Am I the only here who has put blanket on eyes and chosen to stay in troublesome marriage for the sake of children?

[confusedperson]

We have been together for 5 years and have two DC under 4. If I was to follow Mumsnet advice, I would have divorced him long time ago. I am main earner, main decision maker the one with most household duties. He earns little, is studying part time and is trying to pursue his career, while looking after our DC 3 days in a week. He is a not good parent (not consistent, lets DC watch too much TV so he can sit on computer, does not take them out). He is a bit boring as companion, does not talk much, does not make jokes, and does not engage well into conversations. We hardly spend any time together (partially because he works shifts). Also, I caught him on dating website recently, but his activity there was random and looked more out of curiosity, and it seems to have died out.
I liked in the beginning because he was and is hardworking (when he has a proper job), very tidy, neat, not demanding towards me in any manner, not going out with friends, a bit shy and not flirty manner, cleans after himself, takes care after children?s basic needs without reminding (nappy, food, bathing), complies with whatever rules I set in the house, gives the share of money that I ask (I ask a reasonable amount). Our sex life is regular and not bad (not very exciting though).
Basically, when I say it out loudly, he seems useless. I used to argue with him about it a lot, but I have learnt to detach myself emotionally, make decisions on my own and ask for his help where needed (should ask even more though). It sounds like a single motherhood, but I almost enjoy it, having all the responsibility for decisions. He is out for night work 3-4 nights a week, and I enjoy that time to my own. When he is in, I don?t mind, it is nice to have someone around for a small bit of conversation (actually we are both quiet people) or getting some help with children. We do not argue anymore, because I let him function on his own (most of time) and he usually helps when asked. He cooks, washes and irons for himself (we like different foods). On rare occasions we go out together to a restaurant or another town, but more likely I would leave DC with him and enjoy my cup of tea with a female friend.
He has broken my trust on couple occasions regarding money (like taking too many credit cards for whatever reason), but it didn?t do any material harm to me and hasn?t taken any further, and am just not interested in his financial matters anymore. We have separate budgets, the house is mortgaged on my name, I gladly put aside some odd money to my savings account, and I?d rather don?t know about his debts, if any (I suspect some few hundreds debt on his credit cards).
So we function fine, albeit mostly separate, on daily basis. Obviously DC enjoy having daddy around and they do no see any arguments or odd silences. I do not suffer emotionally (in an obvious way), but I understand that my expectations of having a family were different, and this is not how a family should be. I think I still have some feelings for him, but not sure whether is more sympathy or love. He has long term medical condition which could make his life shorter, and also he is still struggling to pursue his career. I sometimes feel sorry for him but this is not what keeps me with him. I just find it convenient. I don?t want to harm children. I think for breaking the marriage, you have to have a major reason, or feel really unhappy. I convinced myself, that if I am truly not happy, I will divorce, but that moment has not come yet. I wonder if I just blocked my emotions away?
I was married once before and my marriage lasted for 6 years (no children) I cheated on my xDH on several occasions. I was behaving immature and irresponsible. xDH forgave me, but later we split up (other reasons). One thing I realised that I was making mistakes and my xDH was kind enough not to dump me then. I learned a lot and became a responsible family person. Now, I can see that my DH is making lots of mistakes, but I just think that he has to learn in his own way? We will probably never be the most compatible people, but I don?t mind, as long as we have something in common and allow each other breath.
I am a bit afraid that I am blinding myself and wasting my time for something that could be fundamentally wrong. Have I put blanket on my eyes, or there are some of you who managed to live in a similar way, or came out the better way? Please share your thoughts.

Also the children when adults could well turn around and ask you why you stayed with what they saw as a deadbeat father and H to you. If you say, "well it was for you" they could well call you a silly cow and wonder aloud why you put him before them.

You show me a married person who says they're happy 24/7 and I'll show you a liar.

D'you know Garlic, that has always been something that winds me up - this image of victorian families as emotionally stunted unhappy people. I suspect that in the early part of the twentieth century, a disproportionate number of people with bad families had access to the media, writing books, letters, memoires etc., which were published and which built a picture of a stern, authoritarian, unloving Pater Familias and a fainting, dysfunctional Mama who would faint occasionally on the chaise longue, which has now entered folk-memory. And I've always been a bit sceptical that this is indeed a true picture of how the Victorians et al lived.

yes - Atilla - good point- imagine your adult children not wanting to come and visit the pair of you, because your home/atmosphere/life is so bleak/bitter/joyless

Nobody is ever happy 24/7 rycooler, that is a childish idea.

But some of us are truly, genuinely happy in our day to day lives and feel happy and contented most of the time. And are not looking to change it, not because of inertia or fear or nervousness of might be on the other side, but because things are good the way they are. But we have no fear of change either, because we know that change might also be good. The joy of possibilities. [hsmile]

bejeezus, I can hardly stand to be in my mother's house. It has nothing but unhappy memories for me. I hardly ever visit her there, she either comes to mine or we meet somewhere else, at another relative's or whatever.

c'mon rye - there is a BIG difference between a normal and mainly happy couple, who over the years have ups and downs - but who at heart LOVE and respect each other - and have moments of passion, are really close, have walks in the rain, share pasttimes and have a true connection - and a couple who simply don't care about each other - or worse, make each other mildly unhappy.

If I say - yes all couples argue and have problems - that is not the same as saying that people should stay in unhappy relationships. What is missing from the OPs relationship is friendship and love - and that's pretty important. Also missing is honesty and respect - she says he is scared of her - thats horrible. She snoops on his internet use and he is checking out other women -that's horrible too. They share no interests or passions, there is no love.

I am excited when my partner comes home each day! i love him to bits and we are always planning what we want to do, getting excited about joint ventures....

That is really not a happy relationship - and it's too easy to just say 'oh all couples have their ups and downs'. there are ups and downs in a basically loving relationship...and there is a non relationship held together by fear of what might lie outside....

and I completely agree about the children turning round later and being unhappy with the choices their parents made...you really can't predict how things will blow up in your face if you try to ignore them.

Uppity

as a mother, to have my children feel like this, would kill me;

I can hardly stand to be in my mother's house. It has nothing but unhappy memories for me. I hardly ever visit her there

As a parent you want to create a happy/safe place/memories

(no disrespect to your mother uppity)

God yes Bejeezus, if my children feel about coming home the way I feel about going to my mother's house (I don't think of it as "home") I will have fucked up good and proper.

This thread is similar to another one I read a while back, about whether it's better to stay for the sake of the children. My response then:

Interesting thread. This is what happened to my parents. They didn't bicker, they didn't openly show affection, they just got on with life, looking after me and my brother and were just mum and dad to us. We didn't see a daily life of 'very-much-still-in-love' type parents because you only have your own ones; we had nothing to compare them to. We thought all parents were like this (i.e. mainly plodding along). As kids you are so self-involved, it's rare that you sit down and think "is mum happy? Is dad fulfilled?" or not at least until you are a bit older and in your later teens. If they're not arguing, you just get on with things and are content, as a child.

In reality, my parents were not very happy, especially my dad. He almost left when my brother was 7 and I was 5. But he stayed for us. Worked on the marriage - it got a bit better, but they were always mainly friends rather than very in love (I learnt this a lot later when I was at University - my brother and I never knew about any of this at the time). My brother and I had an idyllic childhood - travelling the world as expats, going to international schools, visiting lots of different countries and experiencing things which a lot of children never get to. We were very lucky. If my parents had split up, I know it would have been very different. My brother and I would have stayed with mum in the UK whilst dad continued to travel the world; we'd have been fine, I'm sure, but having our parents together in a stable relationship (although not a romantic filled one) and us being able to travel and live with them both, made it a fantastic childhood. My brother, who is a bit more emotional than I am, would have not done very well I fear with a divorce and a mainly absent father.

So I think in my situation, the parents staying together was definitely in our best interests. And what about them? Well they split up when I was in my second year of university and my mum has mainly lived a quiet life in deepest darkest Norfolk and is still very bitter (she has always maintained she didn't want him to go and it was all his doing, the end of the marriage). She is ok, but this is not the twilight years she imagined. My dad on the other hand, is like an episode of Jerry Springer. He remarried an American, emigrated and took on a younger step daughter and step son. The son has been in and out of jail for domestic abuse and now lives in his dead father's trailer. The daughter is a complete waste of space who uses my dad for child care for her 1 year old daughter, and is now divorced from the (complete dickhead of a man) father and refuses to get a job so just sponges off my dad and my step mother. My dad argues so much with his wife about these kids, and other parts of their relationship, that he has turned to drugs and can be found in strip joints 3 nights a week and smoking meth. Now THAT is a marriage that he should get out of but he can't, because he says he genuinely loves her and can't give up on a second marriage. But he seems desperately unhappy to me.

Would he have been better off staying with my mum in a stable but not particularly loved up marriage? Looking at the status quo, I would say yes.

So that's going against the grain of the current thread, I know, but it's my experience.

UPDATE: Dad has now entered re-hab for the drugs in Texas. He is 63. I wish he still lived with my mum in Norfolk and that they were doing crosswords together like they used to! Oh for a quiet life...

I think a lot of them were unhappy & dysfunctional, Uppity - as prolific letter-writers, they left us plenty of evidence about it. The point is, though, they were trapped and that's what motivated them to act for social change. We now have the benefit of the changes they started, precisely so that couples like OP & H don't have to suffer like them.

My grandparents and their multitude of siblings were born between 1880 - 1910. There were screwed-up families amongst them, shocking social deprivation, marvellous privilege and true warmth. Happy Victorians/Edwardians wrote letters as well! We focus on the problems of the era because problems are the engines of change.

It's stupid to conclude there was nothing else, though ... the changes were mostly effected by functional people, the ones in happy & fulfilling families. And they acted for change because an emotionally-deprived life NEVER WAS desirable, then or now.

boobz- I remember your post from the other thread, because I found it interesting then - from my reading, it is your father who escaped the unhappy situation and your mother who has CHOSEN to remain trapped , bitter and unhappy. Perhaps your father would be better off alone - or not with this particular woman - perhaps he is living a life you don't approve of but at least he is living..>! Your mother does not have to be bitter or angry - I promise you, that is a choice. If they weren't happy for years then she can't complain that finally he left. Honestly - that is the price you pay for pushing unhappiness beneath the surface.

Has it occurred to you that your parents may have been infiniitely happier if they had split years ago and functionally moved forward with their lives? your mother would have had time to start again, your father might not have had so much suppressed desire in him waiting to be lived.

When I read your post I don't think it goes against the grain at all. It seems to me good evidence that you should act for your own interests and in that way will make sure your children are fine too. Why should your parents have thrown their lives away for your 'idyllic ' childhood - they are people too. You don't know what they really went through - and quite clearly it eventually crumbled, but by the time it did, they were a lot less able to move forward, because there was so mcuh water under the bridge and they were older.

TBH I would probably stay in a relationship like yours. I haven't had the opportunity, and I do worry about how that affects my children. I would talk to your partner about the internet dating thing, and possibly try to talk more in general, but actually I don't think there's anything wrong living together in a harmonious childcare cooperative situation rather than an intensely romantic marriage. My own parents did divorce- I don't think this was the best for us, though they were both extremely troubled people and there were huge problems between them (much more than you describe), but then being exposed to new partners was a problem, I don't think it made my mother happier to be a single parent, etc. However there was so much wrong with them that it probably wouldn't ever have been good either way, just a bit less isolated. I do feel that people treat relationships as disposable now, and it seems to make lots of people miserable.

Why do you not want more for yourself? Life is short you are both worth more than this. I could never live like that I have had 2 serious illnesses and it made me see the light!

I don't think this is a good time to make judgements on the relationship as there are so many other demands on your time, and his, just now - you have two children under four and he is working antisocial hours and studying whilst you are also working. If there is a chance his new career will lead to more time together as family life fits into a pattern, I would wait and see for a bit - I know a lot of couples who wouldn't be getting on as well as you are given how much you have on.

It sounds to me, both your relationship and defending of it, most like a friend of mine who had an arranged marriage. They entered into it with commitment instead of excitement, but she thinks it is a better option than chasing the romantic ideal of Western, modern cultures and is happy. I wouldn't be happy being her, but she wouldn't have wanted my life - it is okay for us to be happy with different things.

What do I think you should do - I would try to deal with the fear of being alone, so that if you stay together it feels more like a choice. I would also try to pinpoint exactly what you would like to be different, as people want different things (one person's affectionate is another person's clingy). If you are both naturally more independent, I would try to stop seeing it as a character failing or something your relationship will change - were you happier in past relationships? Good luck, I hope you manage to work through how you are feeling and figure out what to do for the best.

Thank you again for passing me various ideas.
If someone implies that my parents should have divorced, that is very, very wrong. I don?t think either of them would have been happier, because they are truly happy now.
I think I got a bit angry by reading some of your posts? commenting self respect and love and friendship? maybe because I still have feelings for DH and ideally would like my marriage to work out.
I think I am lucky in a way that I manage to make my marriage functional (at least for myself), and while some of you think that I use DH as a childcare, well he is the father!
My conclusions so far: I will not rush into divorce because I am not ready, completely not divorce; will try to arrange a Relate session for myself; will find a good time and discuss with DH, what he thinks about our future?
I tend to believe that the atmosphere in our house is OK and not miserable, despite of what everyone on MN thinks.

Hi waterrat. Yes he escaped the unhappy situation eventually, as I think he was always looking for something a bit more passionate, and that's what he found with his new wife. But it has led to him being borderline suicidal, clinically depressed and much more unhappy than when he was plodding along with my mum. I know it's the luck of the draw who you meet and fall in love with, and he is has been unlucky (or maybe you make your own luck?), but I definitely think he would have been better off with my mum than where he is now. Actually, he's probably much better off alone but he is one of those people that can never be alone, you know?

Yes my mother chooses to be bitter, and to be honest, I think she would still be a bit sour and bitter in her old age if still married to my dad. Again, that kind of personality type!

Of course I wonder if they had split up when we were 7 and 5 whether they would have been infinitely happier - probably the answer is yes. But the point I was making was, that it would have had hugely negative repercussions for my brother and I. I'm not saying they made the right choice for THEM back then (or my father, more accurately) but they made a huge sacrifice and a choice for US (the kids) which I think made us have the happy childhood we had. And I'm not saying the kids needs should supercede the parents, but I am saying I CAN understand why people stay together for the sake of the kids, based on my own experiences.

Sorry, not putting this very well.

Personally, I think I could not live like the OP is describing, and if I had been my dad, I would have probably left when my brother and I were small kids. But then I look at my DDs and I wonder actually if I ever could... (if I were NOT DESPERATELY unhappy, as the OP describes).

Oh I give up. I know what I mean.

boobz, it's your family so only you really know - but I still think you can't possibly know what life you would have had if they had split up. You might have been just as happy - and they would have been happy too. Now you are worrying about them both - wheras if they had sorted out their issues you might not be, they might be fine. And I really do think we make our own luck by the way.....your parents have made choices which involved shielding you from their unhappiness - now you can see it more clearly, perhaps it was always there.

And thats the thing - its not just about should I stay or should I go - it's about resolving your own issues - so you can be a whole person ...if we don't address the issues we have that compel us to make bad choices, we will blunder through life making them again and again. So - the OP needs to look inside herself and ask what she is afraid of discovering if she lifts that blanket!

RunnerHasbeen thanks for the positive word. It is not easy for us indeed, plus financial pressure, plus I am trying to study on my own as well? I do hope that there is a light in the tunnel once we have established ourselves. It doesn?t help that he has been totally unsuccessful with his career so far. You are asking if I was happier in the past relationships? I was married for 6 years, and we loved each other dearly, but I was too immature and too ?adventurous? at the time, and my husband was old-fashioned and expected from me what I couldn?t give. So basically I don?t think we were mature, when we matured then we became incompatible, but when we divorced, we still loved each other. But it didn?t help us to stay together.

but confused - people are reacting to your original description of your marriage as troublesome - and you yourself explaining that you spend no time together and would rather socialise with other people. You also say he has been checking out women online - and describe two people completely distant from each other. You say yourself you have covered your eyes - so I think it's unfair to be angry when people question whether you might be better off leaving. You do not describe a situation of respect or friendship - sorry, but you really don't.

If you want it to work try some counselling - both for yourself and between the two of you. If you really want to stay together and you want to be good role models for your children, you should be opening up to each other more and tryng to find common ground. Your children will eventually notice if you don't enjoy spending time together socially.

I dunno. When you get to my age, the half of couples who're still in their first marriage have weathered a few storms and are iredeemably past the in-love stage. There's a very large quota of compromise, tolerance and rubbing-along involved. They are not always as respectful to their spouses as they should be.

But they are not bleak. They don't live separate lives, like housemates. They get bored and angry, but not dispirited. They laugh and play together. They're often annoyed, sometimes resigned, but they like and enjoy one another; they benefit emotionally from their marriages, as well as materially.

Some of the marriages described on this thread seem tragically short of LIKING between partners. What's the purpose of that; living with someone you don't even like?

waterrat - I totally agree that my parents are people in their own right, and that they made choices which ultimately led them to be unhappy during their marriage (or my dad anyway) and then unhappy when he left it. As an adult now, I wish they had made different choices which would have made them happier in the long run.

I believe that if they had split up, my brother and I would have been ok, but we would have not have had the same wonderful childhood we had travelling the world. I can't say for sure, of course, but I think most people would say being brought up by both your parents in a stable family relationship whilst travelling the world together would have been better than living with my mum in the UK, never seeing my dad, and almost certainly my mum STILL being bitter and miserable and taking it out on us for the next X years (she said it wouldn't have mattered if dad had left when we were 7, she was never going to get married again as she wouldn't let it happen to her again). So although I wish they had made different choices to make themselves happier, I can see why they (he) didn't as his kid's happiness was a top priority (more than his own needs it turned out).

I agree the OP needs to really look at what is going on here and whether she is prepared to trudge along for the next x years - I'm not saying stay in it for the kids... I'm just saying I can see why people do, and I think I might make the same sacrifice for my kids if it ever came to it (not that I will have to - me and DH are AMAZING together).

I will bow out now. Good luck OP.

confused

Would you not agree that your DH has a nice and cosy arrangement within your marriage whilst you do all the donkey work?. He's quite happy as it is so he is unlikely to have any will to change things. He's also been onto a dating site even if you do think he only went there out of curiosity - did you believe his explanation afterwards?.

He does the childcare yes but you also describe him as not being a good parent. What does this man actually do within your home?. From what I am reading you live to all intents and purposes separate lives under one roof; you spend no real time together or communicate with any real honesty.

You've both let it get to this state; you're both responsible for the state of your marriage as it stands. I feel for your children in all this because they're the ones who will really cop the fallout from their parents disinclination towards each other.

Waterrat: I agree that there is a big difference if the love and passion is still there ( it is with us ) I don't know how I'd feel if I genuinely couldn't stand the sight of him anymore - I think I'd still stay with him if the children were happy ( ie: he was a good dad ) I'd put their happiness before mine, I'd just
develope a full and active social life for myself. It's not possible for one person to fulfil all your needs anyway - maybe we expect too much from our partners? - and maybe the reason some people are unhappy is because they're miserable gits themselves?

Also, I think the reason second marriages last longer than first ( if they do? - I may have just made that up? ) is that people try harder second time around .
?? finito

Marriage isn't easy, we all have good days and bad days (good years and bad years?).

I would say don't give up on yours yet. I think if your DH is willing you could both make some pretty small changes that would improve your marriage and maybe help you get to a place where you could talk about your unresolved issues. Sometimes when you make more of an effort to love someone through your actions the feelings follow on.

E.g. spend time together, do something nice for him, buy him a spontaneous gift etc.

Hopefully he will be willing to do similar.

I think you have some disappointments that it might be good to work through too. It's great to be able to forgive each other for past hurts/wrongs and not hang on to lasting resentment.

I have to say my DH and I don't really have any shared hobbies as such but surely everyone likes things like eating out, family days out, holidays, walks, films? It's more of a willingness to spend time together and take an interest in each other than a mutual obsession with zumba or star trek that's important in my opinion.

I hope things work out for you.