Tactics to deal with a Water Torturer please

[fuckmepinkandcallmerosie]

I know my ex is a water torturer, as defined by Lundy Bancroft.

I'm struggling to deal with him and I'd appreciate any tactics you lot have developed to deal with him?

It's hard to get someone who hasn't been through it to understand (I've an AIBU going at the moment that proves it) and I'd like to have the benefit of the wisdom and experience of you wise MNetters.

How about just be ready for the phone call on the day he is due to pick them up when there's no after school club (unless your dd with the phone is able to text him to let him know before hand)
if school call and say he hasn't turned up then pick ip your dds and text ex saying 'i have picked up dds as school informed me they couldn't contact you. We will be at the house until x time for you to collect them' (give him an hour max). If he doesn't turn up within the hour go out with the dds!

Going forward I'd agree with communicating only by email.
Make sure both dds have a mobile phone and if they need to remind him or notify him of any changes they can do so direct so you don't have to.

So fmp - what do you think about my suggestion to have an alternative emergency pickup for him? Then school won't call you. That's how it should be anyway.

If he's always late, give him an hour's leeway (or however long you think reasonable) and then take the kids out. Make sure he knows that you have left, with a text. Or you go out on your own, get a babysitter in and make him pay.

Practical solutions my girl, think practical.

I am here on the day of the afterschool club. The school have 3 contacts for him (him and 2 others) and 3 for me (me and 2 others) but by default they ring me.

How do I make him pay for a babysitter? He would just say no I'm not paying and to go to a solicitor would cost more than I'd gain.

Why does the school ring you by default? That's a bit slack.

OK, pay yourself for the babysitter or get a friend to help out.

ah yes, if you remind them you are nagging and don't trust them or, in your case, controlling. if you don't remind them, it is your fault for not reminding them and they can't possibly be expected to remember first time. lose lose.

don't remind him. he is an adult. if he messes up he looks a prat. make sure school email/send the letters to him as well as you. (his own fault if he doesn't read them) make sure school ring his contacts on his days. make a list so they caan put it in the file alongside the contact numbers. talk to your children about how to handle being picked up late.

I also second giving him an hour to turn up, then going out with the dd's. you have made the children available for contact, his fault for not collecting. I suspect he will mess you around some other way in revenge... but the collective brain of mn is far more intelligent than one man.

post in relationships. aibu can be... ermm... less supportive...

think I will be buying a contact diary... sounds a fantastic idea!

I love the "collective brain"

I need to toughen up with the school and I need to toughen up with the kids.

The thing about the thread in AIBU is that unless you've been through it, you will NEVER get it.

Lots of sympathy for you rosie.

I had a water-torturing ex. Verbal put downs and character assassinations were his favourite method. I used to be terrified of him..that seems laughable now but I really was. I used to shake with fear at the thought of displeasing him so I completely understand where you are coming from :(

Mine doesn't sound as bad as yours though, but I think that's because he's now married and has another child (so focus is elsewhere), plus the distance of time (maybe).

My tactics for coping are to put EVERYTHING in writing. And disengage. Remember, his opinion of you doesn't matter. Also, I don't speak to him on the phone, ever, if I can help it.

Yes toughen up on the school. When they ring to say ex hasn't picked up, don't answer, they will have to get back to him as the girls know that he is supposed to pick them so it's his fault.
I know you don't like them to suffer but he is the one making them suffer and after a few times of the school ringing him and dds ringing him because you are taking a (well justified) back seat. he will get the message as he doesn't want to seem to be the bad guy.

Dis engageing is easier said than done. I amd doing it I say still doing it because there still some times when he rings out of the blue and revert back to the extrem palpitations that he provoked in me, but it is rare now.

Dis engage is the ONLY way. Write down where you can do this, use the school example and just do it.
Prep the girls, say there's no way I can pick you up tonight girls don't explain just make them prepared for their father to do what he needs to do.

The other problem is that DP isn't here all the time he works away and he's pretty soft with the kids, and they're mad keen to see him, so he isn't always tough on the no kids this weekend stuff either.

I know I need to get hard as nails in a sense though. And put the ball firmly in ex's court.

It doesn't really matter what he does (h&s excepting).
But he will get it in the neck with his girls every time he lets them down, won't he. If they want to be with him so much he is the one who will have to deal with the fall out of him being late them missing out on something because him and them forgot some kit or other.
At the moment you enabling this process. Take a deep breath and dis engage.
Tell the girls each and ever Friday sorry can't pick you up tonight so they will let dad know, and don't answere the school.
Your girls will get it the first week and they will let him know.

You have to dis engage, it's your new mantra, d.i.s.e.n.g.a.g.e.

You have to stop seeing him for swapover and get it done via school/third parties. Until you do this, he's never going to stop messing you about and you're never going to recover. He's morely likely to be embarrased if school regularly sees him fuck up and then behave himself. And tell school your plans and ask that if he doesn't show within a reasonable period (ten mins) that they call you and you collect. They then tell him what happened if he shows much later. He'll either have to get with the programme or stop seeing his kids, but leave that up to him

I'm also struggling to deal with some similar behaviour from my ex. First time I've come across the term water torturer but that describes some of his behaviour pretty well (yes, I'm still in relative denial).

I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of my problems stem from wanting to protect the DCs from the fall out of our separation and also his shitty behaviour. But I can't change either of those things and, in trying to I suspect I'm actually making things worse. At some point, they will have to deal with his behaviour and by 'protecting' them I suspect that in some ways I am actually enabling him. By making up for his failings, I wonder what message the DCs get. I'm beginning to worry that they think that his behaviour is something to be worked round rather than challenged directly.

I had an unpleasant situation quite recently to do with getting DD to and from a party on ex's weekend and another parent contacted me to organise lift sharing. I called ex but he hadn't done anything to sort this out (2 days before) and I ended up spending about a hour sorting it all out and then an hour and a half in the middle of the only day I get a fortnight driving her to her party. I was fuming but I eventually realised that I should have said when the parent rang 'thanks for ringing but DD is with her dad that weekend, can you call him to make arrangements.' If DD had missed going to a party she wouldn't have been happy but it wouldn't have been the end of the world. She would also have been clear about who was responsible for that. And that doesn't mean that I am trying to undermine their relationship but it's not my job to prop it up either. In protecting her, I think I run the risk of giving her the message that it's my job to make up for his shortcomings. And actually, I think that it's part of my job to ensure that, eventually, she sees his behaviour for what it is, learns to protect herself and ensures that she runs a mile if she sees any hint of this in her relationships.

Have just realised that my dad was a water torturer too so have an absolute duty to break the cycle even if I have no idea how I will find the strength to do that.

I do understand at least a little of what you are going through and I don't think there are any easy answers. He picked you probably because of your very 'reasonableness' and that is now stopping you from truly recognising his behaviour. But as others have said, more eloquently than me, he is not reasonable and will not respond reasonably so you need to stop expecting it. Doesn't stop it hurting like hell though.

Yay secretskills! Brilliant and inspiring post. You have made a massive realisation and I think it will make your life and your kids life a lot lot better. I know a lot of separated parents and the most successful ones make responsibility very clear so there's no room for confusion/buckpassing/nonsense.

I eye rolled when I saw yet another way to describe an ex who is ' a bit of a cock'

I then had a little google of water torturers. This describes my ex - the father of my youngest - to an absolute T. It is just him.. nothing has come closer to describing how he is and just how very difficult it is to deal with him.

I cope most of the time by keeping a distance - as much as I can get away with whilst having to remain pleasant etc for the sake of our 4 year old. It is very important to me that my son is never effected by how his father treats me. And let's face it, he won't ever spot it anyway. My ex is just so fucking reasonable.

Apart from the fact he isn't.

Here is his latest gem...

He pays me maintenance without fail every month. He ups it when he has a pay rise and passes on 15% of any bonus. He pays 15% of his salary. It is quite a lot really - £300 ish a month. So... he is a good guy who PROVIDES! Everyone says so. Such a great Dad. Although he carefully pays the minimum only and threatened to ' cause me harm in some way ' when I suggested we put it through CSA. I suggested this because he kept threatening to withhold it, and , when I annoyed him, he took it off standing order and made me ask him verbally - and nicely - for it.

However he has decided - last week - that he wants some 'control' over this money. That he wants to buy things for our son on occasion and then 'dock it ' from my maintenance. He did this last week - bought DS a padlock for his bike then sent me a text telling me he would be docking the money. No ask, no request, no nothing.

I have told him that maintenance is paid to the resident parent and that the non resident parent does NOT have control over it.. he says that may be the case by law but it is ' fucking insane and ludicrous ' that he can't buy his son something from time to time without me ' going mental '

I didn't go mental. I asked him to call me first before he went spending my money. he turned this round by saying that, if this is the case, I must call him when I buy something for our son.

I have no choice but to just give him the money. I don't want the argument, I want him to just go away.

Sorry for rant.

Shiney all I can say that's exactly what mine is like. I ws emailed a spreadsheet to fill in detailing what the child benifit was spent on.

It is so draining and hard to deal with. And unless you've encountered a man like this you just cannot understand.

Sympathy and hugs all round.

Oh and dd2 has a birthday party on Saturday it's "his" weekend so dd1 recurs him to let him know. He said no. Dd2 has been in tears Since she found out

yes, it is draining.

My ex would be understanding of the birthday party. he is WONDERFUL with our son. Nothing is too much trouble in terms of taking him places/sitting and playing with him/ ensuring they are doing stuff that DS enjoys.

But despite me being reasonable, accommodating, nice and pleasant, he detests something about me. I am careful not to show him how he makes me feel - I am strong and will stand up to him on the surface... I mean, you have to don't you?

But I still get that sinking feeling when I see his name on a text mesage because i think ' what now? What mad demand is he going to make now? '

Yes, sympathies to all.

I feel very cross with myself. I'm a very strong person. mentally strong. Always have been. So I am furious and disappointed with myself that I haven't got a handle on this yet.

I can send you a copy of The Spreadsheet if you think it would help

Seriously though, it's the hardest sort of abuse to deal with because when you try to explain it to people, it's all so subtle that you - well I feel I do anyway - I sound like a control freak nutter. Which is what happened on my AIBU thread

Now, I can see him liking the spreadsheet idea. Sort of.

No, it's a very 'creeping' sort of abuse. I have realised that my Ex is jealous of my lifestyle [ on some level ] and dislikes the lack of control he has over how i bring up our son and the day to day decisions i make. So, to try and redress this, he does as much as he can with what he can to cause me misery. He mocks my tone of voice, he mocks the words I choose to use. He is patronising and condescending to me - speaks to me s l o w l y like I am particularly hard of hearing when he doesn't feel i have grasped a specific point. Accuses me of being hysterical. < this is laughable. I am the very last person that you'd call hysterical >

I will win this one though. Of that, I am sure! And so will you!

We will in the end Shiney

But I hate trying to get people to understand what it's like, that I find frustrating. Even on here, posters don't "get" it, and unless you have dealt with one of these men you just don't.

What ex wants to happen this weekend is for me to give up my plans for the weekend and be here to take DD to her party. It gives him a level of control over my life and what I do via the kids and it drives me up the walls.

I have experienced some dysfunctional relationships in the past and the hardest thing I found was getting the other person "out of my head". I automatically ran every thought, decision and action through a filter of "how is X going to react to this?". It can take a some time to get out of that habit.

From your posts I still get the feeling that you are following the deeply ingrained habit of fitting in with your XP rather than doing what you want. Ultimately does it matter if he thinks you are unreasonable, controlling, mad etc, his opinion of you is utterly irrelevant. Keep records of his behaviour etc so if he ever tries to formally argue you've been unreasonable you can show that you agreed a fair contact schedule but he failed turn up for contact or turned up late or didn't return the children on time.

He lost any right to expect you to respect his wishes or feelings on the day he stopped respecting your rights and wishes.

I suspect once you have stopped caring about what he thinks about you, you will be able to respond in a more detached way to his extreme twattishness which will probably confuse and irritate him in equal measure (and you won't give a stuff about how he feels).

Yes, your plans and life away from kids will mean nothing to him. He won't care. And don't bother trying to reason with him. The first step to it is understanding that there is NO reasoning with this type of man. There just isn't.

It is frustrating yes. I had a nightmare about him last night. Was hideous. But I will never ever accept that one man will beat me and this keeps me going. I think of him as little as possible. I converse with him as little as possible. This is a bad few days really after his whole ' I want some control over my money ' thing yesterday but it's only fuckng money. I'll make sure he won't win the long game.

And you do need to think of it as a game sometimes.

I really hate him.

I havent read the other thread but I can see many similarities in the water torturer description to my ex who was formally diagnosed with a peronsality disorder after we spilt.

I can totally understand what the difficulties in dealing with people like this are. My ex doesnt absolutely fit the description because eventually the "mask" slipped and gradually, one by one, his friends and family realised what it was like. And what he was like. And having to deal with it on an every day basis is so impossible, so torturous, frustrating and just neverending.

Unfortunately I have no practical advice to offer - we had no dc so once I managed to get the emotional vampire out of my life I cut all ties and spent a year rebuilding my life (despite him deliberately moving into the house opposite mine) I found that indifference or feigned indifference was my best ali and defence. Total apathy rebuffed him like nothing else would.

FMP the birthday party on Saturday is an opportunity to start allowing your DDs to know the truth about their father. I know it breaks your heart to see your child in tears and so upset but she has to understand that it is NOT YOU who are denying her this party but her father. You must not facilitate him by giving up your plans just so that he can get away with it again; that is the control he has over you.