House, baby ... wedding?

[1nervousnellie]

I need a bit of advice from you lovely ladies. I have been with DP for 13 extremely happy years and we have a beautiful 3 month old baby son and a mortgage together. I've wanted to get married for the last 10 years (and have gone through phases where I have been very unhappy about this) but DP wasn't so keen. Since having our son I have felt more and more like we should get married for a couple of reasons - 1. We are more in love than ever, things have been amazing and I feel like I want to share that with our family and friends and 2. the whole legal side of things i.e. being each others next of kin etc. which seems pretty important now we have a kid (and plan to have more). We had been talking about having a naming ceremony (we are atheists) and I have been looking into the cost of that and also using a solicitor to get documents drawn up to give us the (near enough) same legal entitlements as married people get but I've had an idea about having a joint ceremony for welcoming the baby and getting married at the same time, followed by a big party also to say thanks to all those friends and family who have supported us over the years and especially since the baby arrived. I've no idea if his views on us getting married have changed since having the baby etc. because I am too nervous to ask him in case he says no and I am upset, which, added to my current state of exhaustion, would be very detrimental to my mental health!
I have been thinking about this for weeks now and was going to talk to him tonight about it but yesterday his good friend and his girlfriend got engaged (I can't stand them and we don't speak but that's another matter entirely!) and I feel like people might think we were jumping on that bandwagon. Maybe I'm just paranoid? So do you think I should still talk to him tonight or leave it for a few weeks? Or just wait and see if he decides to make the first move? I don't know how I would feel if he said he never wanted to marry me as it feels like marriage would be a commitment not just to me, but to our lovely wee family unit. Would love to hear your thoughts.

I'm sure this has been said already, but I would be booking in to Relate as you seem to be thinking you should stick with him. See if you can get a reasoned response in a controlled environment, where he can't become hysterical, fob you off, or try to use your son as a means of emotional blackmail.

If nothing else booking Relate might demonstrate to him that you are quite serious about not being satisfied with the current situation.

If he refuses to attend, well - that speak volumes.

Agree entirely solid

marl - I'm sorry to hear you are in this situation too. It's hard with the extra pressue of sleep deprivation and hormones and I now do realise this isn't a time for rash decisions. I do love him dearly and love our life together so to throw it all away at time when I am not at my best mentally would be wrong. I'm calmer now than I was over the last few days and can see this.

RabbitPie - I think he was taken aback by my assertiveness and how calm I was with the discussion this afternoon. He won't propose unless he means it, if he is backed into a corner he will immediately go the other way so I believe if it happens that it will be for the right reasons.

venusandmars - I think more talking is the way forward..when I am in a better state of mind and getting more sleep. Before having DS I was always doing something most evenings and very focussed on my career etc. so I am not use to having all this time to think to myself and am perhaps placing more importance on certain things than I should. I don't know. It's hard to get him to talk about his feelings - certainly he said a lot of stuff today that i wasn't expecting him to and he surprised me with saying how much he loved me and DS. I needed to hear that and have it reinforced. It still doesn't change the fact that he has rejected my proposal but was good to hear.

RufousBartleby - that's a good idea. When the dust settles I might suggest that. I do want to save this relationship one way or another and believe he does too.

solidgoldbrass & SheCutOffTheirTails - you may think I am being a complete idiotic doormat deluded fool but I don't believe that he is settling for me until someone better comes along and I do believe he truly loves me. I wouldn't want to be with him, and have more kids with him, if I didn't think this.

I'm very impressed by solid's ability to not only reach across space with her mind to read the OP's DP's subconcious but also to tell the future. With those kind of abilities solid you should think of setting up a premium-rate phoneline.

venusandmars - "Exploring his feelings helped me to feel less need to be married, and helped him to rationalise what was going on for him. But as I said, it took a lot of talking and listening and thinking about our own feelings." - exactly. To which I'd add, OP your feelings are just as important, he should know them too.

... though like you say, when feelings are a little more level .

My DH was determined he was never getting married again after his first disaster but within 11 months of having our baby we were married his whole outlook changed and he wanted everything done properly for our daughter and so did I.
TBH I think looking back though it doesn't matter it really doesn't, you are a family unit and a piece of paper makes no difference whatsoever, if he's really not keen no point in upsetting the apple cart.

Jesus if you can only keep your "family unit" together by not "upsetting the applecart" you have bigger problems than a very useful piece of paper and a public declaration of love and belonging can solve.

Oh rubbish, if it aint broken there's no need to cause upset by nagging somebody into submission, if he doesn't want to get married big deal.

If one member of a couple has spent years getting seriously upset that the other refuses to marry them and refuses to explain why, then it is broken.

What you are advocating is the "please, please love me! I ask nothing for myself, not even that you respect me, just pleeeeeease don't leeeeeeeave me" approach to getting a man to despise you.

I guess some people are happy with whatever scraps they are given, as long as they are in "a relationship".

You are being mellow dramatic, nobody has to give any reason other than they don't want to and respecting each others wishes is an important part of any equal relationship, nothing to do with accepting scraps it's about compromise which leads to happier relationships all round in my experience.
Desperation is begging somebody to marry you when they just don't want to and nobody has to justify that decision.

This is the trouble isn't it?

Engagement is still very much seen as something that the man may, if he so chooses, bestow upon his lucky girlfriend. And if he doesn't so choose she must shut up until he's ready, because if she tries to instigate a conversation she's nagging/pushing/upsetting the applecart for "a piece of paper". And calling marriage "a piece of paper" is so moronic I don't even know where to start with that little gem.

Frankly? Fuck that. How about having a conversation like a proper grownup fucking adult in an adult relationship and making a (huge, life-altering) decision together instead of waiting around like a pathetic, overgrown limp lettuce eh? How about that?

Sorry to be so strong about this but

There do seem to be certain patterns in human behaviour and this is one of them: the man who is happy to be in a longterm relationship but doesn't want to turn it into a marriage as that way (he feels) it will be harder for him to trot off when the perfect woman appears. I bet he would have been farting about in the same fashion WRT having children if the OP hadn't become unexpectedly pregnant.

After 13 or whatever years and a kid, yes he does have to justify his decision.

You know, I've seen so many couples get married at his request, the piece of paper is duly signed and then the relationship goes terribly wrong.

In contrast I know of many more couples who live perfectly happy in equal, loving relationships with children and joint assets and just get on with it.
I have the piece of paper and it made bugger all difference, we still have our ups and downs and either of us would walk out the door if we weren't happy.

Heather - look at these images and tell me marriage is meaningless. If you feel that your marriage "made bugger all difference", fine, but it doesn't follow that that is true for everyone. For most people marriage does make a difference in many ways, a huge difference. You have made serious, pubic promises to one another. You are legally and socially recognised as a married couple. That isn't nothing.

Just out of curiousity, if you weren't fucked why did you do it anyway? You could have set up the legalities for your DD another way than commiting to your then DP.

He's not respecting her wishes, though, is he?

He's listened to her cry for hours, repeatedly, over his refusal to marry her, and still he can't even give a reason why he won't.

Totally agree honey about calling a marriage a "piece of paper" being moronic. I don't even have a bit of paper, but my marriage means a great deal to me.

The bottom line for me -for once- seems pretty straightforward enough although I have to say a disclaimer first and that disclaimer is that if marriage is not important to either member of the couple, it is no reflection of their levels of commitment however, I feel that if one member of the couple sees it as important and- and this is a big 'and'-the other partner is committed to the relationship and wants it to be forever they will get married just to like, y'know' make the other one happy. I mean why not ? They might as well.
I believe all men will do this -all of them; they can be pretty straightforward and logical and if they are to be in it for life they think 'may as well get married if that is what the woman I love wants'.

Perhaps he was waiting for the right moment to propose, I don't think so, though, he will string you along perhaps until something better comes along. I think he wants to keep his options open.
I hope the mortgage is in joint names on paper .

Remember, a person who is not that bothered about marriage will do it if their long-term partner wants it.
And do not have a commitment ceremony; legally it means nothing and if you have to also go through matter of legally tying yourselves with wills etc on top then, frankly, you might as well get married.

"So you think I should leave him?"

mumsnet does have a reputation for shouting 'leave him' but in this case I think you are massively over-reacting. Yes, being married may be important to you but oyu say the relatonship is fine and lovely as it is so maybe you just need to ajust your expectations.

Though it's a shame he won't take your feelings into consideration or at least give you a good reason for not doing it.

Women in bad relationships where they are being treated like shit always say the relationship is lovely and their partner is a good man.

Doesn't make it true.

In a good, happy relationship, one person isn't having to adjust their expectations downwards because the other refuses to consider what they want.

No relationship is worth compromising yourself like that for.

This guy has been treating the OP as a "will do for now" girlfriend for 13 years because he relies on the fact that women are expected to "adjust their expectations" rather than insist they are treated well.

She almost stood up for herself and he played the (typical) crying hysterics game to remind her that she was not allowed to leave as his feelings are so much more intense and important than hers.

If he was committed to her, he would marry her. He's not.

He felt cornered on Friday night and the atmosphere was so bad over the weekend then any sudden acceptance/proposal from him would have been done in bad form and probably caused more problems. He also spoke last night about how he feels he's getting old etc. and that is part of it - I told him to grow up. We have a kid and we are not kids any more. I plan to talk to him again in a few months, now I've told him exactly how I feel and how things have changed for me since having our DS. I know I've shocked him in being 100% clear about my feelings and hopefully that will make him think. I need another while to sort my head out/deal with child etc. so I'm not making any rash decisions now. Going to Relate would help things. And there is the possibility that he might man up and surprise me on my birthday. Time will tell.
Apart from this one issue he does not treat me like shit and everything is great - the relationship is not bad at all. I do realise that this is not what is coming across here and that you may think I am deluding myself but I'm not.

And there is the possibility that he might man up .....

More like give in, is that really what you want a bullied proposal because it'll mean nothing at all.

No, it would mean something. He wouldn't be 'bullied' into anything he didn't want to do.

I'm afraid the next stage is probably going to be that this wretched man will dangle the prospect of The Proposal over your head like a doggy treat. He'll hint that he might be about to propose... and then not do so. And any time you criticize or disagree with him, he will insist that he had been about to propose and you did something wrong and now it's all spoiled, the mood's gone, etc. And nothing will change, because he still doesn't want to actually marry you.

And now we're back to thou must not bring up marriage for that makes one a bullying, nagging harridan, and the psychic is back.

Nellie love I think you've made the right decision overall, APW is awesome (read the archives too), put it all to one side til things have simmered, then there need to be conversations.

Thank you honeyandsalt, I think so too.Thanks for all your advice. I've plenty of reading to do and plenty of calm conversations to be had.