In such a mess here I can't see clearly anymore please tell me WWYD x

[Shambles40]

Hello.
I'm in a real mess here and would really appreciate a bit of honest advise.
Dh and I are living a complete fake life.
We have been married 20 years and have 4 Dc aged 18 15 8 and 1.
We have a nice house , 2 cars and both have good jobs.
I have lots of genuine and lovely friends.
I've been unhappy for many years and asked DH for a split many many times.
When we met at 19 we were completely different people to the people we are now.
I'm being completely honest now but all we have in common is our lovely children.
We have sex on average once or twice a year, always initiated by me.
the last time we had sex was when I conceived dd who is now 16 months.
all my friends think he is so good looking and lovely but I just don't find him attractive anymore because he feels more like a friend / brother to me these days.
Anyway after ds 8 years ago I realised I could never get out of the relationship because he refused point blank to leave so I made myself a promise - that I would never let our baby hear us argue or show the bitterness we now both harboured in front of him.
I can't say my husband abused me because I was just as horrid back to him, but always bit my Tongue in front of dc, even sitting in the car with my baby for hours some evenings until we both could return to the same room and be civil.
Since dd was born we can't even be civil to each other.
it's got nasty and every night now he mumbles under his breath horrible things, but loud enough for dc to hear.
he knows that upsets me more than anything.
I have begged him to leave but he won't go.
yes I could go but he won't pay the mortgage and then well all be homeless.
I have to be realistic. . . I have a job locally and am well known in the community in a professional capacity. I cannot just walk out with 4 dc in tow and shack up in a flat . my parents are not an option, my mother will or would be more traumatised what people think if we split up and prob won't speak to me for years.
my DH came from a family where his parents had a mainly non intimate relationship and his father had his own bedroom most of their marriage. he saw this as normal.
I can't bare him even touching me now. When he brushes past me I want to scream.
It's been really awful for probably 6 months.
We speak when we have to and apart from that neither of us can bare being in the same room.
I feel like I'm watching my dc inner spirit get sucked out and it's killing me.They just hear us bicker every night and this will be what they base their future relationships on.
Now if I have to I will be strong again and pretend eveything is ok JUST FOR THEM. DH wants this and when I told him I really don't love him he just shrugged his shoulders and said I should try to for the dc. I can continue to pretend outside the house and start pretending inside again if it's for the best.
That will be hard.
Or I can insist we separate and initially wreck my dc and his life, maybe just because I'm after something that doesn't exist anyway ?
would I be doing it purely because I think I'd have a relationship one day which might be better ?
Is what we have normal for some ?
I DO have feelings for him because we've been together over 20 years and he's a fabulous father of my 4 dc. however I have no sex life and he has never once taken me out, told me I'm pretty or gone out with a friend. He has no friends goes nowhere and just wants to come shopping with me for his trip out !I want to feel something with someone one day and even if I don't I really rea
Ly don't want my dc thinking what we have is normal because the lack of any affection between us is horrid.
Would I cope as a single parent ? he says not. Shit I can't even change a lightbulb ! The thought of nights up alone with sick children terrifies me because we have always done everything together even though I'm always the one who makes any sort of decision .
Give me some strength to at least pretend I'm happy in front of the children . maybe a few home truths ? they come first so I must change something x

We can all get into a mess in life, for many different reasons. we're all weak, in parts, and things can spiral out of control.

BUT when there are children involved, when children are sucked into the mess, then that is a different story. You say that you 'begged' your husband to leave - why did you beg him? Why did you put the responsibility of the future of your relationship entirely in his hands? You didn't want to make that decision yourself so forced it on to him: he wouldn't comply, you gnashed your teeth that he wouldn't do your job for you. Meanwhile, the children were present, living in this shit.

You do not say that your daughter overheard the exchange between you and your husband, you say that she reminded you of when you said it. Why was she party to that conversation? She should not have been. I wonder if conversations, exchanges, of this type are common parlance in your family life. It is unacceptable to involve children - your children, whose job it is for you to protect - in exchanges like that.

Also, why are you only now seeking therapy to address this appalling and protracted mess? Why wasn't this done, say, 10 years ago? Why now, when the situation is so entrenched, so desperate, that you recoil from your husban'ds physical presence and incidental touch? That situation is POISON for the children - your children - who are forced to live in it. they have no choice, you are supposed to be their security but you have presented a family life, their only family life, that is toxic and profoundly insecure.

You've been asking your husband to leave for ten years, yet you "begged him" to have the last two children who are 8 and 1.

I have to agree with Springydaffs that seeking therapy when you first wanted him to leave, and before bringing two more children into this mess, would have been better.

However, counselling now is imperative. You really need to get your head sorted out, because whether you and your husband get back together or split permanently, you need to make sure you're making things better for your children, not the same and not worse.

The same goes for your husband. He might have agreed to having the two youngest because he hoped you'd stop asking him to leave. But he should also have asked why you wanted him to leave and taken notice of the answers.

Springdaff I really do not see how your aggressive attack on the OP is going to help. She may not return to the thread. She has made a lot of mistakes but she needs our support now to stay strong and end things for good. I also think she's probably well aware of her failings sadly. I know I certainly was when my marriage broke down and I can imagine how she feels having walked that path myself. Your attack and criticisms of her failings aren't helpful and if they drive her away from this thread, I'll actually be quite sad as she needs support. I can appreciate how angry you feel, but she needs support now and encouragement to stay strong and away from him, not to be pulled apart for things she cannot change now, she cannot change the past but she can make sure she gets the future right especially with support.

Mumsnet was a huge help to me when my marriage ended, but by God if you'd been on my thread I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have returned and I may have actually made different choices. Maybe I'm weak but I want the OP to get the help she needs from us. Not to feel like this isn't a safe place to talk

Tea, I totally agree with you.

Op. You are doing ok you know. Of course you care about him, of course you are a little scared of being single, and most if all of course you are considering your children.

Can I suggest he stays at his parents but you still do relate? They can help with amiable separations as well as maintaining marriages. The only thing you have written that makes me worry is that he is coming to the house to care for the children. I know they will love that but suspect it might be very confusing for all of you. No fantastic solutions I am afraid but thought I would mention it so you can give it some thought, maybe talk it through at relate?

Be kind to yourself and ignore springy. You will grieve and need care but it is what it is now. Btw your daughter sounds absolutely fabulous and that is something you and h should be really proud of. Now ensure the youngest two will have the same good parenting; and you really do not need to live together to do that.

I also think she's probably well aware of her failings sadly.

I don't think she is - she clearly isn't, nor clear that she has mashed her children into her/their own mess. I think you may be projecting your experiences on to the OPs tea re she must be a decent woman who is doing her best. She isn't doing her best: she is in a mess and has dragged her children into it, 2 into existence; bleating that her husband won't leave her (what's that all about??) whilst at the same time begging to have more children with him; talking to her children about the absolute mess she/they have created, blaming her husband. Not getting any help re counselling until the ship has gone down and all on board are drowned. etc etc.

All well and good if children aren't involved - we all get into godawful messes, certainly. NOt only are these children involved - as all children are 'involved' in marital disharmony/break-up to some degree - they have been dragged on as props. That's what I feel angry about, not the mess.

springdaffy- practically, housing-wise, it would be more reasonable for OP's H to leave as she would have FIVE people to relocate, he - just one (I assume dc would stay with their mum as their main residence).

the law isn't sitting there like a dummy, all trained up with nowhere to go. If OP had actually made that decision and went about drawing up a formal (legal) separation, she would get the house until the youngest is 18. She did not have to beat her fists into him to do for her what she should have done for herself and her children years ago

so that's the law she ignored, plus counselling she ignored and instead brought two extra children into the godawful mess; creating a barrier, I suspect, to facing up to her own responsibilities, instead of expecting the world and his wife (or her children) to carry her responsibilities and make her decisions for her.

Poor OP eh. Poor helpless OP. They can't take a year off, this being the dark ages where women and children are not rigorously protected by law.

I think the OP has low self-esteem. Her parents are overbearing and care more about what the neighbours think than what is best for their daughter.

She was very young when she married and had her first child. After the second child she resigned herself to living in an unhappy marriage for the sake of the children. Now we can all come on here and tell her that that was the wrong choice but at the time she thought it was best for her husband and children.

Having low self-esteem means that you do not value yourself. You are easily persuaded that making choices that will improve your own life are damaging to others and that you would be a horrible person to put your own needs first.

This message has been reinforced over 20 years by the OP's parents and husband. It is only now, that the penny is starting to drop and it is still not clear to the OP what to do for the best.

If you have good self-esteem, if you are confident, independent or have RL support, people who appreciate you and respect your needs and feelings, then yes, it is a lot easier to make those decisions.

It's easy to criticise and say you've done x, y and z wrong, but the OP cannot turn back time and change those decisions. All she can do now is make the right choices for the future. She has come here to ask for help and support not to have people kick her when she's down.

I agree that that is probably the case - or possibly the case, I really don't know. It still doesn't excuse dragging the children into the mess. Plenty of people have low self-esteem but recognise that there is a barrier that should NEVER be crossed, ever, for any reason: and that is to involve the children and use them as emotional props; to mash them up in what should be entirely separate re the parents' turmoil.

There is a lot of denial going on with the OP which is simply not acceptable when the children are being used. We all have levels of denial to keep us sane at times but there are times when denial is not and never will be acceptable: denial is a choice. This is the reason, not the turmoil, the mess, that I have not held back. If I could see even a trace that OP is taking responsibility for her own life - low self-esteem or not - then I would not be so scorching. OP is blaming anyone and everyone - fine if she wants/needs/can't help doing that, but not fine when she is dragging her children into it.

springy have you read the whole thread?

Yes, from the start, and right the way through.

It's interesting how men can behave like this badly and we round on them on MN. But when a woman does we assume there are mitigting circumstances, that really she is trying her best and, although she may be making mistakes, she's altogether heading in the right direction using her best possible, selfless, efforts. Because women, after all, are good - right? We are quick to sneer if a man is behaving badly and it is suggested that he eg had a tough childhood (has low self-esteem), is suffering from depression, stress at work, whatever; but jump to the defence of women who behave badly, ferretting around for a Good Reason.

OP is probably long gone, very probably because she doesn't want to face her culpability in the appalling mess she and her husband have created, which their children have not only had to sit in - which sometimes can't be helped (but only for the shortest possible time!) but have been actively dragged into. That is reprehensible.

You're being unnecessarily (and rather uncharacteristically) vicious here, springy. What on earth is the point in telling someone off for having children they've already had? She can't send them back - even the little one. The question is where does she go from here, not what should she have done 20 years ago. You're very, very angry at somebody but I wonder whether that somebody is just the OP.

Pity we're not all like you, springydaffs. Then we wouldn't need a relationships board. [sceptical].

If it made the OP think twice about roping her dc into this appalling situation, and galvanised the OP to take some responsibility, then it was worth making myself unpopular. It's the kids I care about. somebody has to.

Springy I think you are missing the point here, which is why I wasn't sure if you'd read the thread.

I think everyone, including the OP, agrees that this relationship has been bad for the children.

OP used to think that staying together was best for the children and her DH even though she herself was desperately unhappy. Even now, she still thinks her DH is a wonderful father but cannot see how they have a future together.

The only thing stopping her leaving is that she has been told it will devastate him and the children. She has also been repeatedly told that she cannot manage on her own and it has taken a lot of courage for her to even consider going it alone.

The children have not been used by the parents but they have been aware of the problems in the relationship, as will any child when their parents argue and/or split up.

The point is, that the OP is asking where to go from here, and how? She doesn't trust her own judgement that leaving is the best thing for all of them in the long run because it seems initially like a selfish act, to split up the family. That is why she is asking for advice.

I would say the same to a man under the same circumstances.

springydaffs if the OP had been thinking about having another child, then I couldn't understand your posts. They would actually make a lot of sense.

However, this is not the case. The children are here and there is nothing that can be done about it. What can be done is to help the OP through getting divorced now. What are you suggesting?

And I disagree very strongly with your 'poor OP's H'. This guy has been happy to live someone who didn't want to be with him?? That was OK?!? He didn't want to get divorced and stopped her from doing it but never suggested relate, counselling for himself or them as a couple. Why didn't he do any of these things that you said the OP should have done a long time ago? Why did he agree to have these dcs if he didn't want to? To have a child you also need a father and he could have the snip, use a condom to avoid bringing a child 'into this mess' as you said. Because it's not because you are not the one to want a divorce that you don't have some part & responsability in the situation. And as I see it, both partners here have some responsabilities.

Now then issue here is how can we support the OP. Counselling now is a good idea. Splitting up, at least for a bit, is a good idea. And not driving the OP away.

Sounds like a particularly unhealthy mess. Leave, get breathing space and try to focus on co-parenting?

FGS If the OP is long gone Springy then it won't be because she doesn't want to face this mess but due to your continued cutting blunt, viscious and constant messages on her thread. If you really cared about the children you'd help her be strong and stay separated not drive her away from this thread

I wasn't projecting anything onto her, I help on a course supporting people going through separation and divorce and the way you're operating on this thread is completely wrong and things are not black and white or cut and dried when you're married with children. It is a painful gut wrenching time

Shambles I hope you're ok this weekend.

When I say gut wrenching I mean when the marriage is ending and you're having to make that choice.

I didn't walk out but I ended my marriage and my Dh left and I am a single aprent to 3 children now. As for changing lightbulbs, you will surprise yourself. In the last year I have learnt how to do some basic car maintainance, bleed the radiators and all sorts.

There are no social reasons for you to stay in your unhappy marriage. Your parents might not speak to you for a while but they will get over it, no one in your village will really give a shit and any gossip will be tomorrows chip wrappers.

Seriously, cannot stress that you are over complicating things with outside issues rather than face the fact your marriage is over. When you actually deal with the real issue you will wondr why you left it so long!

Shambles, I kind of hope that you are not even reading this. But if you are take from the thread what helps and ignore the rest. And, I hope it helps that there are people here who care. xx

Well said Saggy. OP you can do this. Just take it one day at a time. If you can build up a network of support locally (other mums?) they will help when times get tough, kids get sick, you need a break etc. and you can do the same for them. You are raising 4 kids, you have loads of experience and are quite capable. Go with your gut feeling. Trust yourself.

She isn't asking for advice, she is asking for somebody to do it for her. When she runs out of adults to ask she asks her children.

I do wish yous would actually read what she has written (also what i have written btw). She writes as though she is in a high school play and that it's not really got anything to do with her (Somebody Else needs to deal with it) - I suspect her considerable distress is because life is butting hard up against her and she is freaking out, wanting it to all go away and be ok - like, tomorrow (tonight if possible). She excuses her inability to deal with the reality of her situation, or her life in general, by saying that she was with her ex all her adult life re since she was 19: that's 19 btw, not 9. or 6.

There is not a trace of acknowledgement here that she is dragging the whole shebang along behind her, and wailing that it's all going wrong (somebody save me!! cuddle up at night with me!! ). There is no acknowlegment from her of how fucked up she is, how distorted the whole wretched story is that she is presenting, only that her husband is the big baddy who has, she says, blocked her future. Yet she begged him to have more children, even when things were unbearable between them and she was begging him to leave. She's not even making any sense, her sentiments don't hang together, there is nothing cogent in what she is saying, only somebody please live my life for me and make all my decisions

Read her bloody posts, don't assume she is being as reasonable as you would be. She shows no discernment that her children are separate from her or even real. Something is really, really wrong here, something isn't hanging together big time.

springdaffs - would you consider elements of co-dependency?

Its OK i asked for honesty !
Have realised for the first time in my life i think that I am responsible for my childrens and my future happiness and that i am capable of making decisions and changes all by myself.
It may sound strange to many of you who are confident about your instincts and capabilities and ability to intiate change but until now it never really occured to me that i could end it-or end/ change many things actually.
I think i prob have a lot of other issues to address which will come later-primarily my own parents and my not good relationship with them ( my father is an absolute bully ).
Anyway-when i said dd heard me asking dh to leave it wasnt her in the room witnessing some god awful row. it wasnt her accidently over hearing some god awful row either.
It was actually apparently me in the kitchen making Sunday dinner and wed obv. had some sort of disagreement and id said - oh just go to your mums fgs and give me a break! At the time his parents lived about 3 minutes away .
This week when i was talking to her about her daddy going back to his mothers for a while she d said she remembered me asking him to do same years ago.
She has not been listening to us argue all this time !
Sorry spring but imo its entirely normal to bicker with dp occassonally and i dont think its awful as long as thats all it is .
Its gotten out of hand here over the last 3 months prob, but weve had 20 years of the kids not seeing us like this.
We will address the why and wherefores now i realise that actually you do not have to stay in a marriage regardless. I know most adults already know this but honestly some people like me need it yelling at them for various reasons.
I suppose i have had a lot on this year too, unmanagable amount really -may have just lost the grip for a while.
Thanks for all the advice and hometruths tho girls- will read them all again in bed later .