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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

House, baby ... wedding?

149 replies

1nervousnellie · 29/07/2011 16:57

I need a bit of advice from you lovely ladies. I have been with DP for 13 extremely happy years and we have a beautiful 3 month old baby son and a mortgage together. I've wanted to get married for the last 10 years (and have gone through phases where I have been very unhappy about this) but DP wasn't so keen. Since having our son I have felt more and more like we should get married for a couple of reasons - 1. We are more in love than ever, things have been amazing and I feel like I want to share that with our family and friends and 2. the whole legal side of things i.e. being each others next of kin etc. which seems pretty important now we have a kid (and plan to have more). We had been talking about having a naming ceremony (we are atheists) and I have been looking into the cost of that and also using a solicitor to get documents drawn up to give us the (near enough) same legal entitlements as married people get but I've had an idea about having a joint ceremony for welcoming the baby and getting married at the same time, followed by a big party also to say thanks to all those friends and family who have supported us over the years and especially since the baby arrived. I've no idea if his views on us getting married have changed since having the baby etc. because I am too nervous to ask him in case he says no and I am upset, which, added to my current state of exhaustion, would be very detrimental to my mental health!
I have been thinking about this for weeks now and was going to talk to him tonight about it but yesterday his good friend and his girlfriend got engaged (I can't stand them and we don't speak but that's another matter entirely!) and I feel like people might think we were jumping on that bandwagon. Maybe I'm just paranoid? So do you think I should still talk to him tonight or leave it for a few weeks? Or just wait and see if he decides to make the first move? I don't know how I would feel if he said he never wanted to marry me as it feels like marriage would be a commitment not just to me, but to our lovely wee family unit. Would love to hear your thoughts.

OP posts:
lastonetoleaveturnoutthelights · 01/08/2011 11:11

OP do you really want to be proposed to? Is that important to you?

Based on your posts, it would make far more sense, and be a far more equal decision if you jointly agree to get married. It needn't be unromantic - go out for dinner somewhere nice perhaps, say 'well, what do you think, shall we get married?'.

Why not tell him that you don't want a proposal, a surprise, a ring, down-on-one-knee? That you'd rather make a joint decision that resonated in strength and equality for your relationship?

As a feminist, if I could go back in time, I sometimes think I would prefer to have made an equal and joint (and excited and romantic) decision with my then-DP after many years together rather than wait for him to secretively buy the ring and plan a romantic proposal. We don't live in Pride and Prejudice world anymore.

NB, honeyandsalt, those photos you linked to brought a tear to my eye, and really do illustrate how much marriage means to people who for a very long time weren't allowed to do it.

HeatherSmall · 01/08/2011 11:15

She's brought it up and been told no thanks .... imagine a woman being hounded into a contract they don't want would the advice be the same, I don't think so.
I got married because i probably believed the "if he loved you he'd marry you" rubbish and it is rubbish.

RudeEnglishLady · 01/08/2011 11:38

nellie i just wanted to tell you of my experience with my husband who was very anti-marriage. I am not especially pro-marriage but we needed to sort our stuff out wrt legal / DS etc. Also, I did take the view that if I'm good enough for living together and children then I'm good enough to marry (probably old-fashioned thinking). During our 'discussions' a close friend of his was going through a very expensive and bitter divorce. He was always phoning the house to rant about his troubles to DH, which combined with DH's staunch anti-religious views, created huge negativity about marriage. I basically wanted to strangle the friend although I didn't say anything because I didn't want to make things even worse! In the end I just told DH to go f* himself and that I wouldnt marry him if he was the last man on earth and we'd best get down to the lawyers sharpish to make our wills.

A week later he sent off for all his paperwork and booked the meeting at the town hall to arrange the wedding. We never had an engagement, we had a witness only wedding, my dress was out of Zara sale. I think the whole day cost 200 euros and it was lovely, really special. I had a horror of pledging my troth in front of others so this was ideal. My DH thinks being married is brilliant and says it makes him feel proud. I love it too, i do think it's more than a piece of paper. I think what I'm trying to say here is - actions speak louder than words. If your DP is just dangling a ring or the promise of, I'd be inclined to tell him to p* off. If he sorts out the forms and the town hall or whatever then you know he's serious and he's worth marrying. I do hope that helps... its really no fun being in your situation, but you shouldn't think its totally unsalvageable.

mummytime · 01/08/2011 11:42

I have to say I would suggest you get some couple counselling, so you can bring up issues which are emotionally charged without this over reaction. Just what are the problems? At the least you need to understand what aspect of getting married he has issues with.
Do not make stupid promises (like you will stay around for the next 18 years).
Maybe he would like some individual counselling. My DH had some when we were engaged as I think he found the "growing up" of getting married a bit frightening, although we've been happily married now for more than 20 years.

venusandmars · 01/08/2011 12:05

I don't understand the assumptions that some of the posts on here are making. Why if one partner want to be married should the other one agree? How does not wanting to be married automatically signal that the person does not love their partner and is looking for an easy get out?

We are all brought up with a variety of cultural and behavioural exectations about love, babies, marriage. And sometimes it is very difficult for us to understand, rationalise and explain our emotional reactions to them. That is why (as the OP plans to do) it requires some calm discussion, love and tolerance on both sides, and sometimes support from Relate or another relationship counsellor.

Yes the OP has wanted to get married for a long time, but from what is written it doesn't sound as though that has totally ruined the "13 extremely happy years together" and so there have maybe been some mixed signals about how important it really was. Now, the OP is more focussed on what she would like, which is great. She has told her dp, which is great, and after 'surprising' him with it seems able to discuss it more calmly.

Fortunately the OP also seems very secure in her relationship and was able to listen when her dp told her how much he loved her. And it sounds as though he was also able to listen to her and explain some of his feelings. All of which is a good place to start discussing how they jointly agree on the right way forward, without issuing threats or ultimatums.

venusandmars · 01/08/2011 12:09

That is lovely *RudeEnglishLady" Smile

For me though, I viewed getting married as a shared decision, with shared responsibility for making the arrangements. And neither of us had an engagement ring.

RudeEnglishLady · 01/08/2011 12:58

Cheers Venus

We never did rings either... not even wedding rings! We are building a house and I said I'd rather have a patio or a downstairs loo than a ring :)

SheCutOffTheirTails · 01/08/2011 13:09

If a man asked his girlfriend of 13 years and mother of his child to marry him and her response was to sulk, say she was taken by surprise and felt too much pressure, refuse to explain why she didn't want to marry but suggest that it was outrageous of him to have brought it up, my response would be, "move on, dude, she's not that into you."

solid is right about the cruel dangle of the possibility of a proposal. He's saying just enough to keep her there hoping.

She's has asked him to marry her (in effect) and his response has been disgust. That tells you everything you need to know.

SheCutOffTheirTails · 01/08/2011 13:13

My mother gave me my engagement ring, it was hers, and her grandmother's.

Engagement rings are a red herring - men like this who simultaneously claim they don't want to get married, but are very concerned about proposals, rings and surprises are playing games.

Ephiny · 01/08/2011 13:18

Yes I would say the OP has already proposed, and effectively been refused. Up to her to decide what she wants to do next, but that's the way it is.

I do think it would be a real shame to break up an otherwise good partnership over something like this, especially when they have a child. But I can see it must be very frustrating, especially if he won't explain why, other than vague stuff about 'getting old' Hmm.

1nervousnellie · 01/08/2011 16:09

lastonetoleaveturnoutthelights - no an actual 'proposal' is not what I'm after at all. I don't even know why he was thinking of surprising me with a ring as I'm not very traditional at all. I suppose it's just what people do? A joint decision made after a considered chat would be ideal. Those photos are lovely indeed.

RudeEnglishLady - thanks for sharing your story. I do think that actions speak louder than words but I am just going to leave it for a while and let the dust settle (and my hormones). See how I feel in a few months.

mummytime - I shouldn't have said that I would 'stick around for the next 18 years'. It was said in the heat of the moment and makes it sound like life would be terrible til our son grows up and then I would leave.

venusandmars - I think you are understanding our situation better than most. I genuinely believe he is not waiting around til someone better comes along or else I would just bite the bullet and leave for my own sanity. I value myself more than that, and I value the life we have and can continue to have. Open and honest discussion is the way forward down the line. I want a happy household for my child and I think this is the way to ensure that happens.

SheCutOffTheirTails - I wouldn't say that his response was 'disgust'. Defensiveness and stubborness yes, disgust no. His response needs to be worked through at a later time and I will be strong enough to do this without histronics and threats.

Ephiny - it would be shame to split up which is why I plan to try and work through it with him. It is frustating but the chat yesterday was a breakthrough and I think he even surprised himself at some of the stuff he was saying to me. Maybe this whole episode has been good for us (while feeling rubbish obviously!), I heard a lot of stuff I didn't expect and in the future I hope we can communicate honestly and resolve this one way or another.

OP posts:
SheCutOffTheirTails · 01/08/2011 16:43

He wasn't thinking of surprising you with a ring.

And he's still not.

That was a blatant lie.

Why would a happy and committed man's reaction to being asked to get married be stubbornness and defensiveness?

Defensive of what?

Stubborn to what end?

Those responses only make sense if he doesn't want to marry you.

Waiting around for a mature and sensible conversation with him is a mug's game. He could have had a conversation like that yesterday if he wanted one.

venusandmars · 01/08/2011 17:10

SheCutOffTheirTails I don't get why you keep posting such terribly, terribly negative posts. Fair enough to check out whether the OP is considering all the options, but she's come back a few times and is quite clear in her assessment of what is going on.

How can you possibly be so certain in your viewpoint?

HeatherSmall · 01/08/2011 17:11

He has said he doesn't want to marry her hasn't he ? So what ?

PelvicFloorOfSteel · 01/08/2011 22:10

Well you certainly get a variety of views by posting here Grin.

I don't think your DP is going anywhere or expecting to run off with anyone 'better'. I know it's impossible to tell from a few posts but I reckon he just hates change and would like life to bumble on in exactly the same way forever. If your DS hadn't come along he'd probably have dithered about having kids for years, he's still dithering about marriage, I seriously doubt he'd ever make the decision to leave with another woman. It doesn't mean he's not satisfied with what he's got, more that he's totally happy with the status quo and doesn't want to do anything to rock his (very comfortable) boat.

I'm of the very happily unmarried persuasion so I have to admit not entirely understanding why marriage itself is so important. I think you need to get all your paperwork in order so you're both protected if the other one dies or is incapacitated, next of kin, wills, house/mortgage documentation, etc are high priority. I think even if you put marriage to one side you need to get all this sorted, it's more complicated and expensive than getting married so you might even find an unexpected bonus is that it makes your DP realise actually marriage is an easy option.

Once the practicalities are sorted out then you can afford to leave any further discussions about marriage until you're both feeling a bit more settled into being parents, hopefully you'll be getting more sleep soon and that helps with having serious discussions.

Spero · 01/08/2011 22:35

Honeyandsalt, thanks for those pictures, they made me cry but in a good way.

If I loved my partner, had been with him for 13 years and had his baby I would want to get married. Not for a ring or a party but as a sign of commitment to our family. I wouldn't care what impressive socio-politico reasons he could dig up from his sociology a level against it - if he loved me and wanted to be with me, he would put aside his objections and marry me.

Op, please be careful. Solid is right on the money about the 'dangling' proposal. I got told he had bout me a ring, but we had been arguing so the time wasn't right and anyway wasnt our child and our mortgage the truest sign of our commitment?

Er no. The house got sold and he now lives on other side of world and sees his daughter a few weeks a year. So don't get suckered. I agree with everyone who says you don't have to up and leave, but he has got to talk like a grown up, not a sulky little boy and explain why he does not want to marry the mother of his child. Then you have to decide if you can live with the situation.

Wamster · 02/08/2011 09:36

You say you own the house jointly, is this all recorded on paper? What would happen now if you were to split up? Would the default position be that you sold the house and had half each or would you be left homeless as the default position and would have a battle on your hands to stay in the house with your child until child was 18?
Does he earn more than you do? Are you giving up work? You (obviously) do not have to answer, but I won't apologise for saying here that a lot of men avoid marriage in order to avoid shelling out financially at a later date.
He could be one of them; let's face it, marriage is not really just about commitment as such- people can be committed without being married- it is also a hard, legal transaction and he could be wanting to have his cake and eat it i.e. all the benefits of a wife without the 'cost' of one.

Wamster · 02/08/2011 09:41

You can 'test' whether this is the case or not by suggesting the following to him:
a, If house not already in joint names, would he be happy to put it in joint names?
b, Will he make a will naming you as main beneficiary ( if no wills made, the default position is that next-of-kin inherits so that would be his child/ren not you- cohabitees are NOT mentioned in 'rules of intestacy')
c, If you give up work to look after children of relationship, would he be prepared to sign a contract to reimburse you for your giving up of work?

If he squirms at this and refuses to do so, then it is obvious that he wants to be able to leave without consequences.

Apocalypto · 02/08/2011 11:24

Men tend to be analytical. What are the advantages to him of being married, as opposed to not? What does it say that 13 years and a baby somehow don't?

If there are no or few advantages compared to the drawbacks, then that would be why he doesn't want to get married.

noddyholder · 02/08/2011 11:29

You sound like you have a good relationship and marriage would add for you but do nothing for him. Dp and I have been together 20 yrs last month and are more in love and happy than ever. ALl legal stuff sorted and I would never get married despite him asking a few times. Most of out=r married friends have split in the last few years so there are no guarantees. I really don't get the people posting that they wouldn't have s child with someone who wouldn't marry them! It sounds so needy and unnecessary. You cannot force someone into something and if you have to you are a bit sad

Apocalypto · 02/08/2011 12:32

@ Wamster

Another possibility is that he doesn't want her to be able to leave without consequences, in case she does.

Around half of all marriages end in divorce, mostly initiated by wives. Most men are aware of this from personal experience as they and their friends and colleagues get older. Probably more stay unhappily together because the parties see no alternative.

Most or probably all men are likewise broadly aware that divorces are financially bad for them - unless they marry someone much wealthier, or unless they quit work to become a house husband financially supported by their wife.

If you buy a teapot based on the salesman's claims that it also makes the tea, then what he said to get you to buy the teapot is part of the deal. If this later turns out to be untruthful, you can give back the teapot and he has to give you back the money.

This is not the case with marriage, where if one party conceals that they used to be a drug addict, or a prostitute, or a convicted criminal - or have become one subsequently - the other can get it ended, but not unravelled / annulled, and there'd rarely be any difference in the financial or child care outcome.

Most men get to observe this and many probably see this as uniquely unfair. The rate of marriages in the UK is in long term decline. I don't know of any detailed study into why, but suspect that men's rather than women's reluctance has most to do with this. If the option of living together - with children, but with reduced / no financial risk - is available to them, they take it. Same upside, less downside.

One can argue until one's blue in the face as to whether this is correct / right / immoral or whatever, but it doesn't really matter, if it's what men believe.

In Wamster's suggestion above, the risk with the list of suggestions is that it amounts to a demand for money. If it looks like her main reason for wanting to get married is so that she'll be OK at his expense if she ever feels like leaving, then in effect he probably wants not to get married for exactly the reasons that she does.

This may not be the exact case in the OP's circumstances, but I'd strongly suspect that something like the above has coloured her DH's thinking.

Which is why I suggest she needs to understand what he sees as the benefits and drawbacks of marriage to him. Not to her, not to the baby but to him. How is it good for him?

If he can't actually think of any benefits, and the drawbacks are "most marriages fail or are unhappy and you would take me to the cleaners in a divorce", then there may be more work to be done on this relationship than she yet knows.

Men will get married, because they think their marriage will be among the minority that works rather than the majority that doesn't, but some need persuading to this view.

pommedechocolat · 02/08/2011 12:53

OP - are you all sorted in terms of legality? Are wills done? Are you joint owners of the house?
Quite apart from any discussions on marriage you need to sort all these things out ASAP anyway. I got a right brushing down from an accountant when dd was 7 months old we weren't married (but were engaged) and hadn't done a will. She was right, you can't not do it. Apart from anything else your child becomes a ward of court if you both pass away.

SheCutOffTheirTails · 02/08/2011 16:31

What marriage says that 13 years of feet dragging and an accidental pregnancy don't is "we are a family".

noddyholder · 02/08/2011 17:47

One of my oldest friends had to flee her 'everyone thinks he is lovely' husband 2 months ago because contrary to what we were seeing on the outside he was violent and controlling and she had been miserable for years.They were married but I wouldn't call that a family Hmm.A family is many things and a marriage certificate or ring cannot make a family in itself

SheCutOffTheirTails · 02/08/2011 18:10

I didn't say he should marry her and start beating her.

Just that to the outside world I'm sure it looks like he's been trapped by an accidental pregnancy of a woman he had been dodging the marriage bullet with for years.

A man sticking around through inertia doesn't make a family.

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