DH punishing me with his depression??

[Wifeoflaugh]

I posted this in MH on another thread but I'm trying here for a bit more input. All thoughts welcome.

Dh has had depression for years. Things have been much more bearable and our relationship much better since he started citalopram (been on it 3 years now).

My problem: Most of the time dh is outwardly apparently 'normal' although he gets stressed and low at times. And most of the time we get on very well and support each other dealing with our dcs. But every now and then if I do something that he sees as 'nagging' or 'humiliating' him he threatens suicide. The nagging/humiliating can be incredibly trivial e.g. tonight I asked him (in a friendly enough and not stressy voice) not to eat roast potatoes out of the dish with his fingers and use a fork. He said 'I don't do that' and the dcs both said 'yes, you do dad, you just did it,'. This he interprets as me humiliating him in front of the children, 'everyone is against him' and therefore life is not worth living. Another time the trigger was me grumbling that he hadn't replaced a loo roll when he'd used it up.

He has not made open suicide threats in front of the children but he lies on the floor muttering under his breath ("no point going on" etc) and/or storming off and threatening never to come back. Of course this terrifies me and upsets the children and so I end up begging him to 'come back' and pleading with him to accept my apologies. This has happened about once every 2 or 3 months for the past year and each time it's when I have been mildly irritated about a trivial matter and have expressed this to him. I'm not a saint and probably I sometimes I show irritation out loud which translates to him as nagging.

But I am starting to feel manipulated. It feels like my punishment for daring to express any irritation is an automatic 'now look what you've done - you've made me want to kill myself.'

I don't know whether to take this seriously. Is he so depressed that such a tiny thing really tips him over the edge? Or is he using his illness to punish me for annoying him? I don't think I can be a patient saint every minute of every day. Other events such as an unexpected big bill and a problem at work do not seem to have this effect on him even though they are highly stressful.

AAGGGGGHHH. Advice desperately needed.

But the OP knows there's no chance of him killing himself - he's just an attention seeker. That's why she shouldn't call 999.

Hmm. If nobody ever said "s/he's just an attention-seeker" there would be far fewer suicides. I agree the evidence all points well away from any intention to do the deed in this case but - and it's a big "but" - that appraisal ought to be made by professionals.

Repeated threats of suicide are a symptom of serious mental health problems, regardless of other behaviours. They are not a usual symptom of depression, not with these histrionics, neither are they a 'normal' form of manipulative behaviour.

As ItsMe said, her ex went from threatening to kill himself to threatening to kill her. How long do you put up with living in a tornado of emotional instability before you recognise that it is insane urgently abnormal?

Just to enforce what others are saying about manipulation...

... it's not a hard and fast rule by any means, but definitely just stop and ask yourself if he would have thrown himself to the floor if his brother told him to change the loo roll, or his mother, or his boss, etc etc. If you think he would refrain from killing himself in those circumstances, he is almost certainly just tantrumming at you for attention.

He is unhappy (depressed, or BPD, or whichever) and is flailing about because he doesn't know any other way of reacting other than temporarily displacing his guilt/unhappiness away from himself and onto you, so he can escape his own 'failures' for a while.

Good God

People really live like this ???

Yes. It was my life for a while.

Sometimes this board makes me feel quite functional, AF
... and that's really saying a lot.

I am speechless. And that is saying a lot.

Thats not depression.

I have suffered from depression for 8 years, have had two breakdowns one two years ago this month, mine was so bad, I hid in the house for three years.

At it's worse I would cry constantly for weeks at a time, contemplate suicide every hour.

When you get that bad you call the doctor and say your medication is not working.

They changed mine, I've been working now for 5 months, haven't cried for six months, and haven't felt suicidal for a year.

He is choosing when to be down, using it to make himself feel better and you feel bad.

He has got used to being ill, and does it so you feel sorry for him.

He is using his illness to his advantage consciously, no one who is really suffering does that.

I'm so glad you're feeling better now Fabby. You sound as though you went through a hell of a time.

Hey Imperial! Im much better thank you!

Depression doesn't come and go, its with you all the time when you have it.

Albeit some things do set you off. People who are serious about suicide though never tell anybody, those that do seek attention, reassurance, sympathy.

That's not quite right, Fabby - the vast majority of suicides have told more than one person, more than once. The popular myth that "people who talk about it don't do it" makes everyone else feel more comfortable, but is a life-threatening lie. A teenage girl suicided a couple of years ago "out of the blue" and her mother was all over the press, saying DD was always pulling attention-seeking stunts like that I never saw a word of public criticism for the mother, who probably contributed to the girl's death with that attitude :(

The man in this thread, though, seems to be acting histrionically more than anything but it's not normal., even for a mentally-ill person. With your experience, would you say he might have an underlying personality disorder? I know you can't diagnose from a forum post! But I'm interested in your take on it.

Or maybe he's just playing the plonker, since DW seems to have been buying it up until now.

I'm going to maybe depart from everyone else here a bit.

When I was depressed, years ago, I could indeed go into a tailspin over the tiniest things. If I came home and there was no bread, it was like the end of the world. The only way I can explain it is that I would try so hard all day to work, interact with people, keep it together, and then that one little thing was just the last straw and the whole house of cards would fall apart.

But, I was single and living alone at the time. I could go off and have a meltdown and no one would know.

It's possible your husband's feelings are genuine, but he has a responsibility to shield his family from these very disturbing feelings. You should be making a plan for how to deal with these episodes while he is feeling okay. Perhaps when he feels like this, the rule is that he must go into your bedroom and keep to himself until it passes. This is really the only fair thing for the rest of you.

If he won't follow this rule, then next time he threatens to leave -- let him. I know it will be hard but you can't keep the situation going as it is.

I also think that if you have any money at all even if you have to cut back you should get him into private counseling. You need a proper diagnosis for what he has -- a GP can't tell you, an online questionnaire can't tell you, and 4 20-minute sessions of CBT is not enough for a definitive diagnosis either.

You can't let this situation continue. He has to get better. I'm sorry to be harsh, but you are really doing a number on your kids by letting this situation go on like this.

blimey that's long, sorry

Mostly, abusive men who threaten to kill themselves are never so obliging as to actually do it. But I do think that you need to get this one out of the family home until he's had treatment to get his condition under control. Yes he's ill, boohoo, but you and the DC matter too and his illness does not mean that the rest of you have to dedicate your entire lives to managing his moods, indulging his whims and turning yourselves inside out to avoid his tantrums.

I have Borderline Personality Disorder, I'd not say the OP's partner has that at all.

However he is playing on his illness.

I don't believe he would attempt to take his own life, and yes some people do talk about it, I have and I attempted it to, but I didn't want to die I wanted to be loved, I wanted things to change.

I have been a moderator on a Mental Health Forum whereby I have seen repeatedly the same posters state they are going to attempt suicide, they do take overdoses, they also tell people they are doing it.

But - this is my take on it. If I wanted to take my life I'd walk in front of a moving train becuase it would work, Id not take pills because that may not, if you definately want to die you do it so you do, not so that you might.

"the OP knows there's no chance of him killing himself - he's just an attention seeker. That's why she shouldn't call 999."

well she doesnt know for sure does she? so she should call his bluff.

the only way the H will change his behaviour is when the reaction to it changes - so he doesnt get the attention he wants (begging and pleading from his W) but gets profressionals actually asking him "hey man what's up? do you need help?"

he the H has to want private counselling.
he has to want to live differently.

clealry he has been diagnsoed with something as has CBT/Ads.

the op and her teens should go talk to GP/counsellor about the situation. let the DC talk openly to someone.

op would also benefit from some CBT to think of strategies for dealing with his tantrums etc.

and to understand she is not repsonsible for him. even if he does commit suicide, she will not be responsible for this .

if you have not done so already op read depression fallout anne sheffield
www.depressionfallout.com/

and go on the message board and search for "setting boundaries"

www.amazon.co.uk/How-Survive-When-Theyre-Depressed/dp/0609804154/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319535254&sr=1-1

you set the boundaries. if h tantrums - he goes to his room (as was suggested) for example

I find this interesting from a number of personal angles and think you've had a lot of good advice here. The thing that really stands out for me though is the effect this behaviour will be having on your children and the need to address this.

Children understand far more than they can articulate. They also infer meaning from others' behaviour, emotions and the shape of the gaps left by what goes unsaid. They will be selective about they reveal, to whom and will be saving a lot of partially understood material for later comprehension / revelation which could be shocking, uncomfortable and alter relationships much later on.

I think the first thing to do is talk do your husband when calm about the effect his behaviour may have on the children, ask him to consider this for himself, then how it can be managed and gain agreement that he will not throw tantrums in front of them.

If he cannot place their well-being and happiness above his own, so see the point of protecting them from the worst of his experience, he's not much of a Dad and my view of him in relation to the children would change accordingly.

From the perspective of his behaviour, I can see a problem with you suggesting the 'go to his room' approach, though good, which is that he may feel you and the children will then talk about him, gang up on him, or you are seeking to use the idea of 'their interests' to your own ends or actually manipulating them against him. He needs to be able to see this from their point of view to understand why removing himself from the scene is the right thing to do - though empathy with others may not be his strength.

You seem to have managed things well so far, in that they know he has an illness and that you are willing to talk to them about this. It sounds as though you are a close family and have avoided prompting the children to take sides. Has he talked to them about his illness at all?

As well as being able to talk to you, it might be helpful for them to be able to talk to a knowledgeable third party and to have that person, or someone else (a family friend) 'on call' as their own confidante, when needed. That could help a lot with their being able to separate illness from person, so be a bit more detached and objective about his worst moments, while maintaining a solid relationship with him as a father.

Wife, our DHs must have been separated at birth. I am currently awaiting a counselling appointment for myself. DH has been treated for depression for 3.5 years. Meds not working. Has counselling and psychotherapy - no help (he says). He attempted suicide one evening when I was due back from a business trip. Apparently, the thought of not seeing me "for 3 days" (actually 1 night) was too much for him (he told me much later). So, the idea of him punishing me (for not being there) I can well identify with. Anyway, I dialled 999. Cue ambulance, then police, then police dogs, then A&E...

I've found the responses on this post really helpful too.

I've suffered from depression since I was 13 and I have to say I have never acted like this. When I've been suicidal I've kept it to myself and have only brought it up when I'm ready to make an attempt (only once thank God). And as long as my medication is working then I'm generally hunky dory unless I'm going through a particularly stressful period. A bit of nagging from DH would never be enough to push me into a total downward spiral to the point of contemplating suicide, unless it's on top of a lot of other crap that's going on.

However, just because that's how I behave, it doesn't mean your husband will behave the same way. Everyone handles depression differently.

From your post it sounds like he has issues handling conflict and the resulting emotions from them. I would suggest actually going to a psychologist and asking them to teach your DH ways to handle his feelings and better ways to respond to "nagging." A psychologist might also help you find ways to handle these moods of his.

I had a psychologist after my attempt that taught me some great ways to "snap" myself out of a depressive mood, and I still use them now almost ten years later.

Nope, Penguin! I've lived in both types of culture. In your highly-expressive society, "Don't eat with your fingers!" might get a lively response like "Why not? God gave me the perfect tools when he gave me fingers! Look! Delicious!! With my fingers I can roll thil lovely potato around, admire its golden colours, feel its tempting outer crunchiness, then, look! I squeeze ever so gently and its softly yielding texture hints at the inner fluffiness to come! Don't be so repressed! Yum yum!!"

Actually, eating with your fingers is such a shocking solecism where I lived, even the beggars don't do it. But that's not the current point. Yes, someone would have thrown themselves to the ground and torn their hair if a lover had just dumped them or something (they had a lot of lovers ...) but emotional expressiveness doesn't mean inappropriate hysterics.

We should also bear in mind that folks adjust to the culture they're living in. This one's living in Britain.

Gutted: Just spent 45 mins typing epic reply (am ham-fisted typist). It's gorn.

I wanted to let you know how much I appreciate all the advice and comment and it has been immensly helpful.

Dh and I have spent the last night and today talking things through and reading about borderline PD. It fits him to a tee on 5 of the 7 diagnostic criteria. As dh said 'scarily accurate'. But we've agreed label or not is not really the point, it's what happens next. He had his last CBT session today and asked his therapist. She said she wasn't qualfied to diagnose or advise but has given him reading material and he knows he can go to the GP again for more in depth support.

I know this talking is not going to solve things or make dh 'better' but it has given me (and dh) major things to think about and perhaps that's what has to happen,

Other things:

dcs- yes, we must talk to them more, Of course they are picking up on more than I am admitting. But what the hell do we say except it's not your fault and we love you? I think the idea of an outside therapist for them is excellent.

suicide risk - yes, I think dh is genuinely a risk. Reading about BPD it seems that the impulsiveness is what leads to the catastrophes so very minor triggers can have terrible consequences. As dh says, he means it when he says it.

999- yes, I will phone if I think he is genuinely acting on his threats. And I have been ready to do so before.

culture - yes, his country tends to diplay emotion far more dramatically than I'm used to but I don't think this is an excuse. Shit behaviour is shit behaviour.

Us - so far an agreement that he will try to consider the triggers for his behaviour and be aware of the patterns he is falling into (from his mother ) and an agreement he will seek more help if he can't control this on his own. Things are not all bad. We've been together 20 years and most of the time we enjoy each others company. Dh is loving and caring most of the time.

Me - sceptical

Thank you for your very interesting update, Wife. It's really good to see you've now gained some much-needed perspective. Also reassuring to hear you're going to put your DC in front of someone who can give them the right tools with which to process this madness!

I suspect DH would/will benefit from both proper medication and tuition (therapy) in understanding & coping with his condition. I kind of share your scepticism, but wouldn't underestimate the significance of his new awareness. It's hard for a PD sufferer (or any mentally-ill person) to grasp how their reality differs from everyone else's, so he's made a big step there. Hope he goes forward successfully.

If your only outcome turns out to be more crises, keep posting!

You sound remarkably clear-sighted about it all, OP.

Yes, telling DC that you love them, that their parents' behaviour is not their fault, keeping firm and consistent boundaries on their own behaviour, are the best things to do. An outside therapist is a wonderful idea.

Your plan for dealing with future suicide threats, and your agreement with your husband that he will seek more help if he can't control his damaging behaviour on his own, are also wise. As is your refusal to have a rose-tinted view of the way going forward.

I wish you all the best.