Tactics to deal with a Water Torturer please

[fuckmepinkandcallmerosie]

I know my ex is a water torturer, as defined by Lundy Bancroft.

I'm struggling to deal with him and I'd appreciate any tactics you lot have developed to deal with him?

It's hard to get someone who hasn't been through it to understand (I've an AIBU going at the moment that proves it) and I'd like to have the benefit of the wisdom and experience of you wise MNetters.

OMG do I know what you are on about!
Shine on Do not give him any money back. Tell him he is very wekcime to buy whatever he likes for his son with his own money, and not to use yours.

Fuckmepink Unfortunately even though you don't want your dds to get that fall out and disapointment of not going to the party, you cannot bail him out of it again. Get harder with your reactions towards him. Once he has to deal with the dds all weekend not being allowed to go because of him he will soon get it.
Tell your girls sorry but this weekend I cannot do it but as it's dads weekend ask him. Stop letting him make out you are the bad guy. Prime the girls with the definite idea that mum is unavailable this weekend so we will have to ask dad and don't answer text/calls from him .

Take that deep breath and do it.

I told him today that I was not going to be here to take DD to the party. She has cried buckets. I feel shite.

BUT me and DP are at Ascot on Friday and then London Sat/Sun - no way on this earth am I flying back from London to take a 9 year old to a birthday party that is just ridiculous.

I said to her you'll have to ask your Dad because I'm not here I'm away with DP.

What she has thought of, and I've agreed, is to leave DS my car and I'll get a cab to the airport and he can take her - if he agrees. He hasn't texted back yet but I don't see it being a problem. So it's a workaround of sorts.

well done re: telling your daughter. You wil feel a mixture of horrible guilt and waver a lot during this process but it won't last long in relation to their lifetime really and will be sooooo worth it!

You are still enabling him in a way by offeringyour ds to use your car, but at least it was arranged as a stand by with dd and not ex.
He and your girls will have to learn to deal with this, it is essential to learn how to deal with him don't you think!

Hve fun at ascot and don't worry about them it's the relationsip between dds and ex you're encouraging now by leaving them to it.

It is a good thing

I second the well done. Try not to facilitate in any way, though I do appreciate it is one step at a time. Brilliant that you had something so big planned. Seems like a useful strategy, at least until you break some of the patterns. Can you plan to be doing something important every weekend (even if it's just spending quality time with DP)? One technique is to write NO on each page of the diary so that when one of the DDs asks you to take them somewhere on a weekend when they are supposed to be with dad, the first thing you see is NO.

Don't forget that your DDs will also learn manipulative behaviour from their dad. I would expect a 9 year old to be upset about missing a party but NOT as distressed as you describe. Do you think she's being reasonable or is she pushing your guilt button? You really don't need to feel bad, you're not the one stopping her. If it was your weekend, she'd be going. IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT. Also, if you can really recognise that it's not your fault you will be in a much much better place to support her when she is disappointed by her dad, WHICH SHE WILL BE REPEATEDLY. He's not going to change just because you hope he will.

Secret - it's her BBFL's party. The other's she's missed she wasn't bothered about but this one is biggy for her. We fly back tonight. DP has flipped his lid and says "that fucking bastard is not going to have her in tears. We will work around it and DS is not going to miss out on his day out. Thank fuck those kids have you to give a shit." He never swears He also said he's answering the door to ex tomorrow and he's going to tell him to go fuck himself with a very big stick

rosie I know this is going to sound harsh, cos I can't think of a better way to put it, but now he's got you all jumping to his tune. It's great that your DP feels so strongly for your DD but not good that he is getting involved. You really really need someone around you to model detachment, not someone who is going to get caught up in your ex's games. It won't be good for your relationship in the long term.

Sorry don't know what BBFL stands for but guessing very significant. If so, they must be aware of the issue surely so would have been nice if they'd checked with you first. Not much help, I know, but you and your DP, who sounds lovely by the way, are the last people responsible for this.

And yes, she will be upset. Unfortunately, we can't protect our children from the fallout of separation, however hard we try.

And I do be aware that the less you react to ex the more he will up his game, at least in the short term. In fact, the fact that he is prepared to behave like this for a really significant party suggests that he may already be getting the message. My ex always manages to find something else but eventually, I know, there will be nothing left.

I agree with Secrets , i dont think your partner getting involved is a wise move , it will reward your ex for his bad behaviour . You are both confusing him with a normal person . A normal person would be upset or embarresed when confronted in this way. Your ex wont , because your reaction is EXACTLY what he wants . He will be thrilled , not embarresed .

The scenario with the kids is not unusual and something your going to have to deal with . While i understand why youve done what youve done re the party , i personally wouldnt have .Kids miss partys for all sorts of reasons and i personally wouldnt have gone to so much trouble over it . Borrowing cars and taxi fares would just be too much for a kids party .

I think i would have stated that she couldnt go for the obvious reasons and if she wanted she could have rang her dad up about it . At the moment your sheilding the kids from their dads emotional abuse , and sheilding your ex from the effects of that emotional abuse . Its understandable , but not something you can or should continue to do . These incidants you describe are not about partys or being late , theyre about him making you responsible for him , and him trying to make you look bad to your dcs . Had you said No to your daughters suggestions about the party you would have been the bad guy . You cant afford to let him undermine you like this and affect your relationship with your kids .

I think your dcs are old enough to communicate with him directly re picking up from school and stuff . They are also old enough to say to him that they cannot be late and need to be back for whatever time . They need to rightfully be a bit cross when he turns up late , and you need to make sure that they know its not acceptable to be hours late , or to opt out of arrangements . To do anything else is effectiveley setting them up to accept this treatment later in life .

Unfortunateley your children will meet people like this again and again and they will need to be able to spot manipulation when they see it and to know how to handle it . I would gently point out that when things happen on their dads weekend it is for him to sort out , and that you wont be held responsible for sorting it out . If he is not collecting them from school when he should be i would simply put a stop to it and id let the dcs know why . What really can he do about it ?

BFFL is Best Friend For Life - they are joined at the hip.

I know it seems ridiculous what we've done, but it's the start of doing things differently. DP and I have talked a lot about the whole scenario over the last couple of days and we've come to a few conclusions about how we are going to deal with things from here on.

For a start, if the kids have a party and it's his weekend and we're here then it's no big deal to take them to the party. Ditto if DD1 wants to go into town with her friends etc. If, however, we're away then it's a straight no, talk to your Dad.

WRT school, they will be given (again) contact details for him and me, and told who to contact on what days, and if they ring me on his time to say he hasn't collected them then they will be told to ring him or some of his contacts.

What has happened is that I've been trying to be flexible and easy going for the sake of the kids and that doesn't work with people like him. From here on in, if it suits me then I'll be flexible, if it doesn't I won't. And sometimes I won't be flexible even if it might suit me just because.

Things are going to change a lot with DP being here a lot more, we're getting a house together and he'll be living with me and there's going to be a lot of changes that the ex isn't going to like so I am expecting him to ramp it up.

While i can see your ideas on flexibility op i fear you are going to leave yourself open to further abuse by doing this . He will not see this as you being decent , he will assume that sometimes he can bully you and sometimes he cant , in a few years you will be having the same old battle .I think you need very clear boundrys here , ie , if its his weekend he takes responsibility or he takes the consequences which will probably be kids who are very annoyed with him .

I think i would be having an age apropriate chat with the dcs about who is responsible for what and who is in what role , and that the current situation cannot continue . If there is a party on dads weekend and dads not prepared to take them i would suggest that they have 2 options , they can either miss going to dads or miss the party . If that means they start to drop weekends he will soon start to change his attitude , he simply cannot have it all ways .

These idiots are like bratty spoilt toddlers in adults bodys . They cant stand not to be noticed or to not have their ridiculous demands met . Its took over 2 years to train mine , and a big part of that was stopping sheliding the kids from it , and making sure he was responsible for the consequences .Initially if he was late and the dcs were getting upset i would make excuses for him , hes probably stuck in traffic ect . If he was a bit unkind to them i would say he probably didnt mean it ect . Eventually i realised i was feeding the kids the same excuses i had fed myself during our marriage .

I started to say that yes , dads late again and its not ok , and that actually that was very rude for dad to say that . Instead of arriving here 2 hours late to a happy kid who was thrilled to see him , he got an upset kid who asked him why he was always late and why didnt he ring . Of course he blamed me , he claimed it was me that had upset them by daring to tell them the truth , but i didnt give a shit , i wasnt going to keep covering up for him and making myself look bad in the process . I was sick of being the bad guy .

A positive outcome in this is that my kids , who are a similar age to yours have excellant boundrys . If he has been thoughtless or unkind they will calmly say so stating they dont like it and that they would like an apology . This terrifys him . He is emotionally stunted and is frightened by the prospect of having any real sort of conversation so this alone keeps him in check nowadays .

Good post from Diggs.
You will still be enabling his behaviour and shielding the dds, which I know you naturally want to do but not in their favour in the long run. They will not thank you when they are older when they do find out what he is really like and the shcok could rebound on you.
This is going to be hard for you all, you when you see how upset they will be and them for them to realise what a shit their dad is but be strong and do what diggs says, go to dads or stay at yours if dad doesn't want to take them.

Can I jump in here, I haven't read all the posts, but have read enough to feel an awful sense of De Ja Vu. I kicked a WT out about 6 years ago, we were married 13 years. so have been through what you are going through now and it's crappy and at the time I would have given everything I had to see the idiot left on a deserted island somewhere.
With regards to the party and other events that she could miss out on because of his shit attitude. Take her, she should not miss out because her father is a dick head. In a few years she will realise that it is you that is doing these things for her and that he couldn't give a stuff. Trust me, I have two teen boys that have been through hell and back with me that wouldn't piss on their father if he was on fire. They know it was me going without to make sure they had the things they needed, they know it was me that had to change my plans at the last minute so they were stranded.
Let him fade out of the picture, you will all be better off for it.
just my 2 cents worth

weren't stranded.
typo

Just another thing, sorry I can't edit posts to add more bits in.
With him not picking your DD up from school like he is supposed to and other agreements he fails at, please make sure you are documenting all of this, ex took me to court 3 times for breaching orders and stating that I was denying him access, it wasn't the case, but what worked in my favour was that EVERYTHING was written in my diary, phone calls: who rang who, what time and duration, what was discussed etc
visits: time collected, who picked up or dropped off, what state the kids were in, clean, fed and so on. I mean document everything. Including the times that I had to drop what I was doing and collect a child from somewhere because on a whim he decided he was too busy. Or I had to cancel holidays because no he didn't want them the first week of the holidays he wanted them the 2nd, I now have my babies full time, it was shit and I hated the feeling of him "winning" time and again, but I realised that who cares, me winning a battle of wills with him isn't going to change his mind and make him realise he is an ass, he will just change tactics, and anyway ultimately I have won. He got bored because I wasn't a challenge and he moved on and we are free of him.

Rosie, it sounds as if you and your new partner are now both getting sucked into XH's control.You are feeding the fire instead of putting it out.

Do not rearrange.
Do not engage.
Do not model this sort of behaviour to your kids.

As someone posted your daughter is starting to learn how to manipulate.

Your plan to sometimes pick up the pieces and sometimes not is a terrible plan because it hurts your DC and keeps the whole thing turning.

She knows her Dad wouldn't take her and she was over the moon that we did take her and she told her friend "I only got to come because mummy and DP brought me daddy wouldn't bring me he's mean" (her friends said we thought you couldn't come)

So, I don't think she's manipulative. And as I said, this is temporary until the end of this school year, by September hopefully we'll be moving in together and things will all be changing. I have no problem with keeping her here and taking her to parties if that's what she wants and I can't see what I gain by sending her to her dad's when she doesn't want to go and would rather be here/at a party?

But now you are using your DD to get back at XH.

"I only got to come because mummy and DP brought me daddy wouldn't bring me he's mean"
You shouldn't be pleased a 9 year old is saying that, it's no way to score points .

Your DP also seems to be wanting to 'up the ante' instead of backing off!
What does he get out of wanting to exert his own control and rescue you and your DC ?

I didn't say I was pleased that she said tha where are you reading that I said I was pleased? I have no feelings about it - she was over the moon that we took her and that's it. We took her, we did the right thing by her and took her to the party, she told her friend what she felt, I did not comment on it

Her emotions and feelings about it are her own, I'm not going to influence her. She knows that her dad doesn't take her to stuff and he's selfish - her words not mine. I am very very careful not to criticise him and to just say factual things like "daddy has something else to do"

How is DP upping the ante and exerting his own control? I don't understand what you mean? Me and DP sat down and discussed how WE would deal with it moving forward, given that things are going to be changing with us erms being engaged and moving in together - he is involved and it wouldn't be the right thing to exclude him.

Rosie Sorry I haven't read whole of this thread yet - I remember your other thread (clothes etc with your DDs) and my xDP (not anywhere near as bad as yours but there are certain elements that ring a bell) and I have found something that works for me when xDP asks/tells me to remind him to do something - I just say Oh yes sure - er..can you remind me to remind you though or I might forget - all said very pleasantly, but it just shows up what a twat he is being for expecting to be reminded something the rest of us, as adults, would just remember to do or find a way of remembering to do (note or alarm in phone/calendar etc). Very childish but seems to have worked on mine....I even caught him beginning to say but you'll need to ....(would have finished remind me) the other day and he caught himself and shut up. Had to go into the kitchen to let out a teeny tiny laugh.

Will go back and finish reading!

I am very very careful not to criticise him and to just say factual things like "daddy has something else to do"

But that wasnt true was it and in a way thats sending the message that its ok for him to arse them about like this . . In fact her dad let her down and you had to pick up the slack . If you hadnt have done you possibly might have been the bad guy and thats not fair . He is manipulating your kids and you and i think your running the risk of training them to accept this sort of behaviour . I do know where your coming from , and your right in a way , why should your daughter miss out because hes an arsehole ? But then again...

I think theres a very fine line here between wanting to keep your kids from being upset ( which is understandable ) and refusing to be manipulated , and i think what might happen is that your kids will find that line themselves . Eventually they might become very vocal about being let down and used as a way to upset you and youll have to support them in this because it will be ok for them to rightly be upset .

When i was very young i was in your daughters position . My dad would do the same and would bad mouth my mum constantly and use me to cause as much disruption as possible . I knew what was happening but wasnt old enough to verbalize it , but it upset me a lot and caused me to feel very confused and angry . I didnt feel i could talk to my mum about it because i knew it would upset her but i was angry that she didnt do anything about it . When i hit my teens i cut him out , but even now i am still a little cross that no one intervened in this and that no one ever said " Look , what your dads doing isnt ok , how do you feel about it "?

I also dont think its a coincidence i met and married my own water torturer who did exactly the same to me and my kids . Why wouldnt i ? I had been well trained . Theres no easy answers here op , but i would be very aware that your kids learn boundrys and limits from you . If they see you accepting certain behaviours then it will be normal for them to do the same . I think it ok for you to gently say that its not ok for their dad to let them down instead of excusing him .

Diggs - it was true, he was playing cricket I apologise if I've not said that but he plays sport every saturday.

Is that not your DP getting involved and upping the ante then?

Why are you adding to the conflict and drama instead of dis engaging?

Your DC are mixed up in this - even if what DP said was in private, I'm sure your DC are aware of how he feels about their dad.

DP hasn't said a word in front of the kids, he wouldn't. He didn't do any of those things, he just had a word with ex out at the car, and unlike ex he didn't say it in front of DD DD was in the house with me.

Have none of you ever lost your cool and vented?

How am I upping the ante? At some point there has to be a line drawn and if that is upping the ante then I'm not going to apologise for that.

Because he will always be better at manipulating than you. It's part of who he is, he'd had years and years of practising and you are just starting out. You will never beat him at his game. The only way you can 'win' is to disengage. I completely understand the sense of victory that you feel when your DD says stuff like that but it's not a healthy route to pursue. What happens when you need to put a boundary in place and she says she prefers her dad (who puts no boundaries in place)? Your sense of self and achievement has to, ultimately, come from knowing that you are doing right by your DCs.

As someone else has said, you are confusing your ex with someone who gives a damn about someone other than himself.

And as for your DD manipulating, while it may be true that she isn't, I really don't think you are the best judge of this. After all, your ex is still manipulating you and you're still trying to come to terms with that. It is highly unlikely that she doesn't manipulate. I do not say this to judge either her or you but that DCs copy what they see, especially if they see that it works. She has spent a lot of time watching her dad get you to do what he wants and I think that you ignore that influence at your peril.

Hi

I just wanted to check in and see how things are going?

I'm just coming out of relationship with my one year old son due to domestic violence. I'm reading Lundy Bancrofts book and my ex fits this description exactly.

Hoping there's light at the end of the tunnel for copareting. At the moment things are just awful