Scared my ex and his mother are trying to get residency of our son?

[sadandmoresad]

Hi I lurk a lot on these boards and did when I was going through my break-up with ex P. I have 2 children, the youngest is biologically his. I broke with him because of what I think was verbal and emotional abuse, although I realise I did escalate arguments a bit when I probably should have remained calm. But how calm can you remain when your P is calling you names and saying he will be "watching" you just for giving the children toast for breakfast (not a proper breakfast he said). there were many many incidences like this. He was lovely as long as no-one challenged him and everyone agreed with him on issues like childrearing etc, although he never tried to control me and did help in house etc and work ft he did try to control every aspect of childrearing and certain things and is very overbearing in general. His mum is hysterical at times (not just saying that) - she can be sickly sweet but hits out with things like "You care about money more than your children" "you are trying to steal money from my son" on no provocation once when I explained that childcare tax credits could not be halved and paid half to him as they are paid to the main carer that's just the way it works and what difference does it make as long as the childminder is being paid? also none of her business anyway.

Anyhow, I have left now.

On a few occasions since youngest was born (he is 2) ex-P (while we were together) during arguments threatened to take my son away, that I'm an unfit mother (not true), that "the boy would be better off with me, you can visit or see him when he is 16" and this terrifies me now that we have recently split that he may try to actually do this. He lives with his batty mother and between them they could have him full-time, as only he works f/t.

Here is the practicalities -

• DS 'officially' lives with me ie address, docs etc
• I get child benefit for him
• Initially I returned to work p/t when d/s 6 months and used childminder but when he was 9 months I went f/t and mother-in-law has him Monday to Friday 9-5 while I work.
• Both children go there every other Saturday lunchtime to Sunday night
• He has toys and clothes and personal items in both houses
• Both houses would be deemed suitable and are only 5 mins apart

What has been worrying me is that it used to be that DS would be dropped off at 5.30pm to me for dinner and play/bath etc and picked up the next morning at 8-ish before my work. But now mother-in-law has recently been DECIDING (with ex-P who is the only driver and probably can't be bothered stopping work to do drop off) on around 2 weeknights per week that she will just keep him overnight as she is too tired to collect him in morning. Sometimes they will give me the courtesy of asking, sometimes they will leave a text 'informing' me and sometimes they will just wait until I phone at 6 wondering where they are. Last Thursday this happened - I called because no-one had let me know (not confrontational) and MIL snapped "He's in bed now, if you want to come and take him out of bed you can. At least he will get a good breakfast". ex-P condoned it when I called him angry "she didn't mean it, I'm sick of you" etc.

I was livid, it seems they are trying to 'take over' in a way and because of his previous threats to get lawyers and take him, I am very wary of letting him stay but I strongly suspect all hell would break loose if I actually objected. I have said after Thursday that I can pick him up at 5.30pm if ex-P busy at work and also I will drop him off in morning if she is "too tired" so they don't have these excuses but I don't think they will listen at all.

Sorry that turned really long! If anyone has any advice or knowledge of what would be likely to happen if they did try it (there are no child protection issues either side) considering DS is there quite a lot? I am even willing to quit work or get other childcare if it comes to it, but don't want to unless necessary. Scared of the fallout from them as they can both be extremely nasty to me, although both kids love them. I'm still getting periodic snipes from ex-P about how bad as mother I am etc )-:

Thanks and any advice much appreciated. x x

People on here can give you advice but you need real life support. For starters stop telling your ex in advance what you're planning to do. It just gives him time to react. Then go and get some decent legal advice and look at your finances and what financial support would kick in if you eg dropped some hours at work. Then decide what you are going to do.

I know, friends have told me to keep my cards close to my chest. I seem to be doing that thing again where I am engaging with him as if he is a reasonable person , like most people. when he is not. and I need to get that drummed into myself!!! I have looked at finances and I could afford to drop to 3 days per week or leave work and go on benefits until this is sorted legally. But i couldn't take leave / sick as I don't get paid for that and would still be technically 'employed'

I am not sure how to advise you but I think you need to plan long term to move away from the area. I think one of the first steps is to stop telling him your plans, get support in real life including from your parents if possible - perhaps go to visit them and think up a plan. Then consult a solicitor and ask their advice about changing the child care arrangements, first you need to stop the overnights for your DD which should be easier - explain for example that she now has regular committments on a weekend - visiting a friend/swimming for example.

Then you need to arrange a childminder, get it all set up, possibly reduce your work hours so that you are around more to fight your corner and then put it in place. How you do that I am not sure.

Then with a solicitor's help you need residency/custody arrangements in place - ie he sees his dad every other weekend and one night per week - not the ex MIL (that is between your ex and his mother to arrange when he has your son).

Personally, I would be looking to move far away as suddenly as possible once you have established that you would have main residence (with a solicitor's help). I know this sounds a bit strong but I think you are in a dangerous situation and I would prefer to give up my job (you would get benefits) and regain control of the situation.

Jesus christ how chilling this all is!

You need RL support, you need CAB and you ultimately need to get the hell out of Dodge!

This duo is an abusive duo of the highest order!

Thanks Cants.

I know. I am fully prepared to give up my job for now anyway. I've lived on benefits before so I'm sure I can again if needs be.

I don't have any parents as such - my mum was a single mother and is deceased and I've never met my dad as he went back to his birth country shortly after I was born.

It's not getting childcare that would be difficult. It would be the hell I would get from them by putting DS in childcare (however trusted).

I have calmed down a bit now, although still upset. I think my plan should be -

*seek solicitor asap (ie tomorrow)
*get some help from hv (call tomorrow)
*TELL , not ask, MIL that I have cut some hours in work and that I will be having DS Mon, Tues and Wed. I will keep him going there 1/2 days a week to appease them for now (to lessen any big retaliations from them). I will keep in mind what others have said that she is not his parent therefore she cannot argue with this, and I highly doubt exP will give up his daytime full time job to take him (think he is relying on his mother doing childcare for him in his 'ideal' of the having DS fulltime)

• consider getting my best friend to take him whilst I continue working 4 days (telling MIL I am only working 2 now)? so I can save up to move. Won't be able to move otherwise as have no savings. They are highly unlikely to find out as my friend lives near my work - nowhere near them and we could just be visiting etc. if on a very small chance they see DS with her. I could be just round the corner (and am from her house from my work) *stop DD going there apart from very fleeting visits (so DD won't get upset)
• with help of solicitor, establish things so I have main residency and then move away (perhaps 30-40 mins or so away)

Does this sound ok?

I'm petrified. But I have to do something.

yes that all sounds like a very good plan. Moving away sounds like what I would aim for. The MIL has to have her influence broken. This is between you and your ex.

FAB plan love!

You can do this! really you can!

I am so f'ing scared though. But my best friend is right I think - she says I should "do it on the sly, gradually, don't let them know what you are thinking and let them think they still have some power" but she also said it may also have been a good idea to act all nice towards him, ask him back (he would probably come back but he is very verbally nasty at times, don't know if I could cope with that) as that would strengthen my case as both parents would stay in same home and exP would obviously live here so would be seeing DS here and the MIL would be largely inconsequential . She says I could wait until he is at least primary school age in 2 years time (when MIL's childcare will be redundant even if they tried, as DS will obviously be REQUIRED to attend school) and then the balance would swing in my favour. Then hopefully leave when enough time of MIL doing NO childcare has passed and all childcare done by school/afterschool. She had a similar situation with her ex-husband who was very controlling towards her (but had little interest in their kids) - she bided her time until the kids were in school and she could gain some independence and get a job and save up some money to move away. But her situation was different - she was married to him and he was a foreign citizen with all his family abroad. She was terrified he would take them back to his country to get back at her. He had arranged to come here 'under the radar' so she was really scared he would take them there the same way.

But people on here have made me see that is not a good idea. Because he is verbally abusive towards me (not making it up). The reason I have kept DS going there despite this is that he has never shown any signs of being verbal with either of the DCs and it is not so much explosive rage but more stealth under the breath comments and insults trying to crush my confidence, texts etc. But he really does let loose on me at times when no DC here, or same to a lesser extent when they are fast asleep. That's how I know it's deliberate and he can "help it". And I don't think I'm strong enough to get brought down any further by his random outbursts/verbal attacks on me. He is generally ok, as long as no-one asks him for much or challenges him. But that is ridiculous to have to live like that for the next several years. And the kids are not stupid. Even though they worship him and his mother, the effect they have on me will hardly go totally un-noticed.

I don't think you'll be able to stick it out for another 2 years - especially when it comes to sleeping with each other. I think you'd be better off quitting your job to fight for full residence. If you can't afford that (though you would get benefits) then your plan with your friend minding him is your best option. One way or another you need to stop your children going to your Mil's - not all at once right away but significantly and then more and more. Then you need residency set up for you and him fortnightly or maybe a bit more if you can trust him.

Yes. You are right, although sticking it out did seem like the "safest" plan with less risks of it getting nasty so long as exP 'thinks' I am together with him etc then DS would be residing with both parents and MIL would then largely be cut out when DS goes to school, and out of the picture when it comes to residency. It would have to be more than 2 years because I guess I'd have to demonstrate that DS had been here with me or at school/afterschool for the majority of the time for a while and only at MIL as little weekends as I could get away with. So that 'pattern' would need to become the norm, iyswim.

It would be soul-destroying for me though. And yes, sleeping with him falsely would be very very hard after all he has put me through.

I think ultimately I may have to quit my job whilst this is going on. DS will be at an age where he can tell his daddy etc where he has been that day "without mummy" in about 9 months to a year's time. However I could not save enough to move house whilst on benefits, so I will probably work and take up my friends kind offer of providing childcare in her house from 9-3 (so they won't know), save up a bit, and then go on benefits probably if this is still not resolved totally. x

Start keeping a diary. EVERY time one of them says you're an unfit mother, or that they will keep DS against your wishes, right it down.
If you turn up & they don't hand ds back to you, call the police (decide whether you will give them warning of this first)
If you are the main carer, it's up to you who takes care of your ds whilst you're at work, so any reasonable childcare provision is fine.

Ask a solicitor how the main carer is decided - I suspect that overnight stays are important. You can claim that MIL is just the childcarer, but that ds is resident with you. if he starts spending extra nights there, then that changes things.

Get a plan together - Can you move about 20 mins away, close to work, but further from them? You need to make sure that you have housing, childcare, income sorted. Then you can decide how much contact is suitable.

your ex-p is using the child to control you. how long before he tries to control the child as well? what would happen if your ds wanted toast for breakfast? how would his dad react? you do need to think about the influence of these people on your dcs.

You can insist on all contact being through a solicitor & that ex-p's access is supervised, with his mother there. you can also claim (but may well never see) child support.

sit down with a solicitor - they will have seen it all before - and tell them the WORST case scenario, then look at how to get what will make you & your dcs safe.

fwiw - a friend of mine ended up in quite a lot of debt in order to establish herself away from an abusive ex, and with legal fees etc. she'll be paying it off for the next decade BUT that money has made her & her dcs able to live a stable (though poor) life without emotional & verbal abuse. she sees it as the price of freedom. scary though it is, the cost of a good solicitor may well be the investment you need to make to get this situation resolved.

nods at kickass

Very good advice IMO
ESP about calling police when they refuse to return your child

Thanks kickassangel. x I have started keeping a diary a couple of weeks ago.

I can move around 15 miles away (going over towards my work) but would need a couple of thousand in savings to establish myself and cannot get a loan as really bad credit rating.

I will try for CSA but I was really persistent with it with my eldest's father who did not want much contact, and gave up after a year. only to be told when i went on benefit that "the state is providing for your child - you have not done enough to claim maintenance from your ex partner" by the advisor at jobcentre. erm well.... i have been calling every week for a year and giving them all his details including NI number etc!

I will go to the solicitor tomorrow. Today I popped in to the advice centre (no legal people but they have details etc) and they recommended a family law specialist.

Oh huni, what a nightmare.
Do not trust anything they say and do not tell them anything you are planning.
Honestly in your shoes I would leave my job, establish myself as unarguably the main carer and then move. Don't go back to him, he is abusive and so is his mother. Also don't delay doing this, they are moving quickly and you need to be ahead of them. If you are home during the week there is no need for MIL to have them at all. You need to do this. Keep to every other weekend for the time being and see that solicitor xx

Oh and kickass is so right...
Write everything down. If I had the chance again, I'd tape the abusive stuff mine came out with.. no argument at all then. You can pick up some really excellent recording devices. And keep all texts x

Please don't let them look after him, by doing so they are having the main care of him. You need to be doing that not them.

You will get help with childcare costs up to £130 a week I believe.

All you have to do is work over 30 hours a week to get the max Child Tax, and the Lone Parent part.

With regards your debt, pay as little as you can and only pay debt that is in your name. All creditors want is regular payments. Get the interest frozen too, seek advice from the CAB if you can.

With no court order or residency, then the police can't do anything to get him returned!!!

Not if he had PR...... All they can do is check on your sons wellbeing if you have concerns

Really, their hands are tied!!

In that case, when you get him back don't let them have him again. And don't let on you intend to do this. Let him take you to court,. In the meantime become his sole carer.

Call in sick...Stop working and then move. This is a desperate situation that requires desperate measures...sorry

Tiffany, do you mean that they can just keep him and one day not return him?

Or that i could do same?

He is on birth certificate and we both have PR i think

can't call in sick - i'm self employed. I will need to save a little to keep us going until benefits come through and then quit work (ie dissolve my business, cease trading etc) I can do that relatively easy though since I don't have premises i'm mobile worker.
or could live very very frugally on just my TCs and a little work here and there - but that would be a real real stuggle.

alternatively i could get childcare arrangements in place with registered childminder (any childcare changes i've made in past have always been paid pretty fast) and then just not let them have him again. and not let them know where he is minded. he cannot pick him up without my permission though could he?

I would do exactly as babyhammock has suggested. Don't let on anything. Wait till he is back with you and don't let them have either of the kids again. Go off sick from work, go and see a solicitor and become his sole carer. Then give up your job, go on benefits. Tell your solicitor the situation - that you are concerned they could snatch him, show your solicitor the texts,emails etc and that you want supervised contact only.

As soon as you have got yourself sorted out, look in a nearby town (or further) for childcare, work and accomodation.

I do think your situation sounds very worrying - I haven't written this kind of advice before. But as long as you keep your head you will be fine. Start with having them both home with you, then say your daughter is no longer coming for overnights due to whatever reason. Then say you are no longer working and no longer need childcare, then sort out supervised visits only if you can.

To be honest as a lone parent on a low wage you may not be much worse off on benefits anyway - then all the childcare can be down to you.

Whatever you do, you need to do it quickly. Tell any childminder that you use not to let him leave with anyone but you.
And once you've done it apply for a residency order, you definately have grounds for it given their behaviour. x

Hi Sadandmoresad.

I was just about to go to bed but didn't want to read & run. Much of what you need to do has been posted but over several posts. What you need is a strategy and a plan. I've been through this unfortunately a couple of times and let me tell you that the best piece of advice I was given was basically to treat this as a war. If you are not willing to get in the gutter and do what it takes then you can forget it right now. Because your ex (and exMIL) certainly will.

OK, so let's get some sort of order here.

Firstly you do need legal advice and sharpish. Secondly ffs do not tell your ex ANYTHING. NOTHING! ZIP! If he asks you for the time you don't know! OK? Seriously! I cannot stress that enough.

As for contact, you cannot CANNOT let them muscle you out like this and become the defacto resident parent. Whilst his mum is looking after your son, he can easily argue they are in his "care" and therefore he is the true resident parent. What I would do is say/do whatever it takes to get the kids back then inform him (via your solicitor) that until the issue of residence is formally sorted that contact is suspended. Then you watch the kids like a hawk and only leave them with people you trust. If that means giving up your job then do it. If it means employing a childminder he has no clue who/where she is then do it. Do what it takes.

Then you get this sorted via mediation/solicitors. Basically you are the mother, DS is young and also have a sibling. The chances of him getting full residence from you is slim to none as long as you play your cards correctly and in the right order. And top of the bloody list is not tell him your hand!!!

Ultimately what you decide with your ex as to what constitutes reasonable contact is entirely up to you. I would suggest that every other weekend is fine. Evening contact is also fine. But given the situation I would completely object to his mum looking after your son. In fact as a strategy I would refuse to discuss that as an issue until the days are sorted. Then what he does with his days is up to him, what you do is up to you. Does that make sense? So you decide who has which days. THEN he can if he likes, on his days have his mum look after DS. What he CANNOT do is decide who looks after DS on your days.

Good luck. You are young and I sense you may struggle to find the backbone needed to take this battle to your ex. But it is a battle and the prize appears to be custody (residence) of your son. Hopefully that will spur you into action.