship with your mother. More so, since I had a lovely lovely dm (died 8 years ago), who I adored, so I know what a great parent/child bond can be like.

What I do not understand is why you get yourself immersed into this relationship so deeply? I have read your answer "because she is my mother", but it is not convincing. You talk about moving house, yet you accept your parents money to pay for the wedding I presume knowing that they or rather dm is likely to take most of controls over it. You consult her on the dresss/take her to fittings knowing that she is unlikely to give you a sensible advice or make you feel good. Why? You know you do not have to let her walk all over you? Why do you let yourself be so dependent on her?

I got married in a very simple ceremony wearing my jeans and having only the people I love next to me. I am blissfully happy with my dh.

I also have a difficult relationship with my df. So difficult that at the age of 39 I decided that I do not want him in my life until I learn to deal with all the hurt he dished out to me since I was a kid. He is not evil but our relationship had to temporarily stop and although I am not happy or elated over this I feel I have a fresh freeze blowing over me... I understand you can not do the same, but you do not have to pretend that you have loving, supportive, fair mother only to have your own illusions dashed for the upteenth time. Hope I make sense...

Oh Agatha - I'm so sorry. that's awful. What did / does your DH think of it all?

We're paying for our own outfits, for all church fees, for everything to do with the service and stationary, venue decoration and cars. Also rings and hair, bridesmaids outfits etc. Oh, and reception drinks and canapes.

My parents are paying for the venue and the food, my MIL is paying for flowers and the band.

So she really doesn't have much 'financial' control in the scheme of things (she's making the cake but neither of us are particularly bothered about that, it's not important to us) and I'm used to organising events, all the suppliers etc know to come to me - she just likes being involved in everything. It's not even really about who is paying for what. She just won't listen to the word 'no' ... I think, Inertia, you might have hit the nail on the proverbial head. She didn't have the wedding she wanted. She hated her dress, they had to change the church 3 weeks before the wedding, my grandparents didn't allow them to have an evening do... I guess there is something in there. Hmmm. I need to think about that one.

My SIL finds her very difficult on regular visits. the problem is that if we see them too much, it's too much. Too little and the whining becomes too much - I don't think we'd be able to win.

Maybe I should buy her a clockwork bride and groom to play with You're right when you say I can't win. If I accept that now it will be a lot easier for me on the day. Expect nothing.

bemybebe thank you, you do make sense.

I'm not sure if I can answer your question, to be honest.

I think it's ingrained. And the consequences of not involving her are harsher than the consequences of doing so. I wouldn't say that I'm dependant on her (maybe I am, maybe that is something I need to think about)

Apologies for not reading whole thread.

Do you have to have a big wedding? A friend of mine was nervous about getting married due to parents' acrimonious divorce. So she and her DH just organised the whole thing and told them about it when it was a done deal. They paid for everything themselves but it was worth it.

Lovely church wedding with simple 'afternoon tea' reception and no evening do. Some people went out for dinner together afterwards if they wanted.

Anyway you could do this instead?

Good luck! I hope you enjoy your big day and all the troubles before will pale into insignificance!..

Thanks, BeMyBebe - fingers crossed

Don't worry Fruit, it's incredibly long now I'm afraid. No, we don't have to have a big wedding but we've crunched our numbers and without excluding half of my family it wouldn't work - they wouldn't mind at all, they would understand, but it wouldn't be the same for us if none of my cousins were there. I know them all and like them! And it's not a huge do, certainly a third of the size of my brother's wedding. Your friend's wedding sounds lovely, very like the one I was at last weekend, which was fab.

Baroness - this way of acceptance is ingrained, as you said in your post. Children with mothers like this have been 'trained' from babyhood to not challenge, to accept, and to work hard to try to make their mother like them. I accept now that she will never like me, although I think in some ways she loves me, but just not in a normal and healthy way. So, because of your upbringing, when it comes to big events like weddings, your 'training' takes over and you fit into what is expected of you eg the dutiful daughter trying to please, taking her to dress fittings, trying to keep her happy.

Could you take a good friend with you as well as her for dress fittings, just to 'dilute' her effect a little? Preferable someone who realises what she is like?

You asked what my DH thinks of it all - over the years he has just supported me in trying to cope with her. He knows what she is like, although I think it is almost impossible for people who haven't experienced a childhood of fear with a parent like this to completely understand the long term impacts it can have, but he does try.