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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

DH punishing me with his depression??

87 replies

Wifeoflaugh · 24/10/2011 13:44

I posted this in MH on another thread but I'm trying here for a bit more input. All thoughts welcome.

Dh has had depression for years. Things have been much more bearable and our relationship much better since he started citalopram (been on it 3 years now).

My problem: Most of the time dh is outwardly apparently 'normal' although he gets stressed and low at times. And most of the time we get on very well and support each other dealing with our dcs. But every now and then if I do something that he sees as 'nagging' or 'humiliating' him he threatens suicide. The nagging/humiliating can be incredibly trivial e.g. tonight I asked him (in a friendly enough and not stressy voice) not to eat roast potatoes out of the dish with his fingers and use a fork. He said 'I don't do that' and the dcs both said 'yes, you do dad, you just did it,'. This he interprets as me humiliating him in front of the children, 'everyone is against him' and therefore life is not worth living. Another time the trigger was me grumbling that he hadn't replaced a loo roll when he'd used it up.

He has not made open suicide threats in front of the children but he lies on the floor muttering under his breath ("no point going on" etc) and/or storming off and threatening never to come back. Of course this terrifies me and upsets the children and so I end up begging him to 'come back' and pleading with him to accept my apologies. This has happened about once every 2 or 3 months for the past year and each time it's when I have been mildly irritated about a trivial matter and have expressed this to him. I'm not a saint and probably I sometimes I show irritation out loud which translates to him as nagging.

But I am starting to feel manipulated. It feels like my punishment for daring to express any irritation is an automatic 'now look what you've done - you've made me want to kill myself.'

I don't know whether to take this seriously. Is he so depressed that such a tiny thing really tips him over the edge? Or is he using his illness to punish me for annoying him? I don't think I can be a patient saint every minute of every day. Other events such as an unexpected big bill and a problem at work do not seem to have this effect on him even though they are highly stressful.

AAGGGGGHHH. Advice desperately needed.

OP posts:
lottiegb · 26/10/2011 12:28

Hi Wifeoflaugh, I'm so pleased you're happy with the idea of your children talking to an outside party.

My childhood circumstances were different (single mother with psychotic illness, mostly totally fine on medication, sometimes, at intervals of years, ill -ranging from withdrawn, depressed, delusional to suicidal). Having an objective viewpoint and opportunity to talk with someone whose primary responsibility was to me, not my mother, would have been very helpful.

Your children have you, which is massively important but, I can imagine circumstances where they feel that you're already burdened enough and don't want to add to that with their own concerns. It could also be quite helpful to hear from someone else that depression is a common and very real illness but can be treated and managed.

I had relatives and old family friends who knew about my mother's illness but didn't really talk about it to me, as well as newer friends who didn't know. As a child, medical staff had a responsibility to take my interests into account but not to talk to me (difficult, placing a burden of care on a child isn't fair but knowledge is useful). I felt a great deal of loyalty and protectiveness towards my mother but also experienced frustration and teenage irritation with her. Having someone else to talk to could have helped put things in perspective and improved our relationship.

I also found it a bit surprising, in adulthood, when family / old friends said 'I know it must have been difficult at these times' and I thought 'so why didn't you let me know that you knew that, at the time?'. The lines of loyalty, freindship, responsibility and intrusion are hard for friends to negotiate. Hence the value of an expert stranger and/or a friend with a defined role in relation to the child. In your case I imagine people defer to your role as wife and parent, which may place a big burden on you, without support.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll need some but also that you'll come through this well.

Wifeoflaugh · 26/10/2011 17:49

Thanks again for the input. I can't mention you all by name as my moments on MN are so snatched between real life stuff, but thanks Lottie for your perspective as a child, C'estlavie for the book recommendations, Fabby, Garlic,Gypsy and others for the honesty and your perspectives.

Can I ask you all about the dcs? I agree with you all that our dcs need some support. (my head may have been firmly shoved under a cushion and my ears blocked singing la la la to stop myself seeing the damage our dysfunction is doing to our dcs them) BUT as I said, most of the time things in the family are normal , calm and generally happy. Dh's 'tantrums' are totally unpredictable and out of all proportion to any reality but they are not frequent (perhaps every two months?). His suicide threats have never been openly spoken about in front of the dcs and have been made only 3 or 4 times, but the dcs do see him being furious, swearing, cold and sneering usually at me when he is 'in one.' He apologises usually the next day to me and them and admits he shouldn't have spoken like that, wasn't being fair, he was stressed etc

My reaction I suppose has been to try to protect them from this by downplaying it. 'Oh, your dad's being ridiculous - let him blow off steam and he'll calm down.' or making excuses 'he's gone out for a little walk to calm down' (when I'm silently panicking because he's taken a bottle of whiskey and the car keys). I'm frightened that addressing the whole thing directly with the dcs makes it a bigger, scarier, harder to deal with problem for them than playing it low key.

Also, I'm struggling to decide what the dcs should know and what we should protect them from. e.g. I don't want them to know about the suicide threats, it's a terrible fear to live with that one day I will come home and find that he's finally done it. (I always check the bedroom when get home in case there's a body Sad) but they are old enough to know that depression brings this risk.
I want them to know that dh is getting help and doing what he can (ADs, CBT) but I don't want to paint a false picture to them that everything's all going to be made better.

Dh agrees we should talk to them but wants it to be in a casual when the subject comes up, no big deal way. The dcs have never asked anything since I told them dh had depression (scared of the answers perhaps?) so how would the subject come up? He is scared too about discussing it openly. It's taken him this long to talk to me and he finds it incredibly distressing to discuss what got him here (ie an emotionally abusive childhood).

Lastly, once we'e broached the subject with the dcs where can we get that outside support/ therapy from for them? CAMHS? School? Private family therapist? We don't have spare cash - one of the many stresses.

OP posts:
garlicBreathZombie · 26/10/2011 18:12

In my opinion only, it's a matter of how far you're prepared to normalise it with your DC. Long-term damage gets done by the values children see enacted around them. Conflict between those and stated values makes the problem worse.

Since your family isn't "normal", the challenge is to present this to DC as a known fact and give them comprehension of why that is, what would be more normal and how to deal with the abnormality.

Personally I feel that down-playing the awfulness of your husband's episodes would be damaging for them. You wouldn't want them growing into adults who consider that kind of mega-strop desirable in a relationship. (Chances are they'd either act like that themselves or pick partners with histrionic mental health problems.) Just telling them it's not okay won't cut any ice; they'll benefit from support in deciding for themselves how they choose to respond.

The message they've been getting so far, tacitly and overtly, is that it's normal and acceptable for an adult to behave like this, isn't that bad anyway, we don't talk about it and aren't allowed to have a problem with it. For the sake of their future mental & emotional health, I think that must change.

It will, actually, now you've got your head out of the sand :) A specialist will be able to guide them in working out their feelings over past episodes and their standpoint going forwards. As their parents, you two are part of the problem so an experienced third party is desirable. Kids often resopnd really fast to counselling, so it might not take long at all. Do, please, ask the school and GP for any recommendations or referrals ...

... and, again, well done!

PurpleLostPrincess · 26/10/2011 19:13

WOL, I just wanted to say that you're not alone!

My DH has suffered with MH problems since childhood and had a very traumatic upbringing. The diagnosis that was given when we got married was anxiety/depression/PTSD/OCD and agoraphobia. I had no idea how serious it was until we got married and the first year of our marriage was so hard!

As the years went by, I told him that I realised that he was manipulating me and milking his illness - he admitted that he did and knew that he was just getting away with it for as long as I let him!

As the years went by, he tried working, but on the 3 times he tried, he ended up having massive breakdowns involving him staying in bed for days on end, and generally not functioning at all. He would often threaten suicide, but thankfully the kids were young enough then not to witness his outbursts. I totally empathise about the small things that seem to trigger him and know what you mean. I did the usual panic and tried to talk him round - often had to make sure there were no knives local to him, hide tablets etc. Thank the Lord above he doesn't drive!

I won't bore you with all the other details, but in 2009 things came to a head and I couldn't cope any more with everything going on, especially his addiction problem. I had given him 2 weeks to give up or move out - he clearly didn't believe I would go through with it, but I did. Around this time, he overdosed on diazepam and I called 999 - he was unconscious at the time and was furious with me when he woke up to paramedics in the lounge! This triggered the crisis team becoming interested - was a massive relief, but didn't really achieve anything because he didn't want help. But, it told him that I was getting serious and wouldn't let him isolate me into dealing with him anymore.

The day I threw him out, he pulled the whole suicide thing on me and I remember telling him it was his problem - loads of people over the years have told me that if somebody threatens it, they won't do it. I told him to go, he walked out the back gate and I broke my heart. I honestly thought he was going to kill himself and that I'd never see him again.

Well, I did see him again, and he moved out for 3 months, sorted out his addictions of the time, that was over 2 years ago and he hasn't tried to threaten suicide once since then. I wouldn't say he is 'better', in fact I don't think he will ever be better. Many things changed, some haven't. I truly believe he has BPD too as he ticks all the boxes for it, but only he can push for a re-diagnosis, I can't do that for him because I'm not his nurse or psychiatrist. Thankfully, it coincides with the kids getting older, so they've not witnessed anything in their older years either, although they are aware of his illness. My only sadness is that they see him unemployed and incapable of leading a 'normal' life. Your thread has prompted me to see if there's anything I can do about it...

I've waffled away here, not sure if it has made any sense... I guess I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone and that there are many of us out there struggling to support our loved ones with MH problems, as well as trying to be a family. We did have a thread at one point but unfortunately I've lost track of it - I'll see if I can dig it out, if you haven't found it already!

I wish you all the best - remember that you are a beautiful swan - elegant and beautiful and calm above the surface, paddling like crazy to keep afloat underneath the surface!

CactusRash · 26/10/2011 19:44

I can understand why you don't want to talk to your dcs bout the suicide therats. However, I have a good friend whose H had some MH issues. Depressed again and again except that there has been a time when ot really got worse/bad. Lots of episodes of him 'losing it'.
Her dcs were teenagers to (similar ages than yours).
Then one day, after threatening suicide a few times, he actually did something and killed himself. My friend doesn't think he 'really' wanted to do it but in some ways it doesn't matter.
The dcs had seen their dad being unwell, reacting in 'strange ways' and knowing he was ill has been a big thing for them to accept what has happened. And also to accept what was going at home at the time.

Now from what you are saying, her DH was much worse than your H is. It was at a point where she didn't want to leave him on his own so had famili/friends organize to pop over & check when she was at work.
But my point is really that talking about what is going on, both together and yourself on your own is really necessary. Also not downplaying the severity of the situation. If you really think your H does believe what he says at the time, you need to treat it like and adjust your talk to the dcs. You need to tell them their dad is really ill.

CactusRash · 26/10/2011 19:45

Sorry, stupid computer, wasn't meant to press 'enter'....
Will reread and modify as needed.

CactusRash · 26/10/2011 19:55

OK to make it clearer, you need to try and have a clearer idea yourself about the severity of the situation and keep the dcs in the loop. They do need to know their dad is depressed at the very least and that when his behaviour is strange, it's because of the illness.
Let them know it isn't acceptable but that at the same time this is coming from his illness.

TheyCallMeMimi · 26/10/2011 21:28

WOL, you're not alone. I can identify with 'checking for a body' and the 'whisky and car keys' thing too - been there. Tough isn't it? Good on you for trying to get some third party help for the children, I think that's a smart move. Do the wider family (assuming either of you have one) know what's going on at all? You need to get some help for yourself too you know - you are superwoman of course, but even superwoman can't do everything, all at once, and all the time. so talk to the GP about you as well as about the DCs.

luciadilammermoor · 26/10/2011 21:57

My sympathies to you OP. You've had some good advice and support here, I'm not entirely sure that the effect on the DC has been fully appreciated here, although I can see that you are so aware and thoughtful of their needs and this must be a very hard thing for you all to go through.

My father is/was like this, to a T, with depression. I cannot tell you exactly what it was like to grow up with this going on in the house because I have blanked a lot out of my memories - and although I did not leave home early, I withdrew mentally and emotionally from my whole family from the age of 15 and due to other (semi-related) issues, we are no longer in contact.

What I can tell you is that I struggled to bear the atmosphere, the bared teeth, the constant, constant negativity/criticism and snapping and tantrums/suicide threats/walking out/my mother pleading with him to calm down/come home/etc. I went to school to escape home and I came home to escape school. He used to use me to offload all his emotional needs as 'he was so let down by my mother'. When he had revealed too much, he would buy me expensive presents. I can see now this is emotional blackmail/manipulation but I am 36 now and it took me so so long to understand that this was not normal.

I appreciate that you are different to my mother, I can see that from your posts and your love and protective concern for your DC shines through. Counselling may help them deal with 'it', but living within this 'walking on eggshells' atmosphere while growing into adults stunts emotional growth and development. If anything I just want to say that the DC will have been more aware than you know of this behaviour for a long time and it can severely damage people.

Good luck to you all though. I really hope you find a way through this.

lottiegb · 27/10/2011 08:29

Hi WOL, well, I'm not the best person to suggest what help might be out there because I didn't have any but it sounds as though something for you and something for the DCs could be useful. There will be charities e.g. Rethink who'd be worth a call and may be support groups / networks. Your GP may be able to advise and offer counselling, or CAB but I'd search the web too.

It sounds as though your husband is starting to be able to talk about the difference between the depression and the histrionic behaviour. That's important because, as you've discussed above, the manipulation is not necessarily part of the depression and shouldn't be wrongly portrayed as such to the DCs. He needs to think about what he is imposing on them, as well as you, recognise that this needs to be explained to them, and seek diagnosis / treatment for these problems. I suspect there may be help available that could make a lot of difference, coping strategies etc, if he wants to stop doing this.

From my recollected child's perspective, I'd say that what the DCs need most is some basic information, which gives them a source and contact to come back to and add to later, if they want. They need to know there is a problem, that it has a cause (they may be concerned about inheritance) and that steps are being taken to address it as far as possible and to manage what remains. They probably won't want lots of detail, lengthy discussions or to feel burdened by the whole thing as they could perceive that as more of an imposition on their lives than the illness itself. They musn't be made to feel reponsible for looking after their father. It's also important to understand that, while everyone else can be as supportive as possible, responsibility for managing his own illness lies ultimately with your husband. That's a harsh truth - if afflicted with misfortune you have to deal with it, however unfair - but it is true (in life of course, not just illness).

On the suicide risk, I don't think I'd tell them about the threats. That's partly because they are threats, to you, and part of the histrionic / manipulative behaviour which he can choose to address, so they could diminish or disappear.

That doesn't mean he will necessarily stop being a suicide risk, though I'd hope your sense of the likelihood of this will, reasonably, diminish. As far as the DCs are concerned it's probably enough to know that depression comes with a risk of suicide (I don't know about personality disorders), though this depends a lot on its severity and good management.

This may seem a grim thing to say, I hope it seems worth mentioning, as an aside, not intended to be at all fatalistic. When my mother died I found this much easier to accept and deal with because I'd long known it was possible. It was a shock but not a surprise. I was angry about circumstances which made it preventable but also recognised that was only true until the next time she was very ill, or the time after that. I didn't experience the 'disbelief / denial' stage of grief because I did believe it was real and had happened. I also didnt feel any sense of guilt or responsibility, something people usually do with suicide (even the most distantly associated people, who wonder if they could have 'done something', usually because they mistake suicide for a rational decision and have least awareness of the illness). I see my mother dying from her illlness as little different from someone with cancer dying from that.

On a more positive note, I know lots of people who have or have had depression. They've used a variety of therapies, drugs and the natural remedies - exercise, good diet, sleep, friendships, solid relationships. The ones with reactive depression (to childhood circumstances) have largely got past it and others have found good management strategies and prevented further episodes or improved over time too.

cestlavielife · 27/10/2011 10:56

first stop go to GP adn ask whaty services are available -you might eb able to go together as a acoupld tos ee a family therpaist and talk jointly about how to boach th subject with teh chidlren - depends where you lvie as tow hat is available.

with my exP we had "family therapy" and some of it was trying to broach those issues - eg they would ask him "how do you explain your depresison to teh children?" tog et him to think of how to do this; however as exP wasnt having any of it it didnt work out realy. but those kind of services are availabel a nd if you h is willing to engage then go together.

now i am approaching local child psychology/counselling service for my dd as she has v conflicting feelings - missing her dad but also not wanting to be alone with him due to his past behviours, so she cant have meaninglful contact anyway.

first stop: go to your GP, book a double appt so you can talk at length about the issues and for GP to refer you (and H) to whatever services are available localy ie family therapist etc - if you as parents can get some support/advice as parents you can then consider if DC also need direct support .

cestlavielife · 27/10/2011 10:57

can ica tch it like a cold is a good starting point for the dc to read

www.amazon.co.uk/Can-Catch-Like-Cold-Depression/dp/088776956X

Can I Catch It Like a Cold?: Coping with a Parent's Depression [Hardcover]
Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (Author), Joe Weissmann (Illustrator)

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