House, baby ... wedding?

[1nervousnellie]

I need a bit of advice from you lovely ladies. I have been with DP for 13 extremely happy years and we have a beautiful 3 month old baby son and a mortgage together. I've wanted to get married for the last 10 years (and have gone through phases where I have been very unhappy about this) but DP wasn't so keen. Since having our son I have felt more and more like we should get married for a couple of reasons - 1. We are more in love than ever, things have been amazing and I feel like I want to share that with our family and friends and 2. the whole legal side of things i.e. being each others next of kin etc. which seems pretty important now we have a kid (and plan to have more). We had been talking about having a naming ceremony (we are atheists) and I have been looking into the cost of that and also using a solicitor to get documents drawn up to give us the (near enough) same legal entitlements as married people get but I've had an idea about having a joint ceremony for welcoming the baby and getting married at the same time, followed by a big party also to say thanks to all those friends and family who have supported us over the years and especially since the baby arrived. I've no idea if his views on us getting married have changed since having the baby etc. because I am too nervous to ask him in case he says no and I am upset, which, added to my current state of exhaustion, would be very detrimental to my mental health!
I have been thinking about this for weeks now and was going to talk to him tonight about it but yesterday his good friend and his girlfriend got engaged (I can't stand them and we don't speak but that's another matter entirely!) and I feel like people might think we were jumping on that bandwagon. Maybe I'm just paranoid? So do you think I should still talk to him tonight or leave it for a few weeks? Or just wait and see if he decides to make the first move? I don't know how I would feel if he said he never wanted to marry me as it feels like marriage would be a commitment not just to me, but to our lovely wee family unit. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Yes, getting married is cheaper, but in the even one doesn't want to marry, then you need to take some legal steps and that's that.

If your baby is only three months old, then he has IIIRC automatic parental responsibility. Do sort out wills. Don't see what life insurance has to do with marriage, tbh: might be a good idea to do it separately, though, if you are financially dependent on him.

If my partner started issuing an ultimatum about marriage, I might quite feasibly start reconsidering our relationship myself, I have to say.

The things you want can be achieved without marriage though. You can have a commitment ceremony and make vows in front of friends and family, without getting married. You can also get legal documents drawn up (as you mention yourself) to make sure you have the protection you need. I know the obvious response to that is 'wouldn't it be easier to just get married?' - and I would say yes! But if it really is marriage itself that bothers him, then maybe it would be a better way?

He does sound a bit unreasonable though, especially as he won't talk about it properly or explain his reasons. Of course it's his choice whether he wants to get married or not, but as it's so important to you and his refusal is upsetting you so much, I would think the least he could do would be to give you a good reason why not!

I would say that the OPs partner hasn't changed his stance re getting married in the 13 yrs they've been married, the baby was an accident (but a happy one) so it's not like he's changed his mind!

TheOriginalFAB - if I just wanted a husband I would have left him a long time ago to find myself a random husband.

ThierryHenryismyBoyfriend - it's hardly blackmail. Would my son be happier with two content single parents or parents who live together but with one unhappy one and an issue which is not going to be resolved? Getting married is, and always has been, something that I wanted for us, not for the sake of show or anything like that. As I said earlier 'it feels like marriage would be a commitment not just to me, but to our lovely wee family unit'.

QuintessentialShadow - mid 30s.

lachesis & motherinferior - yes, I need to get my affairs in order.The most important person in all of this is my son, and I need to make sure he is protected and would be looked after in the event of our deaths. I'm not planning to issue an ultimatum. It's up to him to take the initiative (which doesn't look likely really) and if he doesn't , without a genuinely good reason, then I need to work out what's best for me and my child - perhaps that is me putting his happiness before my own and staying with him. I don't know yet, I am confused.

Ephiny - I would be happy with a commitment ceremony, I hadn't thought of that. You're right, he is being unreasonable - all I want is an explanation/reason and then I could either try to understand, see if I could get over it or if I should leave or try to work through it.

To add insult to injury my first period since the birth has just arrived. This is not a good day. I need

Marriage is not the be all end all, providing you have your legalities sorted with regards what happens in the event of one of you dying there is no reason to get married, just have wills whereby he gets yours and you get his.

Can I just say that just because somebody doesn't want to get married it does not mean that they are not committed to someone.
My OH and I have been together 16.5 years and have 5 children together (we also have all the paper we need as we are not married).
We talk about what we are going to do in old age as a couple and how we are going to spend our retirement together.
We don't think about if our relationship is going to fail. We see the positives and the love we have for each other and our children.

OP, I really admire you for opening this discussion with your DP. So many women wait limply around just sort of hoping.... ugh.

I don't really get his problem tbh, I would agree with whoever said you both need to lay your cards on the table as this is a serious relationship issue. An ultimatum would be so conterproductive it's not even true, but if I were you I'd be saying "I'm sorry I've been so off with you the last few days. I've just been feeling really upset and rejected, and I don't understand your position."

I really don't see how sweeping it all under the carpet is going to help tbh.

OP I am sort of in the same situation as you, but have been with DP for 5 years and have no DC. I made it very clear to him within the first month of meeting that I want a marriage (not necessarily a wedding, a commitment ceremony would suffice) and children and that only one or neither (assuming there are no medical complications) was not an option with me. He stayed with me, we moved in together.

Still no marriage or babies. We used to argue about because I couldn't understand it, why doesn't he want to marry me? I could give him reason after reason for wanting what I wanted, whereas he couldn't do the same.

Anyway, a year and a half ago it appeared to Dawn on him that I would actually leave him if he didn't want what I wanted. He became very upset because he said he loved me but he wasn't sure he wanted those things and thought I would leave him. I said, calmly, that yes I would. I know what I want and I will compromise on lots of things, almost everything, and have done on lots o things I thought I never would, but those two things are so important to me that I would prefer to be single and have the opportunity to meet someone with whom I am more compatible than stay with DP, who I adore.

He told me he would marry me. He told me we could have a family. A year and a half has passed and nothing, I had a miscarriage in February and he was 'relieved'. He has another year, tops, and then I will have to call time. It seems silly to waste both our time when we are not both working towards the same end goal. I deserve someone who wants to give me those things and he deserves someone who wants what he wants.

I haven't mentioned it again, though, since our conversation. Anything else I say now will feel dry much like I have forced him into it and I don't want that, so he has to want to. But in a time frame. That's why I think you should nt mention it to him again, and figure out if it really is a deal breaker, because it categorically is for me.

Whoops, sorry for the hijack

I also had a mortgage and two DCs with my DP before the subject of marriage came up. Until we had the second child and I gave up work to be a SAHM, we figured there wasn't a lot of point in being married - having the DCs was the greatest commtment to each other we could have made.

But then we thought about it the other way - what is the point in staying unmarried? Back then, DH worked for a very conservative company whose pensions/life assurance benefits were only available to spouses; as a non-earning person with children to think about I was suddenly more financially vulnerable if something happened to DP, or we split up. There were more trivial concerns - having a different surname from the rest of the family was a PITA.

And why not celebrate the fact that we were going to be together "forever" by throwing a nice big party with all our mates? I suggested this to DP, and he said "well, if you do the planning we'll get married." We had a very non-weddingy wedding, basically a register office do followed by a big party in a barn, with the local pub doing the catering. No speeches, no cake cutting, no receiving lines, no white dress etc. DS1 sat on my knee during the vows.

That was nine years ago; we now have a third DC. Marriage didn't change things, but just put the cherry on the top of the cake as far as I'm concerned. I don't know how I'd have felt if DH said he didn't want to marry me, though.

DiscoDaisy - that's great that it works for you as you both want the same thing. It's different in this case because we don't.

honeyandsalt - thank you, it took balls to bring it up again and I'm glad I did. I don't want to be 'one of those women'. I feel I've been hanging on long enough. Yes, constructive discussion is the way forward but he has to take the initiative to bring it up again. I'm tired and fed up of being the one making the first move. I've just told him I'm not going up with him to see his parents this afternoon as I am not playing happy families for their sake. I can't plaster on a smile when all this is going on. I can tell he is very upset this morning too.

Slightobsession - I'm sorry to hear about your miscarriage. Why are these men so stupid and reluctant to either discuss issues properly or grow up and realise what it is they stand to lose. I hope it works out for you - either way. You're right, the potential to meet someone who has the same goals as you is more important than wasting both your time for something that may not happen. I totally know how you're feeling and it's shite.

CointreauVersial - that's exactly how I would do it, the non-weddingy wedding. Marriage would not change anything like how much we love each other, but it's what I want and the rejection (well, he is still 'thinking' about it but I know it's coming) is incredibly hurtful after all these years and all we have been through.

I think the wanting to get married/ not wanting to get married shouldn't be a deal breaker for a relationship, there are compromises which can be reached, at the very least getting the legal side sorted should be a priority. If he's totally unwilling to communicate then that in itself is going to cause relationship problems. Have you tried entering into a discussion about wills, etc?

Why don't you speak to his best friend? Is this a total non-issue which he's using to avoid talking about marriage or is it something which really bothers him a lot all the time? I know in the past DP didn't get on that well with one of my friends and it did really upset me. Not speaking does sound a bit petty from a 35 year old but it's really hard to say, without knowing the history, whether this is justified.

But, you are bringing it up, passive-aggressively, punishing him for making you feel this way. And (correct me if I'm wrong) all it's doing is, yes, punishing him, and creating a toxic atomsphere in your previously happy home. Now, I don't for one minute think your plan to have a low-key baby-naming/wedding ceremony is unreasonable. It sounds lovely, and it is not unreasonable for you to be gutted by his unreasoned rejection of it. Does he know, by the way, how you'd want the wedding or is he assuming you're after a conventional white wedding with all the trimmings? Because it might be the latter he's objecting too.

But ignoring him in the expectation that he'll know to try and explain himself/talk it through, just letting the issue hang in the air like that? I just think you need some sort of honest explanation. You need to explain that you're not just being a dick, you're deeply hurt and upset. You need to know whether he has an objection to the institution of marriage (and what that objection is), or whether there's a deep problem within your relationship.

Seriously, hash this out imho.

My partner asks me frequently why I don't want to get married. I tell him, truthfully, that I just can't face the idea.

Possibly, if he made an almighty song and dance about it, I might agree, crossly and resentfully, to do something that I really don't want to. It would not, I have to say, enhance my feelings for him.

OP - I understand where you are coming from, this lack of commitment makes you feel that he doesn't value you like he should.

From your posts there isn't an obvious reason why he would be so adverse to marriage.

There shouldn't be taboo subjects of discussion in a relationship and I think you deserve a proper explanation for this. I agree with the poster who says you should hash it out - if you are actually prepared to leave him over this, don't be afraid to push him on it even if it leads to an uncomfortable or heated discussion - you have nothing to lose.

The conclusion might actually be less corrosive than the ongoing bitterness that you are quite rightly feeling at the moment.

But zzzz marriage isn't "a piece of paper", it's a public commitment to her and their baby family. And if he can't make that commitment after over a decade together it is an issue - there seems to be no real indication as to why atm, which is a big relationship problem.

I'm with the OP surely if he can commit to having a baby with her then after all this time he can commit to marriage? It's a bit like he's keeping his options open by refusing to get married.

That said I'm v. old fashioned and would of wanted to get married pre-baby.

Hmm like someone else said, it feels like you moved very fast from general questioning to thinking about leaving.
I worry that your current stance of waiting for him to bring it up is a bit doomed - it is more likely that when he realises you are not bringing it up anymore, he will be relieved and falsely think that you have come round to not wanting to be married (now/immediately/to him).
But at the same time, I would not want you to blackmail him/ultimatum him into marrying - would worry about it all staying as a festering wound for both of you in the future.
So what to do? Perhaps a way forward could be to insist, really in every way you can, that he explains his reasons. So, make an ultimatum of that, rather than of the marrying itself. Say to him that if he doesn't even respect you and your feelings enough to explain his reasons, that is the dealbreaker, and you will have to start thinking of leaving. Then if this helps resolve the situation and you do end up getting married, you won't keep wondering in the future if he only married you because you threatened to leave.

FWIW I think if you are putting an ultimatum on him, then it needs to be on the table, not a secret thing you are testing him against without his knowledge.

When I first got together with DP, we discussed children pretty soon, both saying we'd want to have children at some point but not now (else I would never have committed to the relationship so strongly). But I also said then, that I would never nag him into having children at a certain time. I would not want to have children with someone who just went along with his partner's wishes rather than wanting them himself. I would tell him when I felt ready, and I would expect him to do the same - that is, I would expect him to think about it every now and then and to consider his feelings on the subject and bring it up, rather than waiting for me to bring it up. That way when we did decide to start TTC I was so happy because we really both wanted to. I think similar things could be said about getting married - you don't want to marry someone, surely, who just goes along with your wishes despite not wanting to?

PelvicFloorOfSteel - can't speak to the friend. There's too much water under the bridge there. It's a long and boring story but it was to do with his bitch of a girlfriend causing problems for me (think single white femalesque scenario except no-one saw it but me and I ended up being the bad guy as she wrapped everyone else around her little finger). His friend has also made no attempt to meet my son or even send a card to his father.

RabbitPie - thank you for your understanding. I'm sorry to hear you went through this too. I don't feel like I can compromise on this unless there is a valid reason and I can't think of one that he could come up with.

honeyandsalt - the atmosphere in our house is horrible. It's gone from being a very happy and joyful place to cold and miserable. Yes, I am being passive aggressive but I can't bring myself to act normally as I am close to tears permanently and can't bring myself to speak to him about it just yet. He knows I wouldn't want a big white wedding, that wouldn't be our style at all.

zzzzz - why should my feelings be less important than his? I'm not trying to force him to do anything but surely you can understand why this is important to me. It's not a control issue in the slightest. I'm not that sort of person.

RufousBartleby - I do need to push him for a reason but not today, I can't face it. I'm very tempted to go and stay at my mother's house for a few days to clear my head but do not want to deprive him of seeing the baby.

Graciescotland - the baby was a happy surprise, I would have wanted to be married before having kids too (am not sure why, I am not very old fashioned at all) but sometimes things happen that are beyond your control.

Meita - no, I do not want him to agree to it because he is forced into it. I want him to love me enough to realise how important is is me and decide that he wants to make me happy or realise that things are different now that we are a family and it would be a great thing to make it official. I feel that he has not only rejected me but our family unit, and that is very hard to take.

holyShmoley - he's certainly pissing me off. He hasn't come back to me with a 'no' yet but I'm assuming that's likely. I need to hear the reasons why. My DS complicates things somewhat as I don't want to deprive him of growing up in the same house as his father but don't want to spend the rest of my life being resentful and hurt about this (am aware that he may feel resentful and hurt about getting married but frankly without good reasons to not do it he shouldn't).

nervousnellie, could it be that that feeling of rejection is really what it is all about? That really, getting married is not what you absolutely want, but what you do want is the commitment, something else to this rejection? Is there any other way he could give you that, apart from getting married? Just musing, could be way off mark here.

I think some men truly believe that things will be 'the same' once a baby is there, but they're not. They just aren't. Maybe your DP needs a gentle (or not so gentle) push to realise that things are different now? That 'not getting married' is different now too, that if feels like rejection to you. After all, he got away with 'not getting married' for many many years, perhaps he hasn't realised how different things are now?

You say that he is 99% good, just this issue about marriage. But it does make me think. If everything were truly so fantastic, perhaps the marriage issue would not be so huge, would not feel so much like rejection to you. What worries me is that he won't talk about it, that he won't address your obvious feelings of misery at the moment, and it seems to me in a way, does he take his mates side in that issue? He should be taking your side. He should be pissed off with his mate, and clearing things up there, not sitting on the fence. Not knowing all the details, again, this is just musing... But I do wonder if everything is really so good. Makes me think the marriage issue could be a handle you are using to sort of bundle up a few other things that aren't quite right. Again, might be way off mark here.