In such a mess here I can't see clearly anymore please tell me WWYD x

[Shambles40]

Hello.
I'm in a real mess here and would really appreciate a bit of honest advise.
Dh and I are living a complete fake life.
We have been married 20 years and have 4 Dc aged 18 15 8 and 1.
We have a nice house , 2 cars and both have good jobs.
I have lots of genuine and lovely friends.
I've been unhappy for many years and asked DH for a split many many times.
When we met at 19 we were completely different people to the people we are now.
I'm being completely honest now but all we have in common is our lovely children.
We have sex on average once or twice a year, always initiated by me.
the last time we had sex was when I conceived dd who is now 16 months.
all my friends think he is so good looking and lovely but I just don't find him attractive anymore because he feels more like a friend / brother to me these days.
Anyway after ds 8 years ago I realised I could never get out of the relationship because he refused point blank to leave so I made myself a promise - that I would never let our baby hear us argue or show the bitterness we now both harboured in front of him.
I can't say my husband abused me because I was just as horrid back to him, but always bit my Tongue in front of dc, even sitting in the car with my baby for hours some evenings until we both could return to the same room and be civil.
Since dd was born we can't even be civil to each other.
it's got nasty and every night now he mumbles under his breath horrible things, but loud enough for dc to hear.
he knows that upsets me more than anything.
I have begged him to leave but he won't go.
yes I could go but he won't pay the mortgage and then well all be homeless.
I have to be realistic. . . I have a job locally and am well known in the community in a professional capacity. I cannot just walk out with 4 dc in tow and shack up in a flat . my parents are not an option, my mother will or would be more traumatised what people think if we split up and prob won't speak to me for years.
my DH came from a family where his parents had a mainly non intimate relationship and his father had his own bedroom most of their marriage. he saw this as normal.
I can't bare him even touching me now. When he brushes past me I want to scream.
It's been really awful for probably 6 months.
We speak when we have to and apart from that neither of us can bare being in the same room.
I feel like I'm watching my dc inner spirit get sucked out and it's killing me.They just hear us bicker every night and this will be what they base their future relationships on.
Now if I have to I will be strong again and pretend eveything is ok JUST FOR THEM. DH wants this and when I told him I really don't love him he just shrugged his shoulders and said I should try to for the dc. I can continue to pretend outside the house and start pretending inside again if it's for the best.
That will be hard.
Or I can insist we separate and initially wreck my dc and his life, maybe just because I'm after something that doesn't exist anyway ?
would I be doing it purely because I think I'd have a relationship one day which might be better ?
Is what we have normal for some ?
I DO have feelings for him because we've been together over 20 years and he's a fabulous father of my 4 dc. however I have no sex life and he has never once taken me out, told me I'm pretty or gone out with a friend. He has no friends goes nowhere and just wants to come shopping with me for his trip out !I want to feel something with someone one day and even if I don't I really rea
Ly don't want my dc thinking what we have is normal because the lack of any affection between us is horrid.
Would I cope as a single parent ? he says not. Shit I can't even change a lightbulb ! The thought of nights up alone with sick children terrifies me because we have always done everything together even though I'm always the one who makes any sort of decision .
Give me some strength to at least pretend I'm happy in front of the children . maybe a few home truths ? they come first so I must change something x

From the point of view of someone whose parents stayed together, when they shouldn't have, you are doing your children no favours. They will know, they will be able to sense the tention and animosity between you. You run the risk that they will learn to accept unhealthy relationships as the norm, that being unhappy is better than being single, that in a bad relationship, you should put up and pretend that everything is ok.

Surely what you want them to learn is that everyone has the right to be happy and that being single is better than being miserable. In order to teach them that you have to move out and become happy again.

He tells you that you wouldn't cope as a single parent, because he doesn't want you to. He wants to keep everything as it is, because it suits him.

You are not here to make him happy, you are here to make yourself happy and to be a good role model to your children.

I once asked DH what he'd do if I wanted to leave (was having an overly dramatic, maudlin conversation) and he said he'd be heartbroken but he wouldn't stop me. I asked him why and he said because he loved me and wanted me to be happy, and if being with him wasn't making me happy then he hoped I would say that and leave if necessary. Forcing another person to stay with you even if they don't want to is very cruel and ultimately completely pointless. There is very little chance, IMO of you two being genuinely happy again, so why not separate in the most amicable way possible and try to move on? The fact that your husband sees how unhappy you are and yet threatens you in order to make you stay rings big alarm bells for me. He either doesn't care about your feelings at all or is so dependent on you that he genuinely believes he can't live without you. Either way it's not a healthy relationship and it needs to end.

Threatening to kill yourself if someone leaves you is the lowest of the low IMO.

My parents stayed together and my dad still idolises my mother. But it was a horrible atmosphere. They argued constantly, real shouting matches, my father sulkked, then came round, thenm said his wife was saintly. They had such a huge fight when I was fifteen my father was in tears sobbing into his hands and I was comforting him (no wonder i have always fallen for the 'underdogs' in relationships) and i stood up and boldly told her to fuck off.

She got in the car and drove off, didn't come back for 8 hours. After three, my father was wrigning his hands and blaming me, berating me.

In short it was shit.

The final horrid image is when I came back from Uni and found my younger sister weeping in bed and the two of them at it hammer and tongs donwstaurs (thinking presumably she couldn't hear)

I marched into the room and said 'why the hell don't you two just split up' they rounded on me. My dad scoffed. 'Don't be ridiculous, we love each other' he said.

Well I went on to have a string of disastrous relationships, abortion, drink, shit marriage. So before you start thinking about what your poor mother will say about your decision to stay, please think about the legacy you will inflict on your children.

There were five of us. We are all fuck ups, though I am out of the cult thank god and I can't stand my parents for not doing us all a favour and going their separate ugly ways.

unlikelyamazon - oh dear. I am sorry you've had such a shit time, but I know you are wiser now and I wish you every happiness for the future. Unfortunately, you have given a very good example of the effect of unhealthy relationships. I learnt from my parents that you must 'soldier on in life' and withstand things (that you shouldn't) but just keep going.

My lesson was, learned late - sometimes there are situations when it is best to give up.

You'd be doing everybody a favour by splitting up, imo. Even your dh. He's locked into repeating his parents' marriage with you, but if you put an end to it, he will also have the chance of something better. It doesn't sound exactly happy for him either.

It might turn out that he's incapable of changing, but at least he wouldn't drag you down with him.

I don't know what to do .
he actually told his mum what was happening tonight and she has said he is always welcome but obviously encouraged him to stay and work things out. Which ever way I turn I just see heartache and I know no one can but I wish someone would just say do this it's the right thing etc ...
he was actually able to talk tonight. said he loved me and realised that he hadn't realised how unhappy I was until recently and he couldn't believe he'd expected me to lead a life with no sex or affection.said he'd do anything to make me happy.
he said he will go to his mums tomorrow if that's what I want. he's packed 2 suitcases and will go after work if I still want him too. because I've asked him this for over ten years and until tonight he's never listened I want him to go so I can get some breathing space and see how we both feel. However I'm concious primarily with dc and don't want to roller coast their poor little heads any more . I feel I need to end it entirely or make a go. . .not just say go for a few days / weeks and see how we feel ?
would it be harder on the children for him to just go to his mums for a while to give us some time apart to think reflect go to counselling ?
Is it selfish of me ?
I can see he is at rock bottom and was tempted to cuddle him tonight because I could see he'd been crying but I would be doing this because I feel sorry for him . I've lived with him my entire adult life and will always care deeply for him. if I cuddled him I know he'd see that the wrong way and before I know it He'd think everything was ok and we'd be back to resentment and arguments within a day or so.
I've asked for this for over ten years and now he has listened I'm so scared . I'm scared of messing the dc,s heads about and I'm scared because as much as I think we need to separate I've never lived without him. we moved in at 19 married at 21 and had first dc at 22 . I'm now 41 and he is the father of all my children so i Can't hate him.
he told his ds he wasn't coming home after work tomorrow he'd be going to his mums for a little while and ds was distraught because he just doesn't know what to think. Is daddy coming or going ? I know for his sake I have to do something and be firm stick to it and stop messing about. Am tempted to say oh fuck it just stay and change and everyone will be happy and I'll just make the best if it because he's not a bad person . What gives me the right to mess up so man people's lives because I think in the king term they will all be happier and less messed up ?
Have to make the choice now in the next few hours and it's such a massive massive decision which I feel incapable of making. sorry to write so much . X

Let him go for a while and give yourself a bit of breathing space; bet there is another woman behind the scenes. Sorry to say this! Have not read the whole thread but good luck OP and hope that you will feel better soon. You will probably feel happier with just you and the DC - won't be treading on eggshells any more!

You only get one life and it sounds like it's been a really unhappy one for a long time for you.

When I got my first exh out of the house (he was an all round abuser), it was 'for a couple of weeks' but in reality, it was for good in my mind and thank God we had no children. It gave me space, time and air to breathe. I'd stayed with him for as long as I did because I didn't want to 'let my family down or to shame myself or them' but I know that had I stayed, one of us would've wound up dead. When talking to my Dad, he actually told me that he didn't want me to even marry exh. So my worries were unfounded...maybe your Mother won't feel as bad as you think she will if you decide to split for good?

Life really is too short and you have time to make a good life for you and your Dc's.

thanks for your reply. no other woman absolutely 99 percent certain. been with him 20 years and the only person he has sex with is himself !

Let him go. Enjoy the peace and see how you feel in the time to think. Be strong. It's very hard as we love our children and we want what's best for them. Your mind is in turmoil but honestly when the dust settles you'll see clearer. Let him go x

Let him go. If you "say oh fuck it just stay and change and everyone will be happy", then he will have no incentive to change. Let him go and demonstrate whether he is capable of change.

I agree with the others, let him go, otherwise, as you say yourself, you'd be "back to resentment and arguments within a day or so"
I think something needs to change.

Look, you are worried about the heartache that splitting would cause. What about the heartache that staying is causing? Do you think that the first one will be worse that the current one?

It is good that your H is going away. You do need some space and see how life would be on your own. Enjoy a stress free evening, life without someone you do not want to be with and see how it goes. Also look at the effect on your dcs. Do they appreciate a relaxed house and are they, themselves, a bit more relaxed too?

It's normal that you want to give him a cuddle because he seems to be so low. You've been together for 20 years and for course you still care for him. You've put his needs (staying together) before yours (separating) for years. It's not going to change overnight! However, you do need to wander how your H could actually want to stay in a relationship where he knew his partner didn't want to be in. And why suddenly he is opening his eyes. I can only noticed that things started to go bad after the birth of dc3 and then worse again when dc4 arrived. Is there something to do with him not wanting another dc and feeling trapped?

I would think hard to what you (together) are going to say to the dcs. You do need to talk openly with your older dcs (remember your dc1 is nearly the same age than yu when you got married). Explain things to the younger ones too, albeit a diluted version. It will less unsettling for everyone to know what is going on than being left to guess.

wonder not wander...

what cactusrash said
also, should maybe have added to my previous post that I asked H to move out a couple of weeks ago, he was distraught, I just wanted to hug him too, we've been together for years as well, I care deeply about him too, I know how bad it feels :(

Tiredandgoinground . Have you any dc ?
cactus rash,thank you for your post. he's just gone. said he'll come back on Thurs ( I've agreed to work some overtime the and fri this week and next to pay for dd 16th birthday present ) so he'll be here to have dc.
he's gone to work, red eyed and obviously very tired which is worrying because he has a lot of driving to do today and then his parents live 70 miles away too and he must be shattered.
As bad as I feel I have more respect for him this morning than I've had for years because him moving out means he is actually listening to me.
What I don't want to do is mess his emotions and dc any more because I've seen women play their oh one way then the other . Sending them off and then wanting them back and on it goes. . Terrible .
Thank you for advice about dc.
DD 15 said she was thinking last night and remembers me asking daddy to go when she was in year 6 and she Is now in year 11 and she said mum stop worrying about us your doing a great job and we love you both . dad needs to go now .
What if i miss him like crazy ?
I think things have got so bad no amount of counselling / talking was possible but time apart may be the saving of our marriage because I think he really is thinking for the first time how ignorant he's been.
The dc thing, yes ill be honest I always always planned with him every dc but it was more me than him.The last two I begged him for hence the huge age gap. he needed a lot of persuading . He is the most amazing Dad tho and adores all his dc. for all his lack of husand skills and things that have driven us apart he is the one who genuinely adores them all and will do anything for them . he goes to sleep holding little ones hand every night and just lives for them .
Anyway he's gone now. Went about half an hour ago. DC all still asleep.
X

Sending you strength. It's "IdjustassoonkissaZombie" I've reverted to my old nick name.

DD 15 said she was thinking last night and remembers me asking daddy to go

YOur dd heard you ask him this? Is it right that a child hears a conversation like this between his/her parents?

YOur thread is confusing me OP. A lot of the posters seem to have the same writing style - is it you posting under different names?

I am horrified that your children have lived in this atmosphere OP for goodness knows how many years. It is far far worse than their parents splitting up - far worse.

I can't help feeling cross that you are dragging your dc through years of this and yet you are worrying you will 'miss' your husband if you split. For goodness sake, be an adult OP. I don't know why you are so dependent on your husband emotionally (yet loathe him) but you have presented an appallingly dysfunctional - damaging - template for your children. Even if you split now - which you clearly should - the damage you have both already done by exposing your children to this will be immense.

If you can't face a permanent split then I would suggest you split for a full year, to give you both space (and your poor children ). You would have to rigidly stick to it and use the time to do all you can to find out what is going on with you personally. re therapy/counselling, plus any 12-step groups. You sound like an addict of some kind - perhaps you both are?

I don't hold out much hope of you holding to a year's break with any degree of self-control, however; given what has happened so far. You seem to blaming your OH for a lot - maybe justified - but youalso will have a large hand in the appalling circumstances your children have ended up in. You are their parent - for goodness sake, protect them.

Step up to the plate OP - be an adult.

No it's not me under lots of different names !
neither of us is addicted to anything either. never touched a drug in my life tbh and prob drink too much at the mo but too much for me is 2 glasses of red !
thanks for your bluntness re the dc.
its not his fault I am not blaming him .
you made a point about emotionally relying on him tho. That's makes sense.
Don't forget you only getting a snippet on here. dc have had far more positives than negatives and because of the bickering I have taken steps tho faltering so to make changes for them and not for me .
I have been to a church group which suggested I make a go of my marriage to no avail.
we have had our first appt, at relate.
we have 4 dc and have been together 20 years so of course I'm emotionally reliant on him because I haven't HAD to make a decision by myself ever .
Anyway that's not the point.
DC shouldnt be aware that we resent each other and I couldn't plan a twelve month split . he's gone for the weekend for now and he'll either come back with my blessing and see if we can make changes or we will separate and move on making it as least traumatic asossible for the family.
my eldest two are confident well rounded young adults both heading for life knowing they can always come home and indeed my eldest dd comes home most weekends and happily brings her Uni friends too.
if you notice my in my original post to everyone else we are the happiest couple and people jokingly say what's your secret and your so lucky. we don't walk around openly bickering and miserable and we do have some really fun family time together most weeks. we've just lost the grown up part and behaved like kids ourselves .
we def not addicts tho ! And I'm def not making up different names and replying to myself . OMG I feel better if that's what I could be doing .
maybe what we have is somewhat normal if that's what you think I could be like !

You're not as bad as all that huh? You're very probably not an axe-murderer, either, but that doesn't mean that what you are doing is not relative; and not extremely damaging for your kids. Well-rounded or not (I suspect not if they have grown up in this appalling atmosphere), this will have had a disastrous effect on how they conduct their adult relationships: you have said yourself that your glittering marriage (to those outside) is a fake, seething with hatred - they will have imbibed that, do you see?

However, my bluntness seems to have punched you back into denial ("it's/I'm not so bad")

the church group: did they support you (properly, I mean, not just chivvying you back to your awful marriage) - re ongoing, sorting out the issues with you separately as well as together, over the long term?

Addictions don't have to be (and most often aren't) obvious things like booze, sex, drugs btw. Most are much more subtle eg dependence.

springy I thik you are being very harsh here. There are lots of reasons why people find it hard to leave a 20 year marriage. Especially when you've got married at 19yo and that's the only you've ever known as an adult.

I also think that children hear a lot more than we think. So it's not an issue of the OP telling her H she wants divorce in front of the dcs. More the fact that it's not unusual that you think the dcs are in bed, in the garden/whatever and they won't hear you but they do.

That doesn't make the OP 'bad' or not an adult or whatever. It just means taht leaving such a marriage IS difficult even when it seems obvious it's the right choice for everybodyelse around.

Finally, can I remind you that her H actually accepted to stay in a marriage where he knew his partner didn't want to be in. That he was the one to refuse to get divorced. IMHO, he has as much responsability in the situation as the OP.

Shambles40 I know yoiu have done your best to protect your dcs from the bickering etc.. but children DO pick up on subtle signs so even if you never ever argue or raise voices they would have picked up on it. However, what is clear from your posts is that you have done your best and given your best shot.
What you need to be sure now is that he won't come back without both of you agreeing on some sort of action plan AND agreeing on a deadline. IF things aren't good enough by that time, then you will get divorced.
I would also suggest counselling for yourself. I think it would be of a great help to know exactely what is a deal braker for you and you will be able to convey that to your H. Up to him then to raise to the challenge or say 'No this is not what I want in life'.

Well said Cactus.

Shambles I don't think springydaffs was suggesting that you were addicted to a substance (alcohol, drugs), people can behave 'as addicts' in their relationships, eg. never being able to stop contact even if its unhealthy.

I think a temporary separation (what you are doing) is good and you need to really try and think about the future and what you want it to be like.

If you have any really good friends/family members who are great listeners and good at being objective, seek them out & get talking about how you feel.

Hope things improve for you & your family.